Are you a Constitutionalist or an Anarchist?

What is your idiology?

  • I am a constitutionalist.

    Votes: 120 57.1%
  • I am an anarchist.

    Votes: 71 33.8%
  • Other - Please explain your position.

    Votes: 19 9.0%

  • Total voters
    210
Wrong again, my friend.

See Hoppe's Democracy: The God That Failed.

Monarchies are strictly better than democracies, because monarchs own their government and have a vested interest in preserving it, via low taxes, a docile populace, and by giving into intense demands.

Before democracy, there was also virtually no such thing as total war. Soldiers never involved the citizens. Now, every war is total war.

Good book written in 2007 I think called The Birth of Total War which I included in a bibliographic essay that discussed the previous separation of citizen and soldier and patriotism/nationalism that was brought on by the French Revolution that erased the separation forever.
 
Maybe not communistic but more the first completely planned state, which I may incorrectly equate with communist. Attempting to replace religion with the cult of the nation, imposing price controls, Committee on Public Safety, and I can't quite remember but didn't they attempt to (or maybe it was just one of Robespierre's ramblings) make all pay/wages the same.

I admit I wouldn`t know about the wages. I know they did away with serfdom handing land over into private ownership of the peasants and dismantled the guilds.

I guess they could be called communistic if we used Rothbard`s explanation of what socialism is. Pursuit of liberal goals through conservative means.

They did for the most part pursue liberal goals but in their zeal resorted to conservative (statist) means. So they claimed to be the children of Enlightment and Classical Liberalism but acted like Attila the Hun.
 
The U.S. Constitution did not fail. The citizens of this country failed the constitution by not demanding that their leaders strictly stick to it.

And the Ron Paul movement is the citizens last hope for doing so.
 
So, the anarchists get all four of their tires shot out by media marginalization or whatever (more likely the very, very strange bedfellows that hanging yourself with the word 'anarchist' automatically gives you), and the minarchists get at least three tires shot out by the same means. The anarchists bitch; the minarchists get new tires. Then the anarchists hitch a ride with the minarchists (knowing we have soft hearts, despite 'liberal' claims to the contrary) and start shouting out the windows, 'Hey, look at whose car we're in now!!' Then people reload their guns and eye our new tires...

Yeah, gets old guys. What can we say?

To wit, this thread labeled people as "anarchists" as a pejorative. I would never use the term to describe myself, and prefer simply calling myself a free person, or a free human.

I would never jump on a bandwagon to hijack a message. I was invited to support Dr. Paul, and will do so while he fights to limit federal power. If, by miracles of miracles, he succeeds in getting the government down to a Constitutional size (by whatever subjective test he uses), and says "my job here is done, its small enough," I'll leave the forums with his name, and go to one that is affiliated with the further reduction of violence and force of government.

Until that day, I'm pretty sure we can work together, and are fighting for many of the same Rights or Liberties. We just may not agree on whether it is the Constitution that provides those rights or on any number of particular issues, but we all agree that Ron Paul's position, idealism, and vision are something to support, at least for now, in each of our self interests.
 
So the educated are more likely to reject the notion that a piece of paper can enslave an entire population?

Young people on a journey for knowledge are often times idealistic, furthermore, with extremely limited real world experience, their education is rather useless.

I get that you are trying to be pejorative (e.g. "those dumb kids will understand that they need government when they grow up"), but come on, recruiting high-school kids is supposed to be showing the 'youth enthusiasm' for Liberty.

Get your story straight, lest you alienate new arrivals much the same way the GOP at large is doing.

Anarchists are of no value to this movement because anarchists don’t vote. Any form of grassroots efforts they engage in is to convince people not to vote. That movement is completely at odds with this movement.
 
I admit I wouldn`t know about the wages. I know they did away with serfdom handing land over into private ownership of the peasants and dismantled the guilds.

I guess they could be called communistic if we used Rothbard`s explanation of what socialism is. Pursuit of liberal goals through conservative means.

They did for the most part pursue liberal goals but in their zeal resorted to conservative (statist) means. So they claimed to be the children of Enlightment and Classical Liberalism but acted like Attila the Hun.

Correct, liberals and planners hadn't separated yet, therefore the radicals in this particular setting were planners on the scale of Fourier and the moderates were in favor of constitutional monarchy.
 
The U.S. Constitution did not fail. The citizens of this country failed the constitution by not demanding that their leaders strictly stick to it.

And the Ron Paul movement is the citizens last hope for doing so.

