Are You Aware of Your ‘Thin Privilege?’

You don't have a washboard now. You were 18 years old and active. You can't eat like that and get results if you aren't young and active.

Ain't THAT the doggone truth. :p :D

But that's changing as we speak. Finally putting down the cigarettes was a part of an overall plan to get back into 'fighting shape.' I know the world is going to an ugly place and I do not plan on being soft and sedentary when we get there. I'm not precisely sure how to get back into shape from my current condition, but I wholeheartedly intend to start working out 1-2 hours a day, 7 days a week as of Friday and ongoing. Now figuring out exactly what that workout is going to look like...that I do not know yet. :)
 
Diet is so important Gunny. The biggest weight loss 'gains' I've seen were as a result of diet changes along with the exercise I was already doing. If you don't need it, cut it out. Sugars (real or artificial), salt, snacks, anything processed, anything that comes in plastic. You're good on bacon however. ;)
 
Ok, I get what you're saying.

But fundamentally, people need to understand that certain foods are categorically bad and should never be eaten. They're basically poison.

No one should ever have french fries. Ever. No one should ever eat ice cream. Cake? Maybe once a year on your birthday. No reason to ever eat potato chips. Fast food -- get a grilled chicken sandwich, no mayo.

If you can eat completely clean, then yes, you can have as much as you want.

Thank you for the laugh.

Yeah, cake and fried foods and baked potato chips are poison, but you somehow think that if you get a "grilled" chicken sandwich and skip the mayo, it's not poison.

When was the last time you saw smoke coming from McDonald's or Wendy's? Weird. How do those "grilled" sandwiches get grilled, then? Well at least they use healthy bread!

Again, thank you for the laugh. Lord knows people have been dying from eating cake and baked potato crisps for centuries.
 
If I have to eliminate coffee, I think I'll rather stay fat.

Honestly, the Mark Sisson quote makes me not want to be thin. That's just depressing.

I'd think an ex-Marine could have the discipline to cut out anything.
 
Thank you for the laugh.

Yeah, cake and fried foods and baked potato chips are poison, but you somehow think that if you get a "grilled" chicken sandwich and skip the mayo, it's not poison.

When was the last time you saw smoke coming from McDonald's or Wendy's? Weird. How do those "grilled" sandwiches get grilled, then? Well at least they use healthy bread!

Again, thank you for the laugh. Lord knows people have been dying from eating cake and baked potato crisps for centuries.
As it was explained to me, the chicken is grilled professionally, flash frozen, and heated to order at the restaurant.
 
First, Enoch, let me just request again any good research showing that your recommended strategy of consciously and carefully keeping calories below energy expenditure rate but above basal matabolic rate will lead to long-term weight loss. Just show me any reason to believe this. If there is no reason to believe it, I will (surprise!) not believe it.

That is, in fact, what humans do. That's how the system works, Enoch.

If the system doesn't work, the solution isn't to try to monkey-wrench the symptom into changing via heroic expenditures of raw will and determination. It's to fix the underlying system failure.

It is absurd to describe a mild, temporary calorie deficit as requiring a "heroic expenditure of raw will and determination." It is temporary - once you've lost the weight, you can increase caloric consumption to your total daily energy expenditure level.

People eat for more reasons than just because they're hungry. They eat because they're bored, struggling with emotions, with other people who are eating, or maybe they eat just because the clock says it's time. None of those have anything to do being hungry or a broken "Hunger, Lack-of-Hunger" feedback system or because "mechanisms seeking a happy equilibrium are being short-circuited somehow." Whatever that means.

And all his portion-control advice in the quote you give is totally worthless! It is yet another entry in the long and proud tradition of dieting advice that sounds good on paper, and does not work in reality. There is no empirical evidence whatsoever that "cutting meat portions in half" will make people permanently fix body composition problems. Show me a good study where the researchers have 1,000 people eat a certain portion of meat at their meals and another 1,000 cut that portion in half, and then track the body composition of these groups over 5 years.

So all the portion control stuff is just useless -- in fact, as the research shows, counterproductive! A few of the 10 action items, however, are just part of the Primal Blueprint pattern of changing the eating style back to the ancient primal way, changing the type of foods eaten (not the quantity). Those would be 8, 7, and 4. Starchy vegetables, legumes, and fruit are all on the "moderation" list of things that should be more or less avoided if one has an overweight body composition, until the body has fixed the problem and equilibrated on a more reasonable and healthy composition.

