Are we paying to bring all these people from south of the border ?

[Carlybee]

Why are we helping illegal immigrants when 22 veteran commit suicide everyday, Veterans dying wait-listed(intentionally), more people in poverty than ever before, more working age Americans out of work than ever before(92 Million)... by god, we don't even help our own homeless which are now coming from all walks of life/economic levels?

Yet those that break the laws, are assisted and cared for as priority one and American taxpayers have to pickup the bills?

Because we have allowed the federal government to decide that we are to be subjected to forced integration in pursuit of the one world order agenda.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

The difference is that those criminals are under our jurisdiction. Illegal alien criminals if caught get deported and come right back over the border. If you are a libertarian then you would have gotten something from the Ron Paul interview that was posted. Are you calling him a Marxist? Because I have sad on more than one occasion I share his stance on this issue and he is right. Until entitlements to illegals are stopped there should be no open borders. Now you are either very young, or very naive if you think this country is anywhere close to being able to operate under a free market system. Yes we must work toward that but meanwhile there are circumstances that must be addressed with the resources we have and while far from ideal, it is what it is for now.

If they're under our jurisdiction, why are you okay with them having the freedom to move wherever they choose? A majority of violent crimes in the ghettos either go unsolved, police force an illegitimate confession out of someone, or an innocent person is wrongfully identified. I would hardly call it a contained situation.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Okay I'm done trying to discuss this with you. I'll defer to Ron Paul and Thomas Woods on this topic, you can defer to the Democrats, La Raza and the pro-amnesty Repukelicans. After all it is such a free country and all.

I have a few of their books, if you'd like more insight on the matter.

What I'd particularly encourage you to read into would be the subject of legal positivism, its relation to collectivist thought and propaganda and why your previous post might be funny on its face, if it weren't so unfunny (after all, they assassinate American citizens, destroy evidence of their wrongdoing and encourage their agents to lie to the courts). In fact, they laugh at Congress openly in between five minute redirects, rehearsed propaganda, and outright lies. We are a nation of laws.

We are a nation of laws when it is your pet issues being funded (to hell with my property). I will try to limit the amount of times I mock you with that nonsense as you complain about this or that. Simply a nation of laws. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Carlybee]

I have a few of their books, if you'd like more insight on the matter.

What I'd particularly encourage you to read into would be the subject of legal positivism, its relation to collectivist thought and propaganda and why your previous post might be funny on its face, if it weren't so unfunny (after all, they assassinate American citizens, destroy evidence of their wrongdoing and encourage their agents to lie to the courts). In fact, they laugh at Congress openly in between five minute redirects, rehearsed propaganda, and outright lies. We are a nation of laws.

We are a nation of laws when it is your pet issues being funded (to hell with my property). I will try to limit the amount of times I mock you with that nonsense as you complain about this or that. Simply a nation of laws. Nothing more, nothing less.

The Constitution is a set of laws, no?

 

[Carlybee]

With regard to the OT

Immigration End Game Revealed: New Law Would Give Illegal Immigrants The Right To Vote, Collect Government Benefits
Mac Slavo
June 17th, 2014


In recent weeks tens of thousands of illegal immigrants have flooded the southern border of the United States. So much so that border patrol agents are overwhelmed to the point where security along the Rio Grande river has become virtually non-existent. Instead of making arrests, detaining and deporting those who cross into America illegally, many immigration agents are reportedly mixing baby food and changing diapers for children left displaced by parents who’ve abandoned them in the hopes their kids would find greener pastures in the U.S.

The inaction on the part of the Federal government has left many bewildered. Some insiders at Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) have even gone so far as to suggest that the entire situation has been orchestrated by the Obama administration in an effort to increase their voter base ahead of the upcoming national elections this year and in 2016. That allegation may have seemed ridiculous to supporters of amnesty legislation and immigration reform, who argue that allowing immigrants into America is a humanitarian issue.

But a new legislative proposal from Democratic Senator Guestavo Rivera of New York may have just proven that opponents of lax border policies have a legitimate concern as it relates to diluting the Conservative and Libertarian voter block, as well as the burden of more government spending to accommodate the influx of people requiring assistance.

If passed, the new law would give illegal immigrants the right to not only vote in local and state elections, but they’d also enjoy many of the taxpayer funded benefits available to American citizens.

In terms of the broad benefits available to non-citizens, this bill is the first of its kind in America.

