Are we paying to bring all these people from south of the border ?

[Carlybee]

Why do you think I posted it?

There were a few points made that illustrate my position (more or less) that could have been posted absent the entirety... the entire context was warranted. I could go through and illustrate the points on which Ron Paul is correct (I think this should be especially noted: "This solution is far from perfect, but solutions to government-induced problems are never easy. Since our economic problems have been the major contributing factor, all other solutions come up short. Maximum freedom for everyone is the best way to go in solving any of our problems.") and I could illustrate that he is wrong on a few things (notably border agents.... if he wishes to fund them, that would be his prerogative. Lysander Spooner effectively destroyed any case to be had with regards to the social contract theory in No Treason).

I figured you'd enjoy the read. I do think that my arguments in favor of that which I've argued (that I should not be robbed to pay for both the immigrant's journey and/or lifestyle as well as interdiction efforts) have been sound.

Look I don't particularly want to pay for any additional interdiction efforts. Ideally this would be something a state militia (in our case a state national guard reserve) (I dont trust the border patrol or local law enforcement) and as RP said working with property owners, but unfortunately we have a governor who contradicts himself at every turn saying on one hand he wants no federal help and on the other hand saying he does. However, I do know that if this continues at this pace the states affected are going to be in big trouble economically...actually the state itself won't be...they'll just pass it on to the homeowners and taxpayers.

 

[Zippyjuan]

the entire situation has been orchestrated by the Obama administration in an effort to increase their voter base ahead of the upcoming national elections this year and in 2016.

IF the amnesty law is passed (and still a big if), those eligible could APPLY for citizenship after another ten years. Then the process takes several more years. (and recent border crosser are not eligible for the program) which would only apply to those who have already been here and going to school and working for at least ten years). Only after being granted citizenship (assuming they make it though all that process) can they then register to vote. It would be impossible for them to vote in 2016- maybe in fifteen to twenty years.

 

[Zippyjuan]

Look I don't particularly want to pay for any additional interdiction efforts. Ideally this would be something a state militia (in our case a state national guard reserve) (I dont trust the border patrol or local law enforcement) and as RP said working with property owners, but unfortunately we have a governor who contradicts himself at every turn saying on one hand he wants no federal help and on the other hand saying he does. However, I do know that if this continues at this pace the states affected are going to be in big trouble economically...actually the state itself won't be...they'll just pass it on to the homeowners and taxpayers.

A state militia or National Guard Reserve is still paid for by your taxes.

(I dont trust the border patrol or local law enforcement)

National Guard or state militia would still be a local or national government enforcement force.

Who would be responsible for "due process"- insuring that those suspected of being here illegally are proven to be so (and those "suspected" or "accused" of being here illegally separated out)? This is one reason that it takes time to expel those coming now- deciding who deserves to be deported (thousands have been getting deported but it is getting harder to keep up on the process).

 

[Carlybee]

A state militia or National Guard Reserve is still paid for by your taxes.



National Guard or state militia would still be a local or national government enforcement force.

Who would be responsible for "due process"- insuring that those suspected of being here illegally are proven to be so (and those "suspected" or "accused" of being here illegally separated out)? This is one reason that it takes time to expel those coming now- deciding who deserves to be deported (thousands have been getting deported but it is getting harder to keep up on the process).

They are paid for by my taxes anyway..regardless what their assignment is. And my concern is keeping them out. Not much good in doing much about the ones who are already here except to cut off entitlements.

 

[Zippyjuan]

They are paid for by my taxes anyway..regardless what their assignment is. And my concern is keeping them out. Not much good in doing much about the ones who are already here except to cut off entitlements.

Talk to your state. They are not eligible for Federal entitlements like food stamps (SNAP), Social Security, Medicare/ Medicaid, Obamacare.

 

[Carlybee]

Talk to your state. They are not eligible for Federal entitlements like food stamps (SNAP), Social Security, Medicare/ Medicaid, Obamacare.

No they are not eligible but they get them. Social services is inept and rarely verify. Ron Paul has spoken about this. Recently in Nevada they found 4000 had been added to Obamacare with subsidies. Seriously Juan have you looked at anything I have posted? Do you think my state cares? Do you think they aren't aware of the fraud? They don't even do anything about the legal citizen fraud. Oh and if they go undetected long enough they can work a few years and draw social security. The agencies in charge have probably been told to look the other way, just like ICE at the border recently.

 

[P3ter_Griffin]

They are paid for by my taxes anyway..regardless what their assignment is. And my concern is keeping them out. Not much good in doing much about the ones who are already here except to cut off entitlements.

Finally some honesty from you. Why don't you, instead of demagoguing that your opposition wants welfare for immigrants, argue your beliefs. Protectionism has been pretty well destroyed around here, but at least your arguments wouldn't be based off strawmen.

 

[LibForestPaul]

I don't give a shit what the law says, natural rights >>>>>> social contract theory.

And when did I say we live in a free market? We obviously don't with the current levels of government intervention, so I'm arguing for a move in that direction. Giving the government power over immigration does not accomplish that and only sets us back further. As has been pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. You cannot expand freedom by taking it away at the same time.

When you stop paying you income tax, then I will listen to your bull. Let me know how that natural rights > social contract theory works out for you. I'll be your pen pale.