All this just seems to be good sense. If you back up and applies the same rules of sense and logic to the issue of obesity as you apply to all the other aspects of life you've successfully mastered, I think it will become pretty clear that these principles are true. To start at the very basic level, just consider two facts:

Humans almost certainly didn't count calories during any of our existence up until extremely recently.
Humans almost certainly didn't have a problem with being chronically obese during any of our existence up until extremely recently.

Just ponder that. Then ask yourself: Is it likely that insufficient counting of calories has caused the recent widespread chronic obesity?

No shit, they didn't count calories until recently. They didn't know how. And supermarkets and unlimited access to food weren't around until fairly recently in human existence, either. They also weren't sitting around in front of a computer all day. Almost all of the rise in obesity over the last 20 years can be explained because people are sitting in front of computers and snacking on food out of boredom instead of walking around and doing things. As I have said before, obesity is a function of to many calories in and not enough calories out. There is literally no way to get fat any other way. And there is no way to lose weight other than by burning off more than you consume.

There isn't a point to counting calories unless you have weight to lose. But if you do, refusing to get an estimate of your daily needs and consumption, however imperfect, just seems like fighting with one hand tied behind your back.

Even if you don't want to call it one, the Primal Blueprint is a diet (part of it is), and it does rely on caloric deficit to achieve results, even if you want to close your eyes and not actually count them. It even includes intermittent fasting. It doesn't get any more calorie restricted than not eating at all for a while. The PB tries to restrict calories while limiting a feeling of hunger through intake of fat and controlling hormones like leptin, but it does rely on caloric deficit. There are billions of people on this planet who aren't fat, and most of them aren't following the Primal Blueprint, so that's not the only way of keeping weight off.
 
Meh,crack another beer and take pride in your washtub abs.
lolz :D I know you're joking, but it is possible to have an incredibly strong core and a beer belly. Lots of boxers, cage fighters, wrestlers and traditional fighters don't look well-sculpted at all, but have srs core strength under there. :eek:
 
Thank you for the laugh.

Yeah, cake and fried foods and baked potato chips are poison, but you somehow think that if you get a "grilled" chicken sandwich and skip the mayo, it's not poison.

When was the last time you saw smoke coming from McDonald's or Wendy's? Weird. How do those "grilled" sandwiches get grilled, then? Well at least they use healthy bread!

Again, thank you for the laugh. Lord knows people have been dying from eating cake and baked potato crisps for centuries.

Uh....what?

First, people are indeed dying from cake and potato chips. Obesity is one of the leading causes of death. If you want to eat unhealthy foods, that's your prerogative, you'll just have to limit your portions or accept the resulting weight gain -- and by extension, increased risk of death.

Is a grilled chicken sandwich with no mayo from McDonald's the best thing in the world? No. But it's 350 calories and 30 grams of protein. Compared to a Big Mac meal it's world's better.
 
Next up:

"New Obamacare program to surgically transfer body fat from the obese to the fit"
 
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Uh....what?

First, people are indeed dying from cake and potato chips. Obesity is one of the leading causes of death. If you want to eat unhealthy foods, that's your prerogative, you'll just have to limit your portions or accept the resulting weight gain -- and by extension, increased risk of death.

Is a grilled chicken sandwich with no mayo from McDonald's the best thing in the world? No. But it's 350 calories and 30 grams of protein. Compared to a Big Mac meal it's world's better.

That sandwich is worse than the foods you've labeled poisons. You've justified it by making an argument equivalent to whether it'd be better to lose a couple of fingers or both testicles to a horrific machine-related accident. Neither are attractive options.

As for potato chips, no. People have been eating crisp, thin shavings of vegetables for ages, and potatoes were around long before obesity becoming a leading cause of death. Cake has been around for quite some time longer. The chemicals used to help your grilled chicken sandwich look like it contains grilled chicken, though, are a newer invention.

GRILLED CHICKEN FILLET: Ingredients: Chicken Breast Fillet with Rib Meat, Water, Seasoning (Rice Starch, Salt, Sugar, Yeast Extract, Canola Oil, Onion Powder, Maltodextrin, Chicken Skin, Paprika, Flavor, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Garlic Powder, Chicken Fat, Spices), Sodium Phosphates.

