Are gold coins a good investement?

[heavenlyboy34]

Gold is an investment. The fiat money system is teetering over a very large cliff. There is nowhere near enough gold to cover the paper gold in the world. When our fingertips can no longer hold on to that last rock keeping us from the abyss and fiat becomes a joke (except no longer funny) those holding gold will be the lucky ones. Gold is for the future when the economy tanks is the way i am looking at it. DYODD!!

What about silver/platinum/palladium/copper?

 

[Becker]

You were previously talking about it as MONEY, now you're just telling me it's legal as CURRENCY.

Slow down, tell me first, what does Utah's re-legalization change , or mean?

I asked you already, WHERE AND WHEN did you last trade gold as money or currency, or barter?

Utah is just the first state to re-legalize Silver and Gold as legal currency again. Besides Utah, 12 other states proposing Gold and Silver legal tender laws: Colorado, Georgia, Montana, Missouri, Indiana, Iowa, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vermont and Washington. The trend is your friend my friend. When Federal Reserve Notes stop functioning as currency, the rest of the states that haven't re-legalized Silver/Gold as legal tender will do so within 24/48hrs.

Money CAN be used as a Currency. ie Silver/Gold coins for 5,000+ years
Currency doesn't have to be Money. ie *Federal Reserve Notes

(*Federal Reserve Notes don't quality as Money because they do not store value over time)

According to this inflation calculator: What cost $100 in 1910 would cost $2310.26 in 2010. Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2010 and 1910, they would cost you $100 and $4.24 respectively. You can see how Federal Reserve Notes do NOT store value over time. While at the same time in 1910 1oz of Gold was $20, today ~$1650. What cost you $100 in 1910 would've cost 5oz of Gold. 5oz of Gold today is worth $8,250 and will therefore purchase 3.6X more than today's Federal Reserve Notes. Gold has INCREASED it's purchasing power over this 100 year period. Thus, it is an excellent store of value and qualifies as Money. The Fed Govt. has deemed it illegal currency with their legal tender laws. But, that is and will change very quickly as the USD goes boom.

 

[Becker]

What about silver/platinum/palladium/copper?

whether something is an investment is subjective to the intention of the investor.
One can say buying land is an investment if by investment he means "having one rather than none".
One can buy a CD that's guaranteed to depreciate, if he at least believes it'll depreciate slower than the dollar in his hand.

 

[Becker]

Of course not that many folks use gold as a medium of exchange right now because the Government taxes it. It however will be used when the Government-enforced legal tender is destroyed, or, compromised to such a point it is better to take the tax hit than it is to use their monopoly money. Gold is money; always has been & always will be. Silver is in the same boat. Another fact is FRN's are the only allowable unit of exchange currently allowed for debts thanks to the Government-goon squads who will come and arrest you if you say you do not want to take FRN's as payments for debt even if you have contractually agreed upon a different exchange medium beforehand.

Gold is undervalued given the current fundamentals and trajectory of the economic system and the legal-tender currency. Helicopter Ben will print to infinity trust me on this.

what is the difference between silver and copper, other than the price per ounce?
What is the difference between copper and toilet paper, other than the price per ounce (which isnt much)?
is there anything that ISN'T money? If gold and silver are to be considered money even though most people can't tell me when it was last used as money or currency?

 

[ctiger2]

You were previously talking about it as MONEY, now you're just telling me it's legal as CURRENCY.

Slow down, tell me first, what does Utah's re-legalization change , or mean?

I asked you already, WHERE AND WHEN did you last trade gold as money or currency, or barter?

Money and Currency are two separate things. That being said, Money (Silver/Gold) can be used as a Currency (Silver/Gold Coins) AND a Currency (Fed Reserve Notes) doesn't have to be Money as I explained in the previous post. The market (people) have chosen Silver and Gold as Money for 5,000+ years, but, the Fed Govt. deems them illegal (Legal Tender Laws) to be used as official US Currency.

Utah has re-legalized Silver and Gold as official Currencies in Utah. So, in Utah, Silver and Gold are now Money AND Currency. You can use Silver and Gold to purchase goods and services in Utah. More states coming soon...

