Are you in favor of abolishing the police?

[heavenlyboy34]

You didn't read the post I quoted, he wanted private security forces for every roadway. How in the world would that be practical?

I don't know because I'm not an entrepreneur who specializes in that. Most likely, such security would be handled in the most practical way possible. Something like mall security adapted to roadways. We know that entrepreneurs can handle the calculation problem (unlike central planning authorities), so we have to wait till someone with the necessary expertise studies the problem and creates a solution.

 

[Henry Rogue]

I don't think it is any secret where I stand on the question. Abolish the very institution.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Way late to the discussion, but yes. Hell yes.

Your tardiness is noted and reported.

 

[Origanalist]

I don't know because I'm not an entrepreneur who specializes in that. Most likely, such security would be handled in the most practical way possible. Something like mall security adapted to roadways. We know that entrepreneurs can handle the calculation problem (unlike central planning authorities), so we have to wait till someone with the necessary expertise studies the problem and creates a solution.

Why do we have to wait? I think most of us can chew gum and walk at the same time. People make shit too complicated IMO.

 

[Origanalist]

Your tardiness is noted and reported.

Another demerit? OK...................

 

[Antischism]

These imaginary tycoons of yours must have endlessly deep pockets to be able to sustain such control. What exactly is the scenario here? The tycoon is forking out loads of cash to monopolize a security agency, and all competitors, and the passive masses continue to fund him so that he can oppress them via third party?

Of course, ideally there'd be no State, and thus the volatile market absent corporatism, coercive monopolization, barriers to entry, and other State interventions of this nature, on top of a rearmament of the citizenry, would make this whole hypothetical virtually impossible as far as I can tell. This is not to say that there wouldn't be a time needed for market experimentation and such, but it tends to be pretty good at satisfying demands even under such an interventionist State as we have now, so I can only assume its levels of efficiency and productivity, as well as its ability to satisfy demand would dramatically increase absent the State.

The real problem would be foreign States propping up dictators and warlords, like the US has been doing for decades. Then again, they might ultimately end up fucking themselves over a la USSR.

And what's to stop wealthy, privately owned businesses from hiring private police to legitimize force against workers if they should decide to protest? Do the workers then hire a competing group of private police, inciting a shoot-out? Oh, well, they sort of can't if they don't have the money and they certainly won't get the best representation when wealth can buy out the private courts and police. I don't trust a private army any more than I trust a state-sponsored army. They will shoot on sight and get away with it. Those predisposed towards taking on a position that polices and judges individuals for money and in what's essentially a gang will almost always have a thirst for exercising their authority over others, while us mundanes are oppressed.

Not only can they be bought out to do the nefarious bidding of those with plenty of wealth, but they can also be controlled through the promise of job positions, status or power. Just take a look at Henry Ford's private police and the way they murdered and oppressed workers for an example of private police being no better than State police.

 

[Origanalist]

And what's to stop wealthy, privately owned businesses from hiring private police to legitimize force against workers if they should decide to protest? Do the workers then hire a competing group of private police, inciting a shoot-out? Oh, well, they sort of can't if they don't have the money and they certainly won't get the best representation when wealth can buy out the private courts and police. I don't trust a private army any more than I trust a state-sponsored army. They will shoot on sight and get away with it. Those predisposed towards taking on a position that polices and judges individuals for money and in what's essentially a gang will almost always have a thirst for exercising their authority over others, while us mundanes are oppressed.

Not only can they be bought out to do the nefarious bidding of those with plenty of wealth, but they can also be controlled through the promise of job positions, status or power. Just take a look at Henry Ford's private police and the way they murdered and oppressed workers for an example of private police being no better than State police.

Frankly I would much rather take my chances with Henry Ford's Po-Po's.

 

[Cabal]

And what's to stop wealthy, privately owned businesses from hiring private police to legitimize force against workers if they should decide to protest? Do the workers then hire a competing group of private police, inciting a shoot-out? Oh, well, they sort of can't if they don't have the money and they certainly won't get the best representation when wealth can buy out the private courts and police. I don't trust a private army any more than I trust a state-sponsored army. They will shoot on sight and get away with it. Those predisposed towards taking on a position that polices and judges individuals for money and in what's essentially a gang will almost always have a thirst for exercising their authority over others, while us mundanes are oppressed.

Not only can they be bought out to do the nefarious bidding of those with plenty of wealth, but they can also be controlled through the promise of job positions, status or power. Just take a look at Henry Ford's private police and the way they murdered and oppressed workers for an example of private police being no better than State police.

Workers could just quit. Why would they want to work for such an asshat? If the market's free, it's not like they'll have too much trouble finding alternative employment. Then the psycho tyrant tycoon you're imagining will have zero production, and thus no income with which to needless throw away on his own private army.

I'm sorry, but this whole scenario just doesn't make sense. Unless there is some huge economic incentive for this crazy tycoon to be screwing over his own business, and demonizing himself in the public eye, and unless there's some huge economic incentive for the private security firm to ostracize all of their other current/potential clients, and demonize themselves in the public eye, I don't see why they'd ever engage in the absurd behavior you're suggesting here.

I mean, anyone can come up with hypothetical doomsday scenarios that don't really make much sense. I don't see how that's a valid argument against private security, especially since there are current and historical working examples of non-State private security working even within a State-dominated nation.