The main objective of the New York Is Home Act, according to Rivera, is to integrate illegal immigrants, who are estranged from participation in civic, economic and political life.

The legislation not only gives illegal immigrants the right to vote, but establishes a kind of second-tiered citizenship on a state level, in which illegal immigrants can apply for tuition assistance, health insurance and driver’s and professional licenses, among other benefits.

“It’s mind-boggling,” says Michael Olivas, a professor at the University of Houston Law Center who specializes in immigration law, according to Businessweek. “I don’t believe there’s ever been a serious attempt to codify so many benefits and opportunities

.

While Homeland Security and domestic intelligence agencies monitor the activities of American citizens and militarize local police forces under the pretext of safety, we now have a pretty good idea as to why our southern border has been left completely unprotected.

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-ne...-to-vote-collect-government-benefits_06172014

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Why are we helping illegal immigrants when 22 veteran commit suicide everyday, Veterans dying wait-listed(intentionally), more people in poverty than ever before, more working age Americans out of work than ever before(92 Million)... by god, we don't even help our own homeless which are now coming from all walks of life/economic levels?

Yet those that break the laws, are assisted and cared for as priority one and American taxpayers have to pickup the bills?

Why are 22 veterans committing suicide daily?

I feel bad for the homeless. I give what I can.

If they really wanted to help the homeless, which they don't, (nor do they want to help the peasants of South America), they'd start eliminating any number of the ~100,000 regulations. But they won't. So we must argue for more.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

The Constitution is a set of laws, no?

No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labour, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due.

That is was. Some laws being less lawful than others, of course.

 

[Carlybee]

That is was. Some laws being less lawful than others, of course.

So do you think we should toss the Constitution? Have absolutely no laws and total chaos? That would actually be fine by me because I have always said, we either enforce the laws we have or we go all out anarchy. Kind of tosses the NAP in the garbage though. I would like to wait until I can get some weaponry and ammunition however because I won't go gentle into that good night.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

David Friedman:

Living on welfare might look like a good deal for someone whose only experience is trying to survive in an impoverished third world country, but less so after a decade or so living and working in a first world country at first world wages.

Jeffrey Tucker:

Immigration has brought not only economic growth but a much-needed cultural shift to [Alabama]. We now have ever more museums, schools, houses of worship of many varieties, and our theaters, movie houses, and orchestras are actually enjoying support. Alabama now has highly skilled hands that can do a variety of tasks that were impossible to get done before, from complex engineering to intricate tile work in public spaces.

Of course the agriculture issue is gigantic: nearly all the workers were undocumented and now they are gone. Then there’s the food issue: without immigration, Alabama would be mostly burgers and chicken fingers. All of these industries, to one extent or another, rely on workers with sketchy documentation.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather craft my own argument rather than name drop prominent libertarians and quote their positions.

 

[Carlybee]

David Friedman:

Living on welfare might look like a good deal for someone whose only experience is trying to survive in an impoverished third world country, but less so after a decade or so living and working in a first world country at first world wages.

Jeffrey Tucker:

Immigration has brought not only economic growth but a much-needed cultural shift to [Alabama]. We now have ever more museums, schools, houses of worship of many varieties, and our theaters, movie houses, and orchestras are actually enjoying support. Alabama now has highly skilled hands that can do a variety of tasks that were impossible to get done before, from complex engineering to intricate tile work in public spaces.

Of course the agriculture issue is gigantic: nearly all the workers were undocumented and now they are gone. Then there’s the food issue: without immigration, Alabama would be mostly burgers and chicken fingers. All of these industries, to one extent or another, rely on workers with sketchy documentation.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather craft my own argument rather than name drop prominent libertarians and quote their positions.

Oh you mean like you just did? I don't have a problem at all name dropping Ron Paul on the Ron Paul Forum. For the record I disagree with Tucker. A lot of big ag uses machinery now. I dont buy big ag food anyway, I buy from local organic growers who don't employ illegals but local high school kids. Of course the whole of the nation unfortunately depends on Walmart for most of their food supplies. Wonder what America did before they had big ag? Hmmm.

Take away the welfare state. Citizens would learn to work at whatever job they could and illegals would have no incentive to come here.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

So do you think we should toss the Constitution? Have absolutely no laws and total chaos?

Anarchy does not equal chaos but rather:

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Oh you mean like you just did? I don't have a problem at all name dropping Ron Paul on the Ron Paul Forum.

