Are you Pro-Life or Pro-Abortion

[IowaGarrett]

Mental activity? I will play this straightforward. No mental activity in conventional terms. BUT, if you read my previous posts you would know that I do not base my argument on mental activity. I only addressed it because someone else did, someone who was ill informed on the mental activity of the fetus. I did so in an informative nature. I find that argument without merit.

Science has defined many things as alive which have no mental activity. I noted some of them in the previous post. I reposted it only one or two messages away from the one that you chose to reply to... Although some would like to sit on a cogito ergo sum stance to life, and they are welcome to do so, they are absolutley arguing on non-evidence based terms. Is that the stance you would like to take?


[/I][/I]

You are absolutely correct, the fetus does start to mentally develop within the womb. The interaction between the fetus and the external world (as the fetus perceives it through the womb) is very important for post-natal development.

But there is absolutely no mental activity prior to gastrulation is there?

 

[snaFU]

Nice biased poll....pro-abortion. More like pro-choice.

 

[AisA1787]

Nice biased poll....pro-abortion. More like pro-choice.

hey, it's better than pro-life/anti-life

 

[WilliamC]

You are taking on a very judgemental perspective in assuming that you know all there is to life, and that people with downs syndrome are somehow of lesser value or worthiness - or would even be better off had they never been born.

You must be confusing me with someone else as I never said that.

I merely stated the fact they they are but one of hundreds of types of chromosomal mutants that are found in nature.

By genetic definition they are not "wild-type" humans.

In fact they are a big evolutionary step towards being a different species altogether.

But they should have equal rights under the law, and with that should come equal responsibility for their actions.

Christians believe that all life has an inherent equal value that goes beyond the body that your soul resides in.

Far be it for me to speak for you, but as for myself, I have no immortal soul.

Everything I am as an individual and a person depends upon my brain and body.

When my brain shuts down for the final time that's the end of my existence.

Its not our job to judge other people in this way, and we shouldn't be in the business of it, whether its the death penalty, abortion, or murder in general.

Who am I judging?

Except god perhaps, who I think would be a real evil being if he were to allow the unborn to suffer for sins they did not commit.

Horrible things can happen during development, whether through intrinsic genetic mutations or through extrinsic environmental agents, and sometimes when these malformed fetuses are born they live depressingly short and painful lives.

If you have a strong stomach google images under teratology and tell us if you think all fetuses which are going to be born so severly deformed that they have no chance for post-natal survival should never be aborted.

However, I agree with Ron Paul that Roe vs. Wade should be overturned and that abortion be dealt with at the State level, not the Federal level.

 

[Rangeley]

You must be confusing me with someone else as I never said that.

I merely stated the fact they they are but one of hundreds of types of chromosomal mutants that are found in nature.

By genetic definition they are not "wild-type" humans.

In fact they are a big evolutionary step towards being a different species altogether.

But they should have equal rights under the law, and with that should come equal responsibility for their actions.



Far be it for me to speak for you, but as for myself, I have no immortal soul.

Everything I am as an individual and a person depends upon my brain and body.

When my brain shuts down for the final time that's the end of my existence.



Who am I judging?

Except god perhaps, who I think would be a real evil being if he were to allow the unborn to suffer for sins they did not commit.

Horrible things can happen during development, whether through intrinsic genetic mutations or through extrinsic environmental agents, and sometimes when these malformed fetuses are born they live depressingly short and painful lives.

If you have a strong stomach google images under teratology and tell us if you think all fetuses which are going to be born so severly deformed that they have no chance for post-natal survival should never be aborted.

However, I agree with Ron Paul that Roe vs. Wade should be overturned and that abortion be dealt with at the State level, not the Federal level.

I was hardly confusing you for someone else, for it was you who made this statement:

Why does god let mutated life even start to begin with?

Asking why he would allow it to occur at least makes the implication that you are judging their existence to be lesser than yourself.

As to your statements regarding the issue of a soul, I was merely explaining the Christian beleif that life has an inherent value, beyond any of ones physical characteristics. While I can respect that you have different views, this doesnt really have anything to do with my point that under a Christian belief system, someone with downs syndrome has just as much value as someone without it.

Finally, as to your comment that that such fetuses "suffer for sins they did not commit," I already addressed part of this earlier, in regards to the miscarriage point you raised.

I think the disconnect here is that you see death as being a punishment in itself, whereas Christians don't. Christians believe that because death can come at any time, you need to have your soul ready for the next life - ie, accepting Christ. Someone could die at 100, 80, 50, 20, and whether they have accepted him or not will determine if they go to Heaven or not. Because people can die at any moment, you cant say "oh I will convert later, I would rather have some fun now."

But then, of course, there are certain stages of development when people are incapable of making this choice. People have different views about what happens to, say, a child who is miscarried, or aborted. I happen to think they get into heaven just fine. But regardless, this is the general Christian idea about death.

And beyond this, suffering in itself should not be viewed as being a punishment whenever it happens. The central figure of Christianity suffered greatly, yet committed no sins and thus would not have "deserved punishment." Its my view that, just like he was rewarded for suffering through the unjust treatment, so too will those who suffer unjustly today.

