Animal Rights?

Personally, I'll believe animals have rights when they assert them.

That being said, needless cruelty is evil.

That being said, I have my doubts that video is anything but a fake.
 
I said this on another forum when the Michael Vick story came out.

Animals are property. If they werent, then you wouldn't be able to eat them and to me none have any more value than another. You want to buy a dog and have it fight, then go ahead, just like if you want to buy a car and run it into the woods behind your house, thats your business.

That said, I don't think its moral to torture animals but we all have different boundries about animal rights. I personally think its a persons right to decide because the animal is owned by a person and covered by property rights. PETA thinks we should all be vegans and that animals are beings that own themselves. Most people fall somewhere in the middle.
 
This is a hard one because I am libertarian minded but I come to the conclusion that Animals do have at some level basic rights. The reasoning is that we take upon ourselves to pull them out of their natural environment. Once we do we alter their ability to take care of themselves and we assume upon ourselves to fill that void. If we were to lock up an animal and not feed or water them, then we have acted in a manner that violates that animals basic needs that we assumed to take on. Animal fighting is putting that animal in danger without the ability to escape. In nature the dog wood be able to run away in order to defend itself. Some animals are food but we also take care to not execute the animal in a cruel fashion. I have hunted and made certain that I put down the animal with as little cruelty as possible. Is it required by law or the bigger question should it be? I think so, mainly because of social contract and not because of Constitutional law. There comes a point in a society when certain things are so far below the basic moral fabric. Throwing a puppy is definitly one. In truth we cannot always destroy property at our own will. We must take into account the effect on our neighbors.
Within the strict libertarian sense, no I cannot justify the banning of dog fighting or other animal cruelty charges......
but damnit its a puppy....common.
 
There has been a whole other thread on this...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=53296&page=20

Here is one of my many posts from that thread:

Animal Rights Logic



1. Genetic changes and natural selection have resulted in different 'species'
2. Humans are one of those species.


Given you accept the above you cannot make artificial distinctions between species beyond those that are objectively observed. Each species has some unique characteristics but each has a common ancestry and so has many more similar characteristics. As you can see from the image below, in the early stages of ontogeny, different species look very similar. This is a remnant of their common ancestry. Note, in particular, that the human embryo (the far right) has a tail.

embryogenesis2.jpg



Now consider that a human has the 'right' not to be tortured by another human.


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Quick clarification: A human does not have the 'right' not to be tortured by an animal.
If a guy goes surfing and gets eaten by a shark (dying a slow painful death) the shark is not at fault.
If a guy gets killed by a bull in the 'Running of the Bulls' in Spain, it is no fault of the animal.
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The reason that the human has that 'right' is because torture produces agony, which is a negative emotive response (I submit that it is for this reason in combination with the species in and of itself). Given a dog can also experience agony, what exactly prevents the 'right' (of not being tortured by a human) from being applied to the dog? The answer is nothing.

Some will argue that the 'right' is not derived from the ability to experience agony (in combination with species). I will debunk those arguments here:

Why the 'right' is not present due to the 'morality'.
1. Because even humans void of morality retain their rights. (Mentally retarded, sociopaths etc..)
2. Because lack of morality does not preclude the ability to experience agony.

Why the 'right' is not present because it was put there by god.
Maybe it was put there by god, however, given the human was granted that 'right' by god, why can I not then claim that the dog was also granted that 'right' by god. There is certainly no evidence the 'right' was, in fact, given to the human and not to the dog.

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WARNING: With respect, if you choose to throw the Bible, Koran, Torah or whatever at me, then all logic gets thrown out the window.
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Having established the above as a universal philosophy, let me expand and consider domesticated animals:

The case of domesticated animals is a specific case within the universal philosophy. Domesticated animals differ from others in that they only exist as a result of human activity. They have lost all ability to compete in the wild because they have been selectively bred for particular characteristics, while neglecting others that were essential for their survival in the wild.

I submit that, because of this, humans are responsible for their welfare in all situations, including their interactions with other domesticated animals and wild animals.

This is in contrast to a wild animal, where the rights only apply in their interaction with humans, as I have established previously. Although it could also be argued, that, in some cases, we are wholly responsible for wild animals also. For example, when humans have interfered with their habitat. That argument is beyond the scope of what I am presenting, so I will not continue any further.
 
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WARNING: With respect, if you choose to throw the Bible, Koran, Torah or whatever at me, then all logic gets thrown out the window.
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I love this. The religious think that they are so special, that they are not animals and have not evolved like every other species on the planet. This is why they so easily torture and murder. This is why they are denying the video's authenticity, because they don't know how puppies work (probably have never interacted with a puppy, kind of like gay people)
 
I love this. The religious think that they are so special, that they are not animals and have not evolved like every other species on the planet. This is why they so easily torture and murder. This is why they are denying the video's authenticity, because they don't know how puppies work (probably have never interacted with a puppy, kind of like gay people)

Tdcci, don't you have anything better to do than go around finding a whole bunch of threads to just bash Christians?