I did it to show that I can play that game too.

 

[Carlybee]

I did it to show that I can play that game too.

So would you like a gold star to stick on your binder? I am not playing a game, I am trying to quote some people whom I would think would be well regarded around here in order to support my viewpoint.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

So do you think we should toss the Constitution? Have absolutely no laws and total chaos? That would actually be fine by me because I have always said, we either enforce the laws we have or we go all out anarchy. Kind of tosses the NAP in the garbage though. I would like to wait until I can get some weaponry and ammunition however because I won't go gentle into that good night.

They've already tossed the Constitution. Today it is only given the barest of lip service while simultaneously behind the scenes they are acting as only sanctioned thugs could. I could offer example after example. I have written countless pages on the matter. I have wasted hours watching their hearings, documenting their crimes.

Now I have no doubts your motivations are in the right place and I also have no doubt that them following the Constitution would be leaps and bounds better than most all of recorded history but quite quickly the Constitution took the back burner to Man's corruption and ambitions for power. It was predictable. To add onto the trouble naturally arising from Man's inherent flaws, there are inherent flaws of a given collective. People feed off of each other's emotions, a policy of group think is realized, and people's natural fears of what others think of them if being anything less than what they themselves perceive normalcy to be, encourages a society to become complacent. Techniques of propaganda were studied and mastered. Socialist ideals were fast becoming the trend. In short, the people themselves were not diligent in their efforts to retain a system which promised them freedom. Bastiat predicted as much in what, 1848? A system of plunder promoted the negligence of all's diligence for freedom.

The issue ought not be that well people rob, so we must install the worst group of robbers into a position of prominence. It isn't that well people kill, so murderers must protect us. The numbers that do so are always the minority. That they exist is unfortunate but to think that because they exist, a class of related crooks must be installed to rule over us is necessary is misguided.

In any case, it is what it is. Whether it's the IRS ("whoops, where'd the emails go"), the US Marshals (encouraging police departments to lie about their warrantless acquisition of evidence), the NSA (James Clapper lying under oath), the CIA (Benghazi, Stinger missile systems laundered to insurgents in the Middle East [not to mention their ties to drug kingpins), the DEA (their protection of class one traffickers), the FBI (their murdering of witnesses, protection of the mob), the ATF (and their gun walking operation)... I mean, this is just absurd.

Presidents from over a hundred years ago were speaking of being able to act without Congressional consent.

 

[Carlybee]

They've already tossed the Constitution. Today it is only given the barest of lip service while simultaneously behind the scenes they are acting as only sanctioned thugs could. I could offer example after example. I have written countless pages on the matter. I have wasted hours watching their hearings, documenting their crimes.

Now I have no doubts your motivations are in the right place and I also have no doubt that them following the Constitution would be leaps and bounds better than most all of recorded history but quite quickly the Constitution took the back burner to Man's corruption and ambitions for power. It was predictable. To add onto the trouble naturally arising from Man's inherent flaws, there are inherent flaws of a given collective. People feed off of each other's emotions, a policy of group think is realized, and people's natural fears of what others think of them if being anything less than what they themselves perceive normalcy to be, encourages a society to become complacent. Techniques of propaganda were studied and mastered. Socialist ideals were fast becoming the trend. In short, the people themselves were not diligent in their efforts to retain a system which promised them freedom. Bastiat predicted as much in what, 1848? A system of plunder promoted the negligence of all's diligence for freedom.

The issue ought not be that well people rob, so we must install the worst group of robbers into a position of prominence. It isn't that well people kill, so murderers must protect us. The numbers that do so are always the minority. That they exist is unfortunate but to think that because they exist, a class of related crooks must be installed to rule over us is necessary is misguided.

In any case, it is what it is. Whether it's the IRS ("whoops, where'd the emails go"), the US Marshals (encouraging police departments to lie about their warrantless acquisition of evidence), the NSA (James Clapper lying under oath), the CIA (Benghazi, Stinger missile systems laundered to insurgents in the Middle East [not to mention their ties to drug kingpins), the DEA (their protection of class one traffickers), the FBI (their murdering of witnesses, protection of the mob), the ATF (and their gun walking operation)... I mean, this is just absurd.

Presidents from over a hundred years ago were speaking of being able to act without Congressional consent.

I don't disagree with that but we do still have at least some legal precedent afforded us by the Constitution. Not much, but right now it's all we have.