I've never used Gold in trade, barter or as a Currency. I will though once the state I'm in re-legalizes it. I wouldn't do it now even if it was legal currency because it's way way undervalued. That will be fixed in due time. Patience is a virtue.

 

[Becker]

Money and Currency are two separate things. That being said, Money (Silver/Gold) can be used as a Currency (Silver/Gold Coins) AND a Currency (Fed Reserve Notes) doesn't have to be Money as I explained in the previous post. The market (people) have chosen Silver and Gold as Money for 5,000+ years, but, the Fed Govt. deems them illegal (Legal Tender Laws) to be used as official US Currency.

I would say currency is always a subset of money, even if its forced or de facto, but no need to argue details.
The market also operated without computers, international phones lines, airplanes, for 5000 years, somehow that's an indication we should or shouldn't have it?
Ok, it's illegal to use as official US currency, NOT illegal to be bartered as unofficial, voluntary money, currency.
So may I ask you again, for your personal purposes, when and where was the last place and time gold worked as a money for you?

Utah has re-legalized Silver and Gold as official Currencies in Utah. So, in Utah, Silver and Gold are now Money AND Currency.
You can use Silver and Gold to purchase goods and services in Utah. More states coming soon...

all forms? or only US mint?
Was it ever illegal to trade US mint products at its metal value or whatever 2 parties agree on?
Are gold and silver forced acceptance (legal tender)?

I've never used Gold in trade, barter or as a Currency. I will though once the state I'm in re-legalizes it. I wouldn't do it now even if it was legal currency because it's way way undervalued. That will be fixed in due time. Patience is a virtue.

so you admit for practical and legal purposes, it's not money.
is it undervalued because the face value of a $50 coin is worth over $1000 in metal value?
Or is gold too cheap at $1600 right now? If so, do you invest 100% of your money in it? Or do you have other priorities and other places to spread your eggs?

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

what is the difference between silver and copper, other than the price per ounce?
What is the difference between copper and toilet paper, other than the price per ounce (which isnt much)?
is there anything that ISN'T money? If gold and silver are to be considered money even though most people can't tell me when it was last used as money or currency?

It has always been money. Gold, silver, and occasionally land or other highly demanded commodities have been money as money only arises out of the market. It is Mises Regression Theorem. It hasn't yet been dis-proven and over the whole of recorded history the same story holds true. Government fiat-currency always replaces Gold, Silver, etc. since it gives the Government absolutely impunity to do what it wishes to do as it can print them at their own volition. For something to be money it has to have other uses besides being a medium of exchange. Gold and silver both have long been used as industrial metals, jewelry, adornments, etc. and they also share common properties which make them more highly valued as money -- namely their ability to hold large stores of value in extremely small quantities, as a rare resource unable to be freely counterfeited (store of value; clipping is not the same as counterfeiting, though it is debasement and fraud), and their ability to last for eons, among many others which are not found on any other products. They do not rot. They do not degrade.

As for when it was last used? It is used today in many countries where you see Government-monopoly money has been imploded -- for instance Zimbabwe & Somalia.

If you cannot tell the difference between copper and toilet paper and their properties, I really do not feel the need to continue this conversation.

http://mises.org/daily/1333

Origin of Money & It's Value

 

[Tinnuhana]

I've always heard gold and silver is a preservation of wealth. Like when Ron responded to Michelle B's statement in debate that she'd bring back $2/gallon gas. He said he could get a gallon for a nickel...a pre-1965 one. If deflation took place, that coin would still buy the same amt. of stuff. If inflation took place, same thing. The person's buying power remains constant. Same with the silver I bought. A Ron Paul presidency would see that silver's valuation in dollars go down, but it would not be a bad thing as far as purchasing power.
Now if you are considering coins as an investment, you want to collect coins of numismatic (coin collection) value. These will increase in value with time. My dealer got me interested in Chinese Pandas, since as the people of the PRC gain wealth, many of them will want to "repatriate" the coins their gov't refused to sell to them. An easy collection to start with for US coins is the silver Peace Dollar. I think there are only about 29 coins to collect and none of them are off-the-wall expensive like Morgans. If you can get these coins already graded and in a sealed case, so much the better. I only have nine more Morgans to go. Two are pretty common dates, where a nice MS-63 will cost about $350. The others are fairly rare. The only reason I don't have them yet is that he doesn't have any good MS coins with these dates (yet). He's holding two others for me: one is about $850 and the other is a nice MS-61+ of a key date for about $3600. I'll be saving up big time for that.
So if you're concerned about the ups and downs on COMEX, etc., go for the old coins with numismatic value and then just get silver junk you don't mind selling when times get tough. JMO