I dont say any of this in order to change your mind, but merely to explain the general Christian thinking behind it, hopefully in a way that makes sense. I personally think reasonable people can disagree on issues like this, and I have no doubt that this can be the case here as well.

 

[dvictr]

pro-life
or
pro-death

 

[Tdcci]

Nice biased poll....pro-abortion. More like pro-choice.

Actually, "pro-choice" is biased. You're manipulating language to make abortion seem softer, just as you would use "passing away" instead of "died" to a sensitive window, or how you would use the term "energy exploration" instead of "oil drilling" to appease environmentalists; You're no better than Frank Luntz and the FOX pundits. People like to think they have choice, and they think other people should have choice. You use the words "abortion rights", because people like the idea of having rights. The solution is to use neutral, objective phrases like "Pro abortion" and "Anti abortion". You can add clauses for rape, incest, whatever you like, but when it's time to make the laws it's either legal (ignore the 10th amendment) or not (obey the 10th amendment).

 

[alexpasch]

This issue is the stupidest issue on the planet. The world has much bigger things to worry about. Paul's stance is correct from a legal perspective, not necessarily a moral one.

 

[Theocrat]

A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words

Here's the truth of this moral dichotomy (WARNING: Graphic pictures ahead): Are you

Pro-Life?

or

Pro-Abortion ("Pro-Choice")?

 

[MsDee]

Nice biased poll....pro-abortion. More like pro-choice.

I agree with this statement

Actually, "pro-choice" is biased. You're manipulating language to make abortion seem softer

And YOU and the OP are manipulating it to be something that in your minds that pro-choice is "worse". You can not tell someone how they think or perceive something. And that makes you just as bad as them.

Here's my grip:
My body, my choice. I think people are so taboo about it for religious reason. "Well that's killing a life and that's a sin". Alright fine, that a sin to you. But maybe not to me or to the next person. You can't force someone to accept your beliefs and ideals because YOU think their right.
After all, isn't is in the constitution about there being a separation of STATE and CHURCH?

If you, Dr. Paul or anyone else wants to be Pro-Life, that's fine believe whatever will make you happy, but please don't force me to accept someone else's belief.

 

[Tdcci]

Theocrat, you should link (not directly embed) those pictures, for the squeamish.

 

[ZenX]

^^^ Pathos ftw. Lol. You should show images of a woman dying of sepsis from an illegal abortion.

 

[Tdcci]

Here's my grip:
My body, my choice.

NOT your body, NOT a choice. You own your own body, but not the body of your child. Make no mistake, the state does not want to touch your [sexual disease ridden] body, but it has an interest in protecting the life of its citizens.

I think people are so taboo about it for religious reason. "Well that's killing a life and that's a sin". Alright fine, that a sin to you. But maybe not to me or to the next person. You can't force someone to accept your beliefs and ideals because YOU think their right.
After all, isn't is in the constitution about there being a separation of STATE and CHURCH?

While many pro-lifers are religious, it is unfair to say that all of them are religious. I am not religious, but I have a respect for human life, and it is a matter of human life and the rule of law, not morality. Strawman.

If you, Dr. Paul or anyone else wants to be Pro-Life, that's fine believe whatever will make you happy, but please don't force me to accept someone else's belief.

You can believe whatever you want as long as you don't abort. If the child decides, at a later date he wants to be aborted he can commit suicide. Don't make that CHOICE for him.

 

[Tdcci]

^^^ Pathos ftw. Lol. You should show images of a woman dying of sepsis from an illegal abortion.

And that's supposed to make us favor legal abortion? If the state were to legalize murder, they would definitely be cleaner, and the murderers could plan things so they wouldn't get hurt from self-defense attempts.

 

[ZenX]

Slippery slope much?

 

[Tdcci]

Slippery slope much?

I didn't mean that once abortion was legalized other things would be, I meant that while legal abortions would be safer for the murderer, legal [other] murders would be safer for the murderer, so it isn't a very good argument.

 

[allyinoh]

If you, Dr. Paul or anyone else wants to be Pro-Life, that's fine believe whatever will make you happy, but please don't force me to accept someone else's belief.

And don't force others to use terminology that suits you. If someone wants to say pro-abortion, that's their right. If I want to say abortion is murder, that's my perrogative.

You can say pro-lifers shouldn't force you to accept their beliefs but you should do the same.

 

[allyinoh]

For the people who support a woman's right to abort her baby, what do you think about a person who kills a pregnant woman being charged with two counts of murder-one for the woman and one for the unborn baby?

 

[Tdcci]

For the people who support a woman's right to abort her baby, what do you think about a person who kills a pregnant woman being charged with two counts of murder-one for the woman and one for the unborn baby?

The woman gets to decide whether the baby's human or not if it's convenient for her

 

[Matt_R]

I thought we had many more realists here. Many of you are beginning to become caught up in your own moral ideals, and neglect to actually analyze the information. Whether or not abortion is legal, it is going to happen. This is really a debate in whether you want abortion to happen in a backalley with a closehanger or in a sanitary abortion clinic with legally liable doctors. Making abortion illegal will do the same thing making drugs illegal has done, create a legally uncontrollable black market.