 

[Carlybee]

//

 

[kcchiefs6465]

[...] I am trying to quote some people whom I would think would be well regarded around here in order to support my viewpoint.

Immigration​

There seem to be two extreme positions on immigration: completely closed borders and totally open borders. The Constitution, common sense, and the philosophy of freedom offer a principled alternative to these two rash options.

It’s best to try to understand why immigration is such a hot-button issue for most Americans. There are many reasons why the politics of immigration are so emotionally charged. The most telling reason is related to economic concerns and violence; immigrants, it is said, take jobs from American working people; federal mandates require states to provide free medical and educational benefits to illegals; a weak economy exaggerates the economic consequences of legal and illegal immigration.

The political motivations are important contributing factors as well and are the concerns of many Americans. It is assumed that all immigrants, including illegals, will benefit liberals and Democrats at the voting booth. Evidence exists that some illegals do vote and they don’t vote for Republicans. Illegals are counted in the census, creating a situation where they can statistically add up to several congressional districts. Texas, for instance, gained four new seats after the 2010 census was completed and this was, to a large degree, a reflection of our immigration policies.

Due to the immensity of this emotionally charged problem, a simple answer under current conditions will not be easily found. In the ideal libertarian world, borders would be blurred and open. It would be something similar to what the Constitution did with the borders between the various states. Civilization has not yet come even close to being capable of such a policy, though it engages some in a theoretical discussion. The libertarians who argue for completely open borders for the free flow of goods and people fail to realize that a truly libertarian society would not necessarily be that open. The land and property would be privately owned and controlled by the owners, who would have the right to prevent newcomers from entering without their permission. There would be no government havens or welfare benefits and new immigrants would come only after a sponsor’s permission.

Under today’s circumstances, with a government-precipitated recession (a depression for those who earn under $30,000 a year) and promises of welfare, obviously some rules are required.

It’s important to note that the greatest resentment comes from government-mandated free services and a government-created unemployment crisis. Fix these two problems and finding a scapegoat for our economic crisis wouldn't be necessary.

A free and prosperous economy always looks for labor; immigrant workers would be needed and welcomed. This need could be managed by a generous guest worker program, not by illegal immigrants receiving benefits for the family and securing an easy route to permanent citizenship and thus becoming pawns of partisan political
interests.

Since Washington will not soon come to its senses and allow for the needed economic corrections to restore a healthy free market economy, we are forced to deal with current conditions, which are rapidly deteriorating.

Even today with all our government excesses we have millions of people and businesses protected by private security. Dow Chemical has fences and private security guards, as do most of the chemical plants located a few miles from where I live. There are no trespassers and if a problem occurs, the police or sheriff is called.

But if a rancher on our border wants to stop trespassers on his land, he is forbidden to do so. The Feds don’t even allow the state law enforcement officers to interfere! This, they argue, could lead to violence if an appropriate use of force is not used. Shooting suspected illegal aliens on sight would be a horrendous error and serious people are concerned about it happening.

At the federal government–maintained borders, where a war is going on, the violence is already out of control and growing. The conditions we have created with illegal trafficking in immigrants is serious, but the recent escalation has involved the drug cartels and border guards, the military, and the police, a consequence of the ridiculous notion that drug prohibition is a sensible social policy.

Everyone by now should know that our current war on drugs makes no more sense than alcohol prohibition did in the 1920s. One only needs to study the drug trade and corruption ongoing in Afghanistan to see the danger of the war on drugs. The huge profits that can be made are a significant incentive for corruption across the board.

Even with a healthy economy and stricter border controls, the issue of what to do with twelve-million-plus illegals already here would persist. One side says use the U.S. Army, round them up, and ship them home. The other side says give them amnesty, make them full-fledged citizens, and reward the lawbreakers, thus insulting and unfairly penalizing those who have patiently waited and obeyed our immigration laws.

The first choice—sending twelve to fifteen million illegals home—isn't going to happen and should not happen. Neither the determination or the ability to accomplish it exists. Besides, if each case is looked at separately, we would find ourselves splitting up families and deporting some who have lived here for decades, if not their entire life, and who never lived for any length of time in Mexico. This would hardly be a Good Samaritan approach to the problem. It would be incompatible with human rights.

The toughest part of showing any compassion or tolerance to the illegal immigrants who are very much Americanized is the tremendous encouragement it gives for more immigrants to come illegally and avoid the wait and bureaucracy. Considering what they face at home, they see the risk of sneaking in as being minor compared to the risk of dying in poverty in Central America.