ETA: Take the above, freeze it (the added water helps), then paint some grill marks (if applicable... I know that the frozen ones at the grocery store have marks?) on it and ship it to McD's somewhere so that it can be thawed and put onto an oversweet bleached bun.

vs.

Ingredients
4 russet (baking) potatoes, peeled and sliced diagonally 1/8 inch thick
1/2 stick (1/4 cup) of butter, melted
Coarse salt to taste

I will take my chances with those awful evil potato chips.
 
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Ingredients: Enriched Flour (Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, Whole Wheat Flour, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Honey, Wheat Gluten, Contains 2% or Less of: Yeast, Soybean Oil, Maltodextrin (Dietary Fiber), Salt, Calcium Sulfate, Dough Conditioners (Wheat Flour, DATEM, Ascorbic Acid, Azodicarbonamide, Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, Mono and Diglycerides, Enzymes, Calcium Peroxide), Ammonium Sulfate, Natural Flavor (Botanical Source), Calcium Propionate (Preservative), Vitamin D3, Rolled Wheat (Topping).

Don't forget the bun.
 
When I say "potato chips" I don't mean those made with potatoes you've grown in your garden and fried with organic oil. I mean what the overwhelming majority of Americans consider potato chips -- a bag of processed garbage from the Pepsi company. Ditto cake.
 
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When I say "potato chips" I don't mean those made with potatoes you've grown in your garden and fried with organic oil. I mean what the overwhelming majority of Americans consider potato chips -- a bag of processed garbage from the Pepsi company. Ditto cake.

Why are you frying potato chips at all? I also see you've gone back to comparing garbage to garbage to try to bolster your point.

Anyhow, your posts inadvertently support two other posters' points:

1. People are woefully uneducated about nutrition if they're thinking a list of chemicals unneeded in bread for centuries is part of a better food item than some potatoes and butter and salt. When this is pointed out, those same people will say they didn't mean actual potato chips. They meant Pepsi chips. And Pepsi cake.

2. That it if we're to look at some general clue as to the obesity epidemic, we might start with the list above as a sobering reminder that while some chemicals have enhanced our lives, the ingredients list does not resemble anyone's family recipe for a wheat bun.

You mentioned calories and protein, but you left out the sodium (which in this case is largely a byproduct of the "water" and chemical processes used) and the sugars/carbs.

Can we just agree that McDonalds is a nutritional void instead of attempting to argue that one should run out and get a sandwich instead of making some crisps or cake? Not to mention that it's apples and oranges, since that sandwich is basically engineered to make you want another, and another, and another, or at very least more food, very shortly? But yeah it's only about calories, sure.
 
Can you stop nitpicking?

There are about 50 people in the entire country that make their own potato chips (and that's being generous). If someone said, "I had some potato chips with sandwich at lunch" there's a 99.9% chance that they're referring to a bag of Fritolays, or Better Made, or some other chip made in a factory somewhere. Actual potato chips = Pepsi chips because thats what normal people mean when they say "potato chips."

I'll agree with you that everything sold at McDonald's is poison, but I would still take one of their chicken sandwiches over a cake, even if it's homemade from scratch (again, how many people do this? Virtually no one. It's either from the Wal-Mart bakery or its made from some boxed mix). Large quantities of sugar, even if it's high quality, is terrible.
 
It is absurd to describe a mild, temporary calorie deficit as requiring a "heroic expenditure of raw will and determination." It is temporary - once you've lost the weight, you can increase caloric consumption to your total daily energy expenditure level.
Any expenditure of will is too much. Yes, it will be relatively easy the first time, just as it was for Oprah: stick to 1,200 calories a day and several weeks later, voila!, mission accomplished. Then you will gain the weight back. All the research shows you will gain the weight back. You will gain the weight back. The second time, it will be harder. Then you will gain the weight back. The third time, it will be even harder. Then you will gain the weight back.

You have no research whatsoever on your side, of which I am aware. The fact that you have assiduously ignored and avoided saying anything responding to my requests for actual research verifying your theories tells me you are not aware of any either. So why do you believe your theory, if you have no scientific evidence to support it? Because it sounds plausible to you. Well it sounds plausible to me, too. It just happens to not be true. Follow the science, Enoch.

