angelatc
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What makes you think we haven't? I spent some time in the pro-life camp, then decided that I was wrong.
Anyone else here pro-choice?
- Thread starter Starks
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What makes you think we haven't? I spent some time in the pro-life camp, then decided that I was wrong.
angelatc
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But you don't have the right to define those responsibilities.
" Originally Posted by RonPaulVolunteer View Post
I'd like to see these pro-choicers watch an ultrasound of an abortion taking place as the baby backs away from the vacuum and fights for its life and see the ripped and torn fetus sucked into a jar, and see how feel then."
Been there done that and as awful as it is it isn't nearly as bad as seeing a child grow up in an unwanted home with parents that can't afford to feed them and that either go into a foster environment to be abused and molested by foster parents in some cases. Children that are beat and not given an opportunity to escape.
Neither situation is good. Roe v. Wade should be overturned because there is no right to kill (which is what abortion is) but if the people decide through there elected representatives and they pass a law making it ok to kill unborn babies there is no reason it shouldn't be legal.
I'd like to see these pro-choicers watch an ultrasound of an abortion taking place as the baby backs away from the vacuum and fights for its life and see the ripped and torn fetus sucked into a jar, and see how feel then."
Been there done that and as awful as it is it isn't nearly as bad as seeing a child grow up in an unwanted home with parents that can't afford to feed them and that either go into a foster environment to be abused and molested by foster parents in some cases. Children that are beat and not given an opportunity to escape.
Neither situation is good. Roe v. Wade should be overturned because there is no right to kill (which is what abortion is) but if the people decide through there elected representatives and they pass a law making it ok to kill unborn babies there is no reason it shouldn't be legal.
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I think the whole abortion debate is a red-herring.
The establishment (government/corporate/military/media complex) wants everyone to be distracted by it and to get emotional about it so that you will ignore more important issues.
They can put up their sock-puppet candidates and say "this one is for and this one is against abortion, make your choice".
The establishment (government/corporate/military/media complex) wants everyone to be distracted by it and to get emotional about it so that you will ignore more important issues.
They can put up their sock-puppet candidates and say "this one is for and this one is against abortion, make your choice".
So much stuff here to respond to, but..
not nearly enough time.
Oh well. I'll just respond to the OP. (and a couple of others, I guess.)
He says, "The main reason I'm pro-choice is because of the ethical issue.
I'd rather abortions be safe, legal, and rare instead of unsafe, unregulated, and done on a whim."
So, let's break it down:
"The ethical issue" is your MAIN reason; what are your other reasons?
And what is THE ethical issue? Is there only one ethical issue associated with abortion? Your statement implies (perhaps unintentionally) that there is only one ethical issue, and you are on the right side of it. It follows that those who are "pro-life" are not on the right side of "the ethical issue."
I'd be willing to wager that there are quite a few ethical issues related to abortion, and choosing a side (there are more than two) probably requires being on the right side of some ethical issues and on the wrong side of others.
So, you have simply chosen one issue with respect to abortion that you perceive is important. That's fine, just realize that you're only looking at part of the picture; a rather small part of the picture.
Also, you state that you want abortions to be safe, legal, and rare. Do you want executions to be safe, legal, and rare? How about making unwanted pregnancies safe, legal, and rare? And, wouldn't abortions no less rare if they are safe and legal, than if they are unsafe and illegal. It seems to me that if I were a women facing an unwanted pregnancy, I would be much more inclined to have an abortion if it were safe and legal, than if it were unsafe and illegal. For certain, I would be much less inclined to have an abortion "on a whim" if it were unsafe and illegal. In fact, the chances of me having me having an abortion on a whim are much greater if it is safe and legal.
I suspect what you are really saying is that you want abortions to be safe and legal, and if they happen to be rare, so much the better, but safe and legal are the most important things.
I've got enough to say about this to fill a trilogy, but suffice it to say, I view that "clump of cells" (from conception on) with its own DNA as an individual human being with the same rights as any other human being. It's right to life is no greater or less than the right to life of any other human being, including its mother. Furthermore, the right of any human being's right to LIFE supersedes another's right to liberty, and pursuit of happiness, should they conflict.
I don't profess to know for certain where life begins, but when it comes to a human being, I will always err on the side of life, just as I would hope that others would do the same for me if there were a question.
And for the smart guys (and gals) who want to talk about cells (sperm, eggs, and otherwise), leave those cells to themselves and see if they develop into a new human being. When that happens get back to me, and I'll review my position.
not nearly enough time.
Oh well. I'll just respond to the OP. (and a couple of others, I guess.)
He says, "The main reason I'm pro-choice is because of the ethical issue.
I'd rather abortions be safe, legal, and rare instead of unsafe, unregulated, and done on a whim."
So, let's break it down:
"The ethical issue" is your MAIN reason; what are your other reasons?
And what is THE ethical issue? Is there only one ethical issue associated with abortion? Your statement implies (perhaps unintentionally) that there is only one ethical issue, and you are on the right side of it. It follows that those who are "pro-life" are not on the right side of "the ethical issue."
I'd be willing to wager that there are quite a few ethical issues related to abortion, and choosing a side (there are more than two) probably requires being on the right side of some ethical issues and on the wrong side of others.
So, you have simply chosen one issue with respect to abortion that you perceive is important. That's fine, just realize that you're only looking at part of the picture; a rather small part of the picture.