 

[Carlybee]

Finally some honesty from you. Why don't you, instead of demagoguing that your opposition wants welfare for immigrants, argue your beliefs. Protectionism has been pretty well destroyed around here, but at least your arguments wouldn't be based off strawmen.

My concern is keeping them out until there is some sort of reform, ie, getting rid of entitlements. And I am referring to the current influx of thousands of them coming over. I am not against immigration itself. Most people who immigrate legally are not here because of the freebies. They come here because they are interested in having a stake in the country. Call it what you want. I am not calling for rounding up the ones already here. I do think this current exodus...mostly out of Central America needs to be stopped before it gets any worse. I do feel badly for people down there who are afraid for their lives, but instead of putting pressure on those countries to take care of their own citizens, we send them money.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

When you stop paying you income tax, then I will listen to your bull. Let me know how that natural rights > social contract theory works out for you. I'll be your pen pale.

Where did I say anything about not paying my income tax? Just because I don't want to go to jail doesn't mean that the law is any less bullshit.

But let me know how continuing to grant the government an immoral power works out for you, since, you know, the government never abuses abuses its authority. Yup, that piece of paper keeps everyone in check and has never allowed the government to increase its powers...

 

[AuH20]

A Japanese American Professor Who Understands What Is At Work.

http://www.infowars.com/uc-professor-immigration-influx-is-about-re-education-of-society/

Hamamoto warns that the influx of illegal immigrants into the U.S. and by extension into the college education system is part of a deliberate plot, “to exclude the American middle class from a UC education and create a new demographic of largely immigrant or foreign national undergraduate population that can be re-educated from the ground up and controlled much more readily.”

Hamamoto’s warning is noteworthy given his position at one of the most liberal institutions in the United States. The professor acknowledged that his vocal stance against illegal immigration has already prompted a backlash, but that he had no reservations in going public.

“I am fairly certain that this is also going on at UT and other “public” institutions of higher learning, so Infowars subscribers will “get it,” wrote Hamamoto. “Everyone else will be really pissed off at me….I am already being harassed by the administration and informed on by trained student-rats, so truly this is not a risk for me.”

It's about replacing unpredictable Americans with subservient, dependent foreigners who are just happy to survive, essentially ushering in the perfect slave class to serve the elites and their interests. Think about it. A group of slaves that refuse firearm ownership and openly embrace the state? Does it not get any better than that? If I was an elite I could sleep easy knowing how easily I could buy off and control Latinos.

 

[LibForestPaul]

A Japanese American Professor Who Understands What Is At Work.

http://www.infowars.com/uc-professor-immigration-influx-is-about-re-education-of-society/


It's about replacing unpredictable Americans with subservient, dependent foreigners who are just happy to survive, essentially ushering in the perfect slave class to serve the elites and their interests. Think about it. A group of slaves that refuse firearm ownership and openly embrace the state? Does it not get any better than that? If I was an elite I could sleep easy knowing how easily I could buy off and control Latinos.

What does one do with a government that not only no longer serves its people it has been entrusted to represent, but actively attempts to undermine their life, their liberties, and their pursuit of happiness?

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

A Japanese American Professor Who Understands What Is At Work.

http://www.infowars.com/uc-professor-immigration-influx-is-about-re-education-of-society/


It's about replacing unpredictable Americans with subservient, dependent foreigners who are just happy to survive, essentially ushering in the perfect slave class to serve the elites and their interests. Think about it. A group of slaves that refuse firearm ownership and openly embrace the state? Does it not get any better than that? If I was an elite I could sleep easy knowing how easily I could buy off and control Latinos.

Yes, a group of hard working men and women that are taking the jobs that American citizens won't fulfill also happen to be a part of some covert plot to install Marxism. And when you mention embracing the state, do you not realize that what you are advocating for gives more power to the state in regards to economic and civil liberties?

This is how ridiculous you sound.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

What does one do with a government that not only no longer serves its people it has been entrusted to represent, but actively attempts to undermine their life, their liberties, and their pursuit of happiness?

I don't know, maybe end policies that restrict the movement of human beings?

 

[LibertyEagle]

I don't know, maybe end policies that restrict the movement of human beings?

Not everyone in the world wants to live under the same set of principles. So, those who do, carve out a piece of the world for themselves. Others can do the same.

Just because someone has legs to walk into that area, does not mean they agree to those principles.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Not everyone in the world wants to live under the same set of principles.

So let's use coercion to force everyone else to abide by the policies you prefer?

 

[TheCount]

Not everyone in the world wants to live under the same set of principles.

If movement was free, why would a person move to an area with principles different from their own?

 

[LibertyEagle]

If movement was free, why would a person move to an area with principles different from their own?

Handouts. Where ya been?

 

[LibertyEagle]

So let's use coercion to force everyone else to abide by the policies you prefer?

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I don't think you are, either. This country was founded on certain principles. It is those same principles that Ron Paul has been fighting for all his life. The fact that an illegal alien doesn't like those principles... I fail to see why I should give a damn.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I don't think you are, either. This country was founded on certain principles. It is those same principles that Ron Paul has been fighting for all his life. The fact that an illegal alien doesn't like those principles... I fail to see why I should give a damn.

You mean principles like freedom? Pretty sure open immigration, which is what the U.S. was founded on, falls under that principle. Telling someone that they can't cross an imaginary line and interact with another consenting party on THEIR private property is the complete opposite of that.