Some of the resentment by Americans is that many immigrants are “Americanized” rather quickly.

Most immigrants do not come for handouts; rather, they come for survival reasons and have a work ethic superior to many of our own citizens who have grown dependent on welfare and unemployment benefits. This anger may reflect embarrassment as much as anything.

Many claim that illegal immigrants take American jobs. This is true, but most of the jobs they “take” are the ones unemployed Americans refuse at the wage offered. Rarely is this even minimum wage; it’s usually higher. It’s hard to hide the fact that resentment toward a Hispanic immigrant is more common than that toward a European illegal immigrant.

Immigration laws, out of practicality, can never be equally enforced on those who have been assimilated for five to ten or even twenty years as compared to those caught currently coming through our border states in the Southwest. On the immigration issue I have found no one with the wisdom of Solomon. My humble suggestions on what to do follow.

Restore our economy to a healthy free market with sound money and eliminate deficit-financed government. A vibrant economy will minimize the problems and produce a high demand for both domestic and immigrant labor.

Abolish the welfare state. The incentive to always take a job—at whatever wage available—must prevail. A healthy economy, absent Federal Reserve–induced recession or depression and inflation, will keep real wages high.

With free markets and private property, a need for immigrant labor becomes obvious. Make it legal and easy with a generous visitor work program.

Enforce the laws now on the books with more border guards; permit states to enforce the law; allow landowners to provide private property security assistance, just as we do every day throughout the United States, and to work with Federal Border Control authorities. Private landowners have a right to post No Trespassing signs on their property to achieve this.

Do not grant automatic citizenship to children of illegal immigrants born in the United States, deliberately or accidentally.

Stop all federal mandates on the states to provide free education and medical care for illegal immigrants. The absurdity that South Texas schools are overburdened with Mexican children going back and forth over the border each day to our public school systems is resented by cash-strapped school districts.

Bilingualism should always be voluntary and not compelled by law.

Don’t punish third parties for not being keen to act as law enforcement agents in regard to illegal immigration. Blaming American employers and fining them for hiring an individual, directly or indirectly, possibly with a counterfeit identification, strikes me as a compulsory servitude not permitted under the Constitution. Determining who is legal or not is a police and court function, not a responsibility of private business.

Same goes for the Catholic Church. When those who suffer the chaos of immigration and drug wars on the border are helped by the Church, the Church should never be seen as an accomplice to a crime. Let the Church show the compassion that’s required to pick up the pieces of a government-created mess.

End the drug war. The deteriorating economic conditions and the mess with immigration invite the violence of the drug lords and corrupt officials on both sides. It’s time to break up the coalition of the religious drug warriors and the drug dealers who fight any effort to decriminalize drugs. It’s time to treat all drugs the way we treat alcohol and cigarettes, substances that kill millions more than hard drugs do. The drug war is deadly and allows drug lords to make a lot more money than legalized drugs ever would. The drug war and the illegal immigration across our southern borders cannot be separated.

Immigrants who can’t be sent back due to the magnitude of the problem should not be given citizenship—no amnesty should be granted. Maybe a “green card” with an asterisk could be issued. This in-between status, keeping illegal immigrants in limbo, will be condemned by the welfare left as being too harsh and condemned by the confused right as being too generous. It will be said that it will create a class of second-class citizens. Yet it could be argued that it may well allow some immigrants who come here illegally a beneficial status without automatic citizenship or tax-supported benefits—a much better option than deportation.

Those immigrants, legal or illegal, who incite violence or commit crimes of violence should be prosecuted under the law and lose their right to stay in this country.

The police should not be prohibited from determining an individual’s citizenship if the person is caught participating in a crime. This is far different from stopping anyone anytime and demanding the individual present documentation of a legal status. That invokes the principle of “reasonable cause,” not reasonable suspicion.

This solution is far from perfect, but solutions to government-induced problems are never easy. Since our economic problems have been the major contributing factor, all other solutions come up short. Maximum freedom for everyone is the best way to go in solving any of our problems.

Another concern I have with the immigration issue is that the strong border protection proponents are as interested in regulating our right to freely exit the country as they are in preventing illegal entry. No longer can we travel even to Canada or Mexico without a U.S. passport. Our government keeps tabs on our every move, which involves a lot more than looking for drug dealers, illegal immigrants, or stopping a potential terrorist.