But then isn't the Constitution at fault for putting the fallible 'citizenry' in charge? (BTW, there is no basis for this claim, the Constitution puts the onus on Congress to pass laws that are Necessary and proper to carry out the edicts of the document)

The people were hoodwinked by "their leaders" into thinking what was being done was, in fact, Constitutional. So it was the "leaders" not the people?

And if it was the people, what has given you the confidence that the general public would do any better once Ron Paul 'resets' the power to Constitutional limits?
 
But then isn't the Constitution at fault for putting the fallible 'citizenry' in charge? (BTW, there is no basis for this claim, the Constitution puts the onus on Congress to pass laws that are Necessary and proper to carry out the edicts of the document)

The people were hoodwinked by "their leaders" into thinking what was being done was, in fact, Constitutional. So it was the "leaders" not the people?

And if it was the people, what has given you the confidence that the general public would do any better once Ron Paul 'resets' the power to Constitutional limits?

How many times has this forum seen this argument?! Damn just damn.

So, if the people and their 'leaders' (literally the ones they follow, and yes humans are pack animals by and large and will follow) fall on their faces within 2-300 years with limits, what evidence is there they'll do better without limits?

Why is democracy a failure? Because it canonizes and makes sacred the mob will of the majority. Why is anarchy different again? At least the Constitution canonizes and makes sacred our individuality. Anarchy does not.
 
Young people on a journey for knowledge are often times idealistic, furthermore, with extremely limited real world experience, their education is rather useless.



Anarchists are of no value to this movement because anarchists don’t vote. Any form of grassroots efforts they engage in is to convince people not to vote. That movement is completely at odds with this movement.

You're a helluva collectivist, too!

"Anarchists" aren't a single homogeneous mass of people who all do things the same way. Some may not vote, some may encourage people to vote for people who promise to regulate government once on the "inside". If there are any anarchists here, wouldn't they pretty much de facto be supporting voting for Paul?

Further, why is voting the only, best, or preferred method for changing the system? As far as I can tell, if the current system remains in place, the majority of the people will be content enough to keep voting for people that want to preserve the status quo.

Personally, if the State is going to allow me to play some infinitesimal part in deciding which 'leader' is going to claim to represent me, I want to take part in that process. But it is the State's process, not mine. If there is one candidate that proves to me to be exceptionally trustworthy and earnest, I'll encourage others to vote for them also.

But I recognize the futility of consistently filing a vote for the less-than-one-percent category of someone who tells the truth and doesn't promise the voter that all of their dreams will come true, and sense that other, non governmental, non-political processes must be implemented to first win the hearts and minds of the democratic voters.

So do I urge people that they must vote? Of course not. Do I reject using the system as currently enabled to bring about incremental change, as you suggest? Again, no.
 
How many times has this forum seen this argument?! Damn just damn.

So, if the people and their 'leaders' (literally the ones they follow, and yes humans are pack animals by and large and will follow) fall on their faces within 2-300 years with limits, what evidence is there they'll do better without limits?

Why is democracy a failure? Because it canonizes and makes sacred the mob will of the majority. Why is anarchy different again? At least the Constitution canonizes and makes sacred our individuality. Anarchy does not.

Freedom allows the failure and success of any group of leaders and followers. Without forceful binding by a constitution, these groups are free to set their own "limits" to see what works at preserving a stable administrative institution. Constitutionalism forces all of us to fall on our faces at the same time, by canonizing and making sacred our group identity as National citizens, and sets in stone a single set of "limits" that OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T WORK THE FIRST TIME!

You and I regularly fall on the same side of complicated debates, acptulsa, I'm surprised to see this much vitriol and fervor from you in favor of groupthink and usurpation of freedoms of association.
 
At least the Constitution canonizes and makes sacred our individuality. Anarchy does not.

So you make sacred my individuality my denying me my individuality by forcing me to subscribe to your system through taxation as a gun is pointed at my head? Really? :rolleyes:
 
Anarchists are of no value to this movement because anarchists don’t vote. Any form of grassroots efforts they engage in is to convince people not to vote.

Not only do I vote, but being an Australian resident, I've jumped through more hoops than you've had to just so I can get an absentee ballot.

I do all I can from Australia to help Ron Paul.
 
It's kinda comical how heated this debate is getting.

Yes, the people who want to be left alone and live their lives the way they see fit and the people who want to control, monitor, tax and enslave the people that don't agree with them. ;)
 
Yes, the people who want to be left alone and live their lives the way they see fit and the people who want to control, monitor, tax and enslave the people that don't agree with them. ;)
One can dream I guess of less or no government.
Reality will smack you in the back of the head to wake you up.
 
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