People eat for more reasons than just because they're hungry. They eat because they're bored, struggling with emotions, with other people who are eating, or maybe they eat just because the clock says it's time. None of those have anything to do being hungry or a broken "Hunger, Lack-of-Hunger" feedback system or because "mechanisms seeking a happy equilibrium are being short-circuited somehow." Whatever that means.
Was I unclear about what that means? Let me try again:

  • Life forms seek to survive and be healthy.
  • Life forms that have stuck around and are still with us are successful at this quest.
  • Life builds in a variety of biological regulating mechanisms to keep things in the "sweet spot" for that given life form.
  • These mechanisms are very robust and flexible. If a life form is too fragile and prone to failure, then, surprise: it will fail!
Here are some examples of things that should not break biological mechanisms:

  • Boredom
  • Emotions
  • Struggles
  • Presence of other people
  • Awareness of time
Boredom has, sadly, been with mankind since time immemorial. Most experts agree that emotions are not, it turns out, an innovation invented in the 20th century. Struggles, last I checked, are likewise not new to the scene. Adam had things all to himself, but ever since Eve absolute solitude has not been a viable long-term option -- other people were always present, and they sometimes would be eating. Humans are spacial-temporal beings, and as such have been aware of time all along.

Since all these things are constants, not variables, it is impossible that they could be the cause of any new phenomenon.

they didn't count calories until recently. They didn't know how.
Thank you for this revelation.

And supermarkets and unlimited access to food weren't around until fairly recently in human existence, either.
Actually, for many people groups throughout the world, unlimited access to food was their reality and their experience. Climate is kind to the lower latitudes. Hawaii. Polynesia. India. Yet these peoples did not have widespread obesity problems. Why?

My theory provides an answer. Yours provides none.

They also weren't sitting around in front of a computer all day. Almost all of the rise in obesity over the last 20 years can be explained because people are sitting in front of computers and snacking on food out of boredom instead of walking around and doing things.
This is a very nice theory. According to it, construction workers should be the healthiest and thinnest people around, since they are active all day.

That turns out to not be the case.

Non-snackers should also be thinner than snackers.

That turns out to not be the case.

There just is no science supporting anything you say, as good as it all sounds.

As I have said before, obesity is a function of to many calories in and not enough calories out. There is literally no way to get fat any other way. And there is no way to lose weight other than by burning off more than you consume.
Again, this is a statement about physics more than a useful statement about biology.

There isn't a point to counting calories unless you have weight to lose. But if you do, refusing to get an estimate of your daily needs and consumption, however imperfect, just seems like fighting with one hand tied behind your back.
Given the actual results of actual research into weight-loss, a more apt analogy might be that it is fighting without a bug-catching net (that is, without a weapon known to not work).

Even if you don't want to call it one, the Primal Blueprint is a diet (part of it is), and it does rely on caloric deficit to achieve results, even if you want to close your eyes and not actually count them. It even includes intermittent fasting. It doesn't get any more calorie restricted than not eating at all for a while. The PB tries to restrict calories while limiting a feeling of hunger through intake of fat and controlling hormones like leptin, but it does rely on caloric deficit.
Now we are getting somewhere! Exactly, as you have pointed out 2 or 3 times, the law of conservation of energy does require that all energy go somewhere. Using discipline to try to take advantage of that physics fact fails. Horribly.

However, what works is: fixing the underlying problem! If your engine is overheating because the radiator is broken, you could drive around with the hood up to get more airflow, or hot wire in a portable 12V fan, or change out the oil to a high-temperature resistant formula so that you can run hot w/o damage, or.... you could fix the radiator! If your roof is leaking because it is partially collapsed and is concave, you could rig up a drainage system to pipe the water down through your living room and out to the back yard, or you could cover the sunken area with a big blue tarp, or.... you could fix the roof!

There are billions of people on this planet who aren't fat, and most of them aren't following the Primal Blueprint, so that's not the only way of keeping weight off.
Exactly! Since all through history and pre-history, the billions of mankind have had no obesity problem, it stands to reason that something changed to cause this very new problem. To get back to our sweet spot, we just need to undo that change. You think the change is the invention of snacking and the rise of computers. I think its a rapid and unprecedented shift in dietary makeup.
 
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