I think so long as State corporatism exists, some semblance of your scenario here might be practically feasible, but again, ideally there'd be no State, and thus no corporatism to facilitate what you're talking about. But again, then the potential threat is that of foreign States, but the US is geographically one of the safest regions in the world right now, so that's not as much of an issue as it might be if we were say, in Africa or the Middle East. Massive oceans east and west, Canada north, Mexico south. Not exactly in a high threat zone over here.

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

I'm just asking whether you think that government police should exist at any level.

If by "government police" you mean police complying with the law and constitution, we don't have it, so it can't very well be abolished. Or do you just mean outlaws wearing badges?

 

[fr33]

It would really be nice to have a number to call besides 911 when you need an ambulance or fire truck. Actually in my area we do have a direct number to call the fire department. But not one for the EMTs unfortunately. If you need an ambulance and call 911, the over abundance of pigs on duty show up before the ambulance does and all they usually do is make things even more complicated.

 

[DamianTV]

Authority must have some form of Accountability, and Self Accountability doesn't count, in fact, it is part of what contributes to the "Just-Us System".

 

[69360]

Similar to how gated communities have rent-a-cops, or their own private neighborhood security; or similar to how retail chains, hotels, and all sorts of private businesses have their own security in their various locations; or similar to privatized security services that are now operating in Detroit.

I don't know because I'm not an entrepreneur who specializes in that. Most likely, such security would be handled in the most practical way possible. Something like mall security adapted to roadways. We know that entrepreneurs can handle the calculation problem (unlike central planning authorities), so we have to wait till someone with the necessary expertise studies the problem and creates a solution.

So what do you guys propose we do when Blackwater Xe or whatever they call themselves these days shoots and kills Grandpa for going 1 mph over the speed limit. They now have tanks and automatic weapons and are accountable to nobody but the property owner. Is sheriff Andy Taylor going to arrest them for killing grandpa with his 6 shooter? Nope now the sheriff needs his own tanks and automatic weapons to counter your "private security"

See how fast it spirals out of control? Your ideas only work in a libertarian fantasy world.

 

[brandon]

This is a stupid question.

 

[tod evans]

So what do you guys propose we do when Blackwater Xe

Without federal money Blackwater is out of business.

This idea that federally funded cops keep folks safe is absolutely insane.

There is realistically no difference between Blackwater and the NYPD other than which piece of turf they protect.

 

[osan]

LOL @ those who want competing police services. One is hard enough to keep accountable.

Nice. I agreed strongly with this. Some go too far with putting everything into a competitive market.

There should be no police, but if you are going to have them this is how I would structure such entities:

1. Their ONLY purpose would be to investigate crimes and accusations of same.
2. They would have no power to arrest under any circumstance whatsoever beyond that of any other citizen, if even that.
3. They would have no power to circumvent the BoR.
4. On duty, they would be perforce unarmed. This is a trust issue and such people can never be trusted.
5. Upon discovering evidence of crime sufficient in their estimation for charges, the information is presented to a grand jury.
6. If grand jury agrees, a warrant is issued by them and the sheriff is called to muster a posse and execute the warrant.
7. They could not be represented by a union in any manner or degree for any purpose whatsoever.
8. If they stand accused, they are on their own in terms of representation for defense.

In short, they would be on the tightest leashes, fitted with chokers. The punishments for misconduct would be harsh such that these investigators would quake in their boots at the very thought of violating the rights of others. Compensation would be determined by the market and their numbers would be very strictly limited, though I have not given this any further thought.

 

[osan]

Police were not set up to control the people. That is where your thinking is flawed. They were set up to uphold the law and protect and serve the people--public servants. That being said Sheriffs and Sheriff's deputies could do the job.

Did you know that the Sheriff has more power than the Executive Branch of Government?

Actually, no. Originally, police had a single purpose, to keep the peace. That is why they were called "peace officers" and not law enforcement.

Police as they exist today have no place in a free and civil land.

 

[69360]

Without federal money Blackwater is out of business.

This idea that federally funded cops keep folks safe is absolutely insane.

There is realistically no difference between Blackwater and the NYPD other than which piece of turf they protect.

These guys wanted private landowners and private road owners to pay for security, not the government. That would get out of hand real fast.


I don't want federally funded police. I don't want militarized police. I want old fashioned local police that do their job and are accountable to the people. It's worked for generations in the US and there is no reason to change that.

 

[phill4paul]

They now have tanks and automatic weapons and are accountable to nobody but the property owner.

You mean like it stands today? Property owners being the federal, states and local governments?

 

[Origanalist]

So what do you guys propose we do when Blackwater Xe or whatever they call themselves these days shoots and kills Grandpa for going 1 mph over the speed limit. They now have tanks and automatic weapons and are accountable to nobody but the property owner. Is sheriff Andy Taylor going to arrest them for killing grandpa with his 6 shooter? Nope now the sheriff needs his own tanks and automatic weapons to counter your "private security"

See how fast it spirals out of control? Your ideas only work in a libertarian fantasy world.

Somebody hasn't been paying attention.

 

[Danke]

Another demerit? OK...................

Don't worry, nobody reads his reports.