AR-15 vs M1A

[asmartchimp]

Hello,

My next gun purchase has come down to either an AR15 or a Springfield Scout M1A. I would prefer the M1A just based on looks but as a student the price for ammo really comes into play. As far as I can tell the cheapest .308 is $.50 a bullet, while I can get .223 suitable for training for around $.35 a bullet. Really what I need to know is if a medium grade AR is suitable for reliably hitting targets out to 400-500 yards or is that really the domain of the M1A. This gun will be used purely for target shooting and a potential shtf situation so hunting is not a factor. Thanks

 

[hypnagogue]

I've never fired either weapon, and I'm honestly a novice with regard to firearms, but I can tell you the m1a is sexier.

 

[SeanEdwards]

I'd go with the lighter round. The ammo for the M1A is crazy expensive to use for target shooting.

 

[Bryan]

With an AR you could also do some training with .22LR rounds with a conversion kit ($100ish).

The right AR can shoot very accurate- what barrel length would you consider for an AR?

 

[noxagol]

Well, I would go with the M1A myself. The 5.56 round is utter garbage against anything with armor, especially once you get into distances over 200m. The M1A has as much kinetic energy in its round at 300m as the M16 does straight out of the barrel.

If you are worried about the cost of ammo, get into reloading. You will quickly make your money back and you will be independent of the increases in supplies. If you get heavy into shooting, reloading will save you thousands, especially if you get into making your own ammo by swaging. It is an investment to get started in but it will quickly pay for itself. You could be making your own rounds to your own specifications for pennies a round.

As for ranges out to 400-500m, the M1A will win hands down without a doubt. And up close you could most likely penetrate level IV body armor and anything less will be like paper.

 

[asmartchimp]

With an AR you could also do some training with .22LR rounds with a conversion kit ($100ish).

The right AR can shoot very accurate- what barrel length would you consider for an AR?

I am looking at a 20" Bushmaster right now. The .22LR kit sounds interesting I hadn't thought of that.

 

[newyearsrevolution08]

I would get an m1a, if you are scared of bullet prices then get a .22

I can see the point in getting the .22 upper for the ar BUT is it really the same thing? NOPE.

If you want a solid rifle stick with an ar OR m1a AND if you want to shoot paper then buy a ruger 10/22.

I just don't see the point in training in a .22 cartridge when you plan on using it as your main rifle in an entirely different cartridge.

I would go with the m1a just because I love a specific aftermarket stock for it which is this beauty here.

 

[Bryan]

If one is going up against armor at 300m+, how about a BMG 50? I say that half joking, to me it seems a good solution is a semi-auto carbine with a cheap round and something else with some serious punch for long range- but the rounds will be $$$.

Since this is for a SHTF situation it would seem dealing with armor at long range may take a back seat to light and cheap rounds - ???

 

[noxagol]

Well, if you can't kill what you hit, then you may as well be throwing pebbles or spit wads at your target.

 

[Bryan]

Well, if you can't kill what you hit, then you may as well be throwing pebbles or spit wads at your target.

If you are hunting, then yes- but for defensive purposes wouldn't rebuffing any assault be a good start? Obviously in that situation the more firepower the better...

 

[ronpaulblogsdotcom]

If one is going up against armor at 300m+, how about a BMG 50? I say that half joking, to me it seems a good solution is a semi-auto carbine with a cheap round and something else with some serious punch for long range- but the rounds will be $$$.

Since this is for a SHTF situation it would seem dealing with armor at long range may take a back seat to light and cheap rounds - ???

But the cheapest 50 BMG gun is about $5000 and that is not a very good gun IMO. Too heavy, Too much kick, and insanely loud. I cant imagine what that is like shooting in a building to an outside location. Way too loud.

You could buy ten good guns for the price of that thing.

 

[Gideon]

The sexier the better...

I've never fired either weapon, and I'm honestly a novice with regard to firearms, but I can tell you the m1a is sexier.

Why research any further?

The sexier rifle is the way to go!

In fact, when you carry a sexy battle-rifle, the enemy will swoon, drool, drop their own rifles, whistle, and if you play it right, they will follow you home.

Seriously, go with the sexy rifle, and by the way, size does matter, and enemy chicks totally dig the .50 BMG.

 

[newyearsrevolution08]

lol

that shit is funny

the ar and m1 have both been proven battlefield weapons.

Get a .308 round at least

then get into reloading..

that is the way I plan on it at least.

Oh also don't forget to go to an appleseed shoot as well.

Iron Sights first THEN scope if wanted.