Also, you state that you want abortions to be safe, legal, and rare. Do you want executions to be safe, legal, and rare? How about making unwanted pregnancies safe, legal, and rare? And, wouldn't abortions no less rare if they are safe and legal, than if they are unsafe and illegal. It seems to me that if I were a women facing an unwanted pregnancy, I would be much more inclined to have an abortion if it were safe and legal, than if it were unsafe and illegal. For certain, I would be much less inclined to have an abortion "on a whim" if it were unsafe and illegal. In fact, the chances of me having me having an abortion on a whim are much greater if it is safe and legal.
I suspect what you are really saying is that you want abortions to be safe and legal, and if they happen to be rare, so much the better, but safe and legal are the most important things.
I've got enough to say about this to fill a trilogy, but suffice it to say, I view that "clump of cells" (from conception on) with its own DNA as an individual human being with the same rights as any other human being. It's right to life is no greater or less than the right to life of any other human being, including its mother. Furthermore, the right of any human being's right to LIFE supersedes another's right to liberty, and pursuit of happiness, should they conflict.
I don't profess to know for certain where life begins, but when it comes to a human being, I will always err on the side of life, just as I would hope that others would do the same for me if there were a question.
And for the smart guys (and gals) who want to talk about cells (sperm, eggs, and otherwise), leave those cells to themselves and see if they develop into a new human being. When that happens get back to me, and I'll review my position.
Kasira
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Female, atheist, pro-choice, pro-birth control, pro-sex ed. I'd like to live in a country where all pregnancies are wanted and celebrated, but that's not going to happen anytime soon, so we have to work with what we have.
Up until the fetus can survive outside the mother's body, it's not a person. That's why we have words like "fetus" and "zygote". It sounds better than "clump of cells smaller than the end of the fingernail on my pinkie finger". Because, for the first few months, that's all it is. And if it's unwanted, the best description would probably be parasite.
Pregnancy is a huge drain on a woman's body, even if it is a healthy pregnancy. I've seen enough friends go through their teenage pregnancies (yes, multiple) and come out looking 40 instead of 18. It's easy enough to say, "Oh, she's a skank, she should have kept her legs shut," but let's face it - NO ONE IS GOING TO STOP HAVING SEX.
So, we need to educate kids, so they're not going off half-cocked (har har) without a clue as to how to protect themselves. We should all, pro-choice and pro-life, be donating to low-cost birth control providers. If you really want to prevent abortions, that's the way to do it. You're not going to scare a bunch of teenagers who think they're invincible into not having sex. But you can keep them safe(r).
/rant off
//I was tempted to just say, "pro-abortion" and see what that got me.
Up until the fetus can survive outside the mother's body, it's not a person. That's why we have words like "fetus" and "zygote". It sounds better than "clump of cells smaller than the end of the fingernail on my pinkie finger". Because, for the first few months, that's all it is. And if it's unwanted, the best description would probably be parasite.
Pregnancy is a huge drain on a woman's body, even if it is a healthy pregnancy. I've seen enough friends go through their teenage pregnancies (yes, multiple) and come out looking 40 instead of 18. It's easy enough to say, "Oh, she's a skank, she should have kept her legs shut," but let's face it - NO ONE IS GOING TO STOP HAVING SEX.
So, we need to educate kids, so they're not going off half-cocked (har har) without a clue as to how to protect themselves. We should all, pro-choice and pro-life, be donating to low-cost birth control providers. If you really want to prevent abortions, that's the way to do it. You're not going to scare a bunch of teenagers who think they're invincible into not having sex. But you can keep them safe(r).
/rant off
//I was tempted to just say, "pro-abortion" and see what that got me.
I look at the issue on the basis of property rights.
The female owns her own body.
A parasitic fetus lives within her.
It is her choice whether to nurture the parasite
or to expel it.
Yes, this is crude analogy. But does the parasite have any property rights claim to the lifeblood of the mother?
Let the mother decide.
That is pro choice.
Once the parasite has been born, it is now a fully endowed person, with its own property rights. Should the mother decide to no longer support the parasite, she has many options.
BTW, I am a parent.
The female owns her own body.
A parasitic fetus lives within her.
It is her choice whether to nurture the parasite
or to expel it.
Yes, this is crude analogy. But does the parasite have any property rights claim to the lifeblood of the mother?
Let the mother decide.
That is pro choice.
Once the parasite has been born, it is now a fully endowed person, with its own property rights. Should the mother decide to no longer support the parasite, she has many options.
BTW, I am a parent.
MayTheRonBeWithYou
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EvilEngineer
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I'd say pro-choice, but it really doesn't encompass what I really feel. I'm more pro-death... for executions and for expanding it, support abortions up to age 18, and after 65.
Hence why I'm evil.
Hence why I'm evil.
My kind of woman.
Mine too
Oh crap, I probably just pissed off all the homophobes.
Last edited:
ValidusCustodiae
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im for letting people choose.. i should stop there tho :-X
QFT.
For Paul In Arkansas
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Pro-life here.. its foundational to our country.
Why do they say it is murder if you kill a child in the womb of a woman, but then say it isn't a life until birth. Rather contradictory I think eh?
Is a life only a life if a woman wants it? So... she can kill it and no one else can.
So the value of a life is subjective... not objective. It is only valuable if someone, namely if its mother loves it and wants it.
Uhhh....
Why do they say it is murder if you kill a child in the womb of a woman, but then say it isn't a life until birth. Rather contradictory I think eh?
Is a life only a life if a woman wants it? So... she can kill it and no one else can.
So the value of a life is subjective... not objective. It is only valuable if someone, namely if its mother loves it and wants it.
Uhhh....
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