Financial controls have been growing since the 1970s, and as the financial crisis worsens, not only will our coming and going be closely monitored, so will all our financial transactions.

Taking your money out of the country physically or electronically is strictly regulated by the eagle eyes of the FBI, the CIA, the Department of Homeland Security, and, you would never guess, the IRS as well. Violations of currency transaction laws, even when not associated with any criminal activity, are severely punished. Expatriation is frowned upon. Currency controls—limits on all overseas transactions and purchases—are commonplace in a faltering economy with a falling currency, which we will have to deal with one day.

A tight border policy to keep certain people out is one thing, but tight border control to limit our ability to leave when we please is something else. America is already working on an electronic financial curtain, which I predict will steadily get worse. The leaders of neither the Republican nor the Democratic party can expect to protect our civil liberties when times get tough: Both support illegal wars; both support Patriot Act suppression of our privacy; both strongly endorse the multitrillion dollar bailout of Wall Street. Neither party will protect our right to vote with our feet and take our money with us. The right of a citizen to leave the country anytime with his wealth and without government interference is a sharp dividing line between a free society and a dictatorship.

We must be vigilant when the cry is for closed borders, since such a policy may turn out to be more harmful to us than those who come here illegally. The Patriot Act did great harm to the liberties of the American people, and that sacrifice has not made us safer. Arizona-type immigration legislation can turn out to be harmful. Being able to stop any American citizen under the vague charge of “suspicion” is dangerous, even more so in the age of secret prisons and a stated position of assassinating American citizens if deemed a “threat,” without charges ever being made. The Real ID, supported by those demanding stricter control of our borders, was rejected by many because it was eventually seen as a step toward a national ID card.

There’s no reason to assume that any single group of hardworking Americans won’t accept the principles of a free society. That’s what most immigrants seek regardless of the color of their skin. Why shouldn’t they be open to the arguments of defending private property, free markets, sound money, right to life, low taxes, less war, protection of civil liberties, and especially a foreign policy designed for peace rather than perpetual war?

Some conservatives and Republicans, in my view, insult many minorities by appealing for their votes only by trying to outdo the Democrats with giveaway programs. Why shouldn't a strong message of personal liberty, self-reliance, and economic opportunity be appealing to immigrants as well as lifelong citizens? With the total failure of the welfare state and our foreign policy, it will become more evident that the door is wide open for the solutions that a free society provides.

Paul, Ron (2011-04-19). Liberty Defined: 50 Essential Issues That Affect Our Freedom (Kindle Locations 1928-2045). Grand Central Publishing. Kindle Edition.

 

[Carlybee]

And is this not what I have been saying?

Enforce the laws now on the books with more border guards; permit states to enforce the law; allow landowners to provide private property security assistance, just as we do every day throughout the United States, and to work with Federal Border Control authorities. Private landowners have a right to post No Trespassing signs on their property to achieve this.

Do not grant automatic citizenship to children of illegal immigrants born in the United States, deliberately or accidentally.

Stop all federal mandates on the states to provide free education and medical care for illegal immigrants. The absurdity that South Texas schools are overburdened with Mexican children going back and forth over the border each day to our public school systems is resented by cash-strapped school districts.

I disagree with him in a couple of ways but the main gist of it I support.

 

[Ender]

Paul, Ron (2011-04-19). Liberty Defined: 50 Essential Issues That Affect Our Freedom (Kindle Locations 1928-2045). Grand Central Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Thank you- awesome ponderings by RP.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

And is this not what I have been saying?

I disagree with him in a couple of ways but the main gist of it I support.

Why do you think I posted it?

There were a few points made that illustrate my position (more or less) that could have been posted absent the entirety... the entire context was warranted. I could go through and illustrate the points on which Ron Paul is correct (I think this should be especially noted: "This solution is far from perfect, but solutions to government-induced problems are never easy. Since our economic problems have been the major contributing factor, all other solutions come up short. Maximum freedom for everyone is the best way to go in solving any of our problems.") and I could illustrate that he is wrong on a few things (notably border agents.... if he wishes to fund them, that would be his prerogative. Lysander Spooner effectively destroyed any case to be had with regards to the social contract theory in No Treason).

I figured you'd enjoy the read. I do think that my arguments in favor of that which I've argued (that I should not be robbed to pay for both the immigrant's journey and/or lifestyle as well as interdiction efforts) have been sound.