 

[ctiger2]

so you admit for practical and legal purposes, it's not money.

No, Silver and Gold are money, they are not legal currency yet, except in Utah so far.

 

[Becker]

No, Silver and Gold are money, they are not legal currency yet, except in Utah so far.

what isn't money then?

 

[Becker]

I've always heard gold and silver is a preservation of wealth. Like when Ron responded to Michelle B's statement in debate that she'd bring back $2/gallon gas. He said he could get a gallon for a nickel...a pre-1965 one. If deflation took place, that coin would still buy the same amt. of stuff. If inflation took place, same thing. The person's buying power remains constant. Same with the silver I bought. A Ron Paul presidency would see that silver's valuation in dollars go down, but it would not be a bad thing as far as purchasing power.
Now if you are considering coins as an investment, you want to collect coins of numismatic (coin collection) value. These will increase in value with time. My dealer got me interested in Chinese Pandas, since as the people of the PRC gain wealth, many of them will want to "repatriate" the coins their gov't refused to sell to them. An easy collection to start with for US coins is the silver Peace Dollar. I think there are only about 29 coins to collect and none of them are off-the-wall expensive like Morgans. If you can get these coins already graded and in a sealed case, so much the better. I only have nine more Morgans to go. Two are pretty common dates, where a nice MS-63 will cost about $350. The others are fairly rare. The only reason I don't have them yet is that he doesn't have any good MS coins with these dates (yet). He's holding two others for me: one is about $850 and the other is a nice MS-61+ of a key date for about $3600. I'll be saving up big time for that.
So if you're concerned about the ups and downs on COMEX, etc., go for the old coins with numismatic value and then just get silver junk you don't mind selling when times get tough. JMO

I am against buying numismatic, at least not until you've done a sufficient amount of homework.
You can be easily suckered into overpaying for subjective value, and not be able to sell it and make your money back.
Whereas bullion, metal value is metal value, hard to lose track.

 

[Becker]

It has always been money. Gold, silver, and occasionally land or other highly demanded commodities have been money as money only arises out of the market.

So gold and silver is money even if there's no demand in the market?

It is Mises Regression Theorem. It hasn't yet been dis-proven and over the whole of recorded history the same story holds true.

Wrong. It's been untrue the moment countries stopped using a gold standard, otherwise the market demand alone would dictate that it stays as money.

Government fiat-currency always replaces Gold, Silver, etc. since it gives the Government absolutely impunity to do what it wishes to do as it can print them at their own volition.

Why can't that be the result of market demand?

For something to be money it has to have other uses besides being a medium of exchange.

Such as wiping your butt?

Gold and silver both have long been used as industrial metals, jewelry, adornments, etc.

that's true, which means they are only valuable in industrial countries

and they also share common properties which make them more highly valued as money -- namely their ability to hold large stores of value in extremely small quantities,

In other words, because it's expensive and rare.

as a rare resource unable to be freely counterfeited (store of value; clipping is not the same as counterfeiting, though it is debasement and fraud), and their ability to last for eons, among many others which are not found on any other products. They do not rot. They do not degrade.

As for when it was last used? It is used today in many countries where you see Government-monopoly money has been imploded -- for instance Zimbabwe & Somalia.

If you cannot tell the difference between copper and toilet paper and their properties, I really do not feel the need to continue this conversation.

http://mises.org/daily/1333

Origin of Money & It's Value

You missed the point about how copper and toilet paper are near the same value on the market?
But you don't live in Somalia or Zimbabwe, so you're not using it, I take it.