I skipped the iron sight training and got too comfy with a scope and need to break myself of that so I can shoot correctly or as the appleseed would put it "uncommonly well".

On the 50bmg deal, I keep reading how many are looking at the .416 and some are seeing BETTER results than the 50bmg BUT don't quote me on it. For me those sized rounds are too damn pricey and would only come out when a tank was coming at me or I needed to shoot down a helicopter from some crazy ww3 scenario. All could happen BUT man that is one pricey rifle to shoot.

Looks bad as hell though. I wonder if the 50bmg has a 10/22 upper option as well

Why research any further?

The sexier rifle is the way to go!

In fact, when you carry a sexy battle-rifle, the enemy will swoon, drool, drop their own rifles, whistle, and if you play it right, they will follow you home.

Seriously, go with the sexy rifle, and by the way, size does matter, and enemy chicks totally dig the .50 BMG.

 

[TruckinMike]

Hello,

My next gun purchase has come down to either an AR15 or a Springfield Scout M1A. I would prefer the M1A just based on looks but as a student the price for ammo really comes into play. As far as I can tell the cheapest .308 is $.50 a bullet, while I can get .223 suitable for training for around $.35 a bullet. Really what I need to know is if a medium grade AR is suitable for reliably hitting targets out to 400-500 yards or is that really the domain of the M1A. This gun will be used purely for target shooting and a potential shtf situation so hunting is not a factor. Thanks

There is a great thread on this somewhere...

Anyway, this is a no brainer.

1. Buy a Ruger 10/22 for practice ($200) - aka "The Liberty Training Rifle" http://rwva.info/rwva%20pages/libertytrainingrifle.html

2. Also buy the M1A, its good for two and four legged creatures.

Note: The Liberty training Rifle is similar to the M1A in function - especially if you install the recommended improvements from the above link. Save Lots of MULA and train with the 22. By choosing the M1A/Ruger combo you'll reap the benefits of not compromising with a lessor cartridge (the 5.56) and have the best of both worlds. Cheap training and supreme cartridge.

Note: I have an M1A, FAL, and an AR, I will tell you - the M1A is definitely the sweetest shooting one of the pack - hands down! It may be ol' Skool, but its rock solid and accurate.

Oh yeah, in case no one has mentioned it - Make sure that you attend an Appleseed shoot. http://www.appleseedinfo.org/index.htm

What People Are Saying About Appleseed

"My son and I attended the Wabash Appleseed over the weekend and I just wanted to thank everyone involved with setting up and running this fine program. I was very impressed with the professionalism of the instructors (Fred and Guy) and the quality rifle training presented in just two short days.

"I am a US Army combat veteran who's been through the Army's Basic Rifle Marksmanship and Advanced Rifle Marksmanship programs not to mention various live fire couses and even jungle snap fire training courses in Panama. I have to say that this two day program is hands down the best rifle training I've ever received. Not to mention the added bonus of a Revolutionary War history lesson which I thoroughly enjoyed. I've just returned from the library where I checked out two books on the American Revolution. I'm ashamed that I didn't know more about the brave men who founded this country. You've opened my eyes to what needs to be done to turn this country around. I'm proud of my hard earned Rifleman badge and I'm proud to call myself a rifleman who's ready to defend freedom. Thank you for what your doing and God Bless you."

David J., Proud Rifleman
Middletown, Indiana

"...thank you for the excellent training, and for re-energizing my commitment to becoming a rifleman. I feel like I learned more in the first thirty shots on Saturday than I have in years prior! It was a real pleasure to have met everyone and worked together for the weekend, and I hope to see you again at a later date."

Dr.FrankenFAL
From the Forum

"Good morning! I attended the Appleseed in Ottawa last weekend, which was an outstanding experience, aside from the rain of course. This was the first firearm training in which I have ever participated and the quality of the instructors and the activities throughout the course are top notch! While I did not shoot “Rifleman”, I learned a great deal, improved my abilities and now have the tools needed to continue improving. I definitely plan in attending another session or sessions in the future, and will recommend it to everyone I know who is interested in learning a little more about our history and how to more accurately shoot a rifle.

Chris S.
Lindenhurst , IL

"I debated about making the long drive from southern California, thinking it might not be worth the trip, and that I wouldn't learn enough to justify the expense.

"I'm glad I lost the argument with myself...
"I'm glad I came.
"I learned more than I expected.
"I now shoot better than I ever expected.
"And when I get a little more used to the positions, I will be a Rifleman. I will...
"No more being a cook for me."