Also, like you always do, you're lumping all Christians together and automatically stating what they believe, which you don't have any authority to do (and nor do I). Your attacks that they believe in murder, in particular is really puzzling....and your statement that they have never interacted with a puppy is just ludicrous.

I reject the idea that we evolved, and therefore, I reject the idea that animals have equal rights with us...that said, it's one of those few things that are a "grey area" for me, as I don't want to see people needlessly harming animals...but I won't want to see the animals getting treated better than us (and in some cases, sadly, animals have taken precedence over a human).

Also, as for the Bible, an animals:

Proverbs 12:10 "A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel."

I hardly think the condones harming your animals for no apparent reason.
 
So you are happy to torture an animal, as long as you can somehow justify it or look up some bullshit in your bible that justifies it.

No, but don't use my tax money to fund law enforcement for it unless it is someone damaging some elses animals.
 
No, but don't use my tax money to fund law enforcement for it unless it is someone damaging some elses animals.

Yeah, but your happy for your tax money to be used for human rights. My point is that you can't draw an distinction between humans and animals, other than that which is objectively observed. The problem is that people draw distinctions based on the propaganda they get whilst living in their religious box.
 
Yeah, but your happy for your tax money to be used for human rights. My point is that you can't draw an distinction between humans and animals, other than that which is objectively observed. The problem is that people draw distinctions based on the propaganda they get whilst living in their religious box.

your statement that there is not and one cannot draw a distinction between animals and humans is and of itself an opinion, through and through..

Not everyone draws their opinions from propaganda they get from living within their "religious box"....if you use that argument, someone could just as easily argue that you're just believe propaganda from living in your "XYZ" Box.
 
Yeah, but your happy for your tax money to be used for human rights. My point is that you can't draw an distinction between humans and animals, other than that which is objectively observed. The problem is that people draw distinctions based on the propaganda they get whilst living in their religious box.

i agree with you that religion is what people use to elevate humanity abover other forms of life.

but at the same time, lets extend ur logic. If there is NO difference between us and animals, than by that standard plants would have rights too. If i grinded a flower under my boot in anger i could be charged with plant creulty.

So, while i believe we are simply another species and are often worse than "animals", we shouldn't apply HUMAN rights to animals.
 
but at the same time, lets extend ur logic. If there is NO difference between us and animals...

Try reading my theory before commenting. I DID NOT say that there was no difference. I said that any comparison of species should be done objectively. If you are completely objective in your comparison, you would find that, for example, that Canis familiaris are likely to experience pain in the same way Homo sapiens do.
 
your statement that there is not and one cannot draw a distinction between animals and humans is and of itself an opinion, through and through..

Not everyone draws their opinions from propaganda they get from living within their "religious box"....if you use that argument, someone could just as easily argue that you're just believe propaganda from living in your "XYZ" Box.

I said distinctions CAN BE DRAWN between two different species if those distinctions are based on objective, agnostic analysis. The distinctions which hold no weight, are those which are artificially made, for example, those you read in your religious scripture, whatever that scripture may be.
 
I said distinctions CAN BE DRAWN between two different species if those distinctions are based on objective, agnostic analysis
...

Since agnostic literally means 'without knowledge' it seems that this would be by definition a subjective analysis. I've not followed the thread but i'm guessing from your hostility towards religion and theism and your favoring of the word 'objective' that you are an Objectivist. I think we have some common ground on Liberty and capitalism but we're going to have to agree to disagree on a lot of other stuff.
 
At age 56 years, my current all encompassing theory of living is that everything involves drawing a line. That means making a judgment call. We might say, "I will back up as much as possible, but beyond this point I will go no further." Some would abrogate this responsibility by putting it off on someone else such as government or pastor or wiser sibling, etc. Under the theory of optimum liberty for all, each of us must decide all issues that involve us individually. As a society we must have a mechanism to do the same thing on a grand scale. My idea is that everything, absolutely everything, eventually can be "boiled down" to, "Where do you draw the line?" You can then go into mechanisms to define/determine/choose/etc. the line. Individual's vs society's lines. etc. But it always comes back to drawing a line somewhere and somehow. The idea seems to fit with A. Lincoln's statement, "My liberty ends where yours starts". (That may not be an exact quote).
Soooooo, where does your right to protect another human being end and my right to revenge begin? Or where does your right to defend an innocent non-human animal end and my right to eat begin? I suggest we can state all disagreements in that format (or reduce them into that format) and thereby obtain a new view on the problem and its potential solutions.
OK. Have at my idea. Or ignore me. I just feel so much better for having written it for others to view. Thanks for listening.
 
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