 

[BrendenR]

I think you all are arguing around each other, because money has multiple functions, of which, gold currently does not meet all of.

The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value; and, occasionally in the past, a standard of deferred payment.[4][5]

Lets go through them.

1. Gold in our society today is not used as a medium of exchange in the day to day marketplace.

2. It is also not used as a unit of account, except perhaps by some serious Austrian economics buffs.

3. Gold IS used as a store of value by society in general (both central banks/governments, and private individuals).

So I would say that while gold is not currently used as money, it does have all the properties that make it a great money, and additionally, it is currently used as a store of value.

And to me, that is the most important attribute. I could care less what type of notes I hand to the guy who gives me my groceries. I DO care that what I am storing as my savings maintains its value.

 

[Becker]

I think you all are arguing around each other, because money has multiple functions, of which, gold currently does not meet all of.

thank you.

 

[Legend1104]

He seems to think so:

 

[Krugerrand]

I think you all are arguing around each other, because money has multiple functions, of which, gold currently does not meet all of.



Lets go through them.

1. Gold in our society today is not used as a medium of exchange in the day to day marketplace.

2. It is also not used as a unit of account, except perhaps by some serious Austrian economics buffs.

3. Gold IS used as a store of value by society in general (both central banks/governments, and private individuals).

So I would say that while gold is not currently used as money, it does have all the properties that make it a great money, and additionally, it is currently used as a store of value.

And to me, that is the most important attribute. I could care less what type of notes I hand to the guy who gives me my groceries. I DO care that what I am storing as my savings maintains its value.

I see points one and two as if the government said that eating bread was illegal (unless you are a federal reserve banker) - bread could no longer be considered food.

Perhaps we should find a point of agreement, such as - these are not a good investment:

 

[Becker]

I see points one and two as if the government said that eating bread was illegal (unless you are a federal reserve banker) - bread could no longer be considered food.

bread is food as long as somebody eats it, without the intention of killing himself.

and gold is money as long as it's accepted and exchanged as such, and only if.

 

[matt0611]

I think you all are arguing around each other, because money has multiple functions, of which, gold currently does not meet all of.



Lets go through them.

1. Gold in our society today is not used as a medium of exchange in the day to day marketplace.

2. It is also not used as a unit of account, except perhaps by some serious Austrian economics buffs.

3. Gold IS used as a store of value by society in general (both central banks/governments, and private individuals).

So I would say that while gold is not currently used as money, it does have all the properties that make it a great money, and additionally, it is currently used as a store of value.

And to me, that is the most important attribute. I could care less what type of notes I hand to the guy who gives me my groceries. I DO care that what I am storing as my savings maintains its value.

Excellent post.

The store of value is the most important one.

Who cares if you can't use it directly to go shopping? You can just exchange it for some money to do that.

Gold is suppressed as money because of legal tender laws, capital gains laws, and the fact that the governments take fiat in form of taxes.
Its still a great store of value.

 

[Seraphim]

You are confusing MONEY and CURRENCY.

They are not the same.

Gold is MONEY.

The USD is legal tender/currency.

Currency is derived from the word CURRENT.

I think you all are arguing around each other, because money has multiple functions, of which, gold currently does not meet all of.



Lets go through them.

1. Gold in our society today is not used as a medium of exchange in the day to day marketplace.

2. It is also not used as a unit of account, except perhaps by some serious Austrian economics buffs.

3. Gold IS used as a store of value by society in general (both central banks/governments, and private individuals).

So I would say that while gold is not currently used as money, it does have all the properties that make it a great money, and additionally, it is currently used as a store of value.

And to me, that is the most important attribute. I could care less what type of notes I hand to the guy who gives me my groceries. I DO care that what I am storing as my savings maintains its value.

 

[Becker]

You are confusing MONEY and CURRENCY.

They are not the same.

Gold is MONEY.

The USD is legal tender/currency.

Currency is derived from the word CURRENT.

can you give me an example of something that is physically tangible but isn't money?