Appleseed participant, Medford, OR

"I attended the Orlando Appleseed shoot over the weekend. First, let me say that if you ever have the chance to go to an Appleseed, by all means do so! Those of us newbies learned riflery from some really first-class instructors. Even the seasoned hands learned a thing or two."

Ceetee on the rimfirecentral.com forum

"In the closing days of 2006, I penned a short article listing a few of my New Year Resolutions:

1. Become a Rifleman
2. Compliment my handgun skills with some long arm abilities

To begin my journey, I read as much as I could. My spoiled, lazy rear convinced me that would be sufficient during the first cold months of an Ohio winter and I was on my way. I could not have been more wrong. That complacent attitude was officially banished this past weekend when I attended an Appleseed Shoot sponsored by the fine folks at the Revolutionary War Veterans Association (RWVA).

I went from having fired twenty rounds of centerfire rifle ammunition in my life to consistently hitting (simulated) 400 yard targets with iron sights and a .30-caliber long arm after only two days of Appleseed instruction."

From MeanStreaker on thefiringline.com forum

"I attended the Saturday 2-24-07 session of the Ramseur, NC Appleseed AQT shoot, sponsored by the (RWVA) Revolutionary War Veterans Association. This was an outstanding event and I learned a great deal from the instructors and greatly improved my rifleman's skills. I also satisfied the CMP affiliated club and shooting requirements.

"If you are not fimilar with this organization and what it stands for you really need to check it out. If you want to be a true rifleman and improve your shooting you should attend an Appleseed shoot in your area."

JimCope on the SurplusRifleForum.com

I had a great time shooting last month at Proctor, VT. I really want to thank you for doing this. I want to thank Fred for his gentle prodding over the last few years that finally got me to the range. Thank You

From Greg S.
Proctor, VT Appleseed

I would like to thank all the instructors, the range host & co-attendees at the Appleseed for their extreme patience with a nearly blind dad & his very nervous young son! It was great to meet each of you & the learning was worth much more than the few $$$ paid for attendance.

Having a third party work with my son was fantastic - it took the pressure off of him and allowed him to end the first day hopping up & down to come back the second day. Now that the ice has been broken - he'll be much more at ease going with me to a local range to plink at targets.

Thanks again to everyone involved! I'll see ya'll again at another one!

To anyone who is 'on the fence' about attending - GO. You can read, study & practice 'your way'... or you can go somewhere and learn how to do things right.

Appleseeds will teach you how to do things right!

Lunghd

TMike

 

[jkm1864]

The M1A has alot more power hands on. I would also venture to say the iron sites on the rifle are accurate up to 500 yards. Over 500 yards the .223 isn't worth a damn. The only reason they went with .223 is because the army did a study and found that a .223 in 4 round burst mode is more accurate and does more damage than a .308 round. Now since We can not buy automatic weapons the decision is fairly obvious to go with the rifle that does more damage with one shot. I personaly have a M1A scout and I love it because its solid and not a piece of plastic like the ar15. Now on the other hand the ar15 is still a deadly weapon .... all in all its up to you...

 

[JRegs85]

Have you considered an AR-10?

 

[newyearsrevolution08]

do you suggest the .223 over the .308 for your own reasons or for the military reasoning? Just wondering because I go back and forth between which round I want to end up with.

I keep going to the .308 because I want to also get a remington 700 and that in the .308 is amazing and then I would be able to have a couple rifles with the same round.

Any thoughts on why I should go with the .223 all around?

--------------------------

To the OP -----

Is there a specific round you were looking for or does that matter? Reason I ask is, I can see a round shooting better in ONE rifle over the other as far as accuracy and worse in the other.

I wonder if there is some bullet data between these two rifles and the same round.

great post, I see plenty of knowledge being passed in this thread and can't wait to soak it all in with you.

The M1A has alot more power hands on. I would also venture to say the iron sites on the rifle are accurate up to 500 yards. Over 500 yards the .223 isn't worth a damn. The only reason they went with .223 is because the army did a study and found that a .223 in 4 round burst mode is more accurate and does more damage than a .308 round. Now since We can not buy automatic weapons the decision is fairly obvious to go with the rifle that does more damage with one shot. I personaly have a M1A scout and I love it because its solid and not a piece of plastic like the ar15. Now on the other hand the ar15 is still a deadly weapon .... all in all its up to you...

 

[GunnyFreedom]

While the .308 is a better main battle round than the 5.56; I have to take issue with the notion that the 5.56 is not lethal at 400-500 yards.

Indeed, in Vietnam there were anecdotal evidences that at extreme range the 55 grain 5.56 was weak. They upgraded to the 62 grain round and extended lethality to 550 yards.

Today, we go to Iraq, and lo and behold these new short barrel rifles, the M4's (which do not develop nearly the muzzle velocity of the 20" M16) have lethality issues with the 62 grain rounds beyond 300.

So they go to a 77 grain round, and now even the M4's retain lethal terminal ballistics out to 500 yards and beyond.

The point being that the termanal ballistics and energy transfer of the 5.56 (.223) round, depend greatly on barrel length and the grain weight of the round.

In my AR, I fire a 75 grain match round, I have a 1:7 twistrate barrel, and I have a full length 20" barrel. I would venture that I retain lethal terminal ballistics at least out to 900 yards.

And even if going with a full sized barrel and a heavier round DIDN'T dramatically increase knockdown and energy transfer (which it does) bear in mind that most combat engagements take place between 50 and 100 yards.

And the AR platform is incredibally accurate.

Again, which weapon to go with really depends on your situation. The AR platform is at home in a melee situation. The scenario in which the AR would be the 'best' platform would be... you have a whole platoon of zombies cresting a hill and rushing at yoou from 400 yards away. 38 to 52 tangos running headlong towards you from 400 yards away. This is when the AR platform comes into it's own as a melee weapon. The AR has WAY faster followup than the M1A, and a higher mag cap, and better ammo portability. In that particular scenatio, chances are with an AR and enough skill, you will survive. With an M1A you'd have to work miracles in the same situation.

But don't take that as an endorsement of the AR over the M1A. Every tool for it's right job. There is a major difference between an "Assault Rifle" and a "Battle Rifle." The AR is an Assault Rifle, and the M1A is a Battle Rifle.

You have a very very valid point about the ability to share rounds between an M1A and a Remington 700. That is an incredibally handy option to have. Especially if you reload and/or swage your own rounds.

I'll have a lot more to say about the contrast between the two weapons later tonight, but I just had to go ahead and post to refute the notion that the AR is ineffective at range.

First, I would never get an AR with less than the full size 20" barrel, due particularly to the muzzle velocity issue mentioned above. The reality is that if you get one with a 1:9 twistrate barrel, then you can practice with 55gr rounds, and keep 69 grain rounds in reserve for necessary combat. If you get one with a 1:7 twistrate barrel, then you can practice with 62gr rounds, and keep 75gr rounds on hand for combat. I would recommend the 1:7, as the 62gr practice round could work as a combat round in a pinch (you can also shoot 62 gr from the 1:9 btw); and the ability to fire the heavier 75gr round achieves incredibaly terminal velocity.

When I post tonight comparing the two more directly, I'll pull up the old ballistics calculator and produce hard numbers to refute the notion that a .308 has more impact energy at 500 yards than a 5.56 has at the muzzle...and further contrast that data with the effect of the heavier 69 and 75 grain rounds.

 

[Doktor_Jeep]

Sadly the M1A is a very expensive rifle to feed, and so many end up with the other rifle that cannot penetrate a wall when hitting at an angle.

But there will be plenty of ammo and extra magazines laying around when the time comes.

 

[Pericles]

Other have covered many of the relative merit of 5.56 vs. 7.62, so my advice is that you choice should be made based on the following factors.

1. Mission
2. Logistics
3. Organization
4. Weight

Mission is the first factor that determines the equipment to use. Are you going to be relatively stationary, or on the move? At what ranges do you expect to have to engage targets, and how many targets are you likely to have? Stationary defense favors a heavier weapon with longer range over a weapon with lesser range. A large number of opponents favors a weapon with rapid accurate fire capability.

How will you resupply ammunition? I don't consider reloading to be the answer, as the supply of components faces the same issue as ammunition itself. What is one likely to find and scavenge from eliminated opponents? Realistically, this means the military calibers and loads. How many opponents will be using 5.56 and how many 7.62 - I'd say there will be more 5.56 out there.

Are you operating alone or as part of a team? A team can have a mix of weapons to increase effectiveness. The 7.62 shooter can engage at longer range, selecting key targets, while the 5.56 shooters work on thinning the herd as it gets closer.

What other gear will you carry? I've walked around with both the M-14 and M16 varieties in the woods for days at a time. For me, the AR series is the personal preference to carry, but I also have something to reach out farther stashed for position defense.

Lastly - who will have ballistic protection? If your opponents have it, torso shots will be much less effective - accuracy matters.