Actress Michelle Rodriguez (Avatar, Fast & Furious, Machete) At Los Angeles ZDay Event

[ClayTrainor]

And what did Marx offer?

The theory of communism which may be summed up in one sentence. Abolish all private property.

 

[Xavi1990]

So what is TVP then? Is it just like some club of people that want to make awesome tech?

Go through my posts. I already stated what I believe it to be. I also stated my apprehension about it.

An abbreviated explanation of what it is would be: A technological management of the earths resources to better the human race. End tedious labour. Improve food production. Improve transport. Etc, etc.

I can give you good links of Fresco if you want? All of the questions about Marxism are answered.

 

[Xavi1990]

The theory of communism which may be summed up in one sentence. Abolish all private property.

But what did Marx offer? C'mon man, what did Marx offer as an alternative? So far, you won't answer what he offered compared to what Fresco is offering. You have to answer what Fresco is offering. Marx wanted to abolish all private property. Then centralization, blah, blah blah. What is Fresco offering?

"And be it as on earth as it is in heaven" As much as I admire Ron Paul, I don't think people not getting any help from people or a higher power(government) is an idea of heaven.

 

[silverhandorder]

The links are not necessary.

My question is why is the money then such a problem? If anything money would aid your goals.

 

[Xavi1990]

The links are not necessary.

My question is why is the money then such a problem? If anything money would aid your goals.

I'm not sure I understand your question?

Regarding money. I love it. Who doesn't? The free market system is responsible for all the good we have, but most of the bad as well. Particularly 20th century history - read Sutton's books.

I just think that the VP has alternative to go further than the free market system.

 

[ClayTrainor]

But what did Marx offer? C'mon man, what did Marx offer as an alternative?

Communism. Central Planning. The Abolishment of Private Property.

So far, you won't answer what he offered compared to what Fresco is offering. You have to answer what Fresco is offering. Marx wanted to abolish all private property. Then centralization, blah, blah blah. What is Fresco offering?

I'm sure the plans outlined in the communist manifest and the plans in the VP have some notable differences, however, they appear to be rooted in a very similar principle in regards to property rights.

My point is to compare the core principles, not the plan to achieve them.

"The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all private property." - Karl Marx

 

[silverhandorder]

I'm not sure I understand your question?

Regarding money. I love it. Who doesn't? The free market system is responsible for all the good we have, but most of the bad as well. Particularly 20th century history - read Sutton's books.

I just think that the VP has alternative to go further than the free market system.

Well why is money something that must go away? I for example also like using money and unless someone offers me an alternative that can satisfy me better I would be reluctant to just give up money.

 

[Xavi1990]

Communism. Central Planning. The Abolishment of Private Property.



I'm sure the plans outlined in the communist manifest and the plans in the VP have some notable differences, however, they appear to be rooted in a very similar principle in regards to property rights.

My point is to compare the core principles, not the plan to achieve them.

"The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all private property." - Karl Marx

Yes, I am understand what you are saying. But its the alternative that the VP is offering that is the key point. Hence, it's the antithesis to Marxism.

 

[silverhandorder]

What will TVP do about a portion of society that will not join it?

 

[ClayTrainor]

I just think that the VP has alternative to go further than the free market system.

Freedom exists where force and coercion do not. Markets exist where people are exchanging resources and ideas with one another.

Free markets exist where people are exchanging resources and ideas with one another, without the use of force or coercion.

To oppose free-markets is to suggest the use of coercion and force against innocent people.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Yes, I am understand what you are saying. But its the alternative that the VP is offering that is the key point.

The plans to abolish private property are different, but the principle of getting rid of private property is the same. Is this a fair thing to say?

Hence, it's the antithesis to Marxism.

The antithesis to communism, is private property / Capitalism, according to Marx. I'm pretty sure the VP is not in favor of these things.

 

[Xavi1990]

Well why is money something that must go away? I for example also like using money and unless someone offers me an alternative that can satisfy me better I would be reluctant to just give up money.

Exactly, I agree man. I'm the same. I'm not vehemently supporting the VP. I just think the technology should be used first. By why isn't the technology that is available made readily available? Because of the free market and competition, oil companies, corporation, etc would loose billions and billions if we had real renewable energy. I'm not talking about windmills here.

Look at Fresco's interview in 1974 with Larry King for a key understanding of technology that is available. It's ineffable.

The reason people who advocate a system without money because money is the problem. The scarcity that exist and with a free market system leads to corruption, elites, etc. Same goes for Socialism, it always ends up in elites, power struggles, oligarchies and on and on.

But i love the way people who say a return to the free market and an end of the fed will fix everything. They call the VP a Utopian dream yet harp on about their precious free market as if it will fix everything. Not to mention the 15 or so recessions America had before 1913.

 

[Xavi1990]

The plans to abolish private property are different, but the principle of getting rid of private property is the same. Is this a fair thing to say?



The antithesis to communism, is private property / Capitalism, according to Marx. I'm pretty sure the VP is not in favor of these things.

Haha, we're really going to do this all day, are we? Haha.

Well, OK. To you, it's Marxism. To me, it's different. But I get your point.

I'm just a big fan of the VP and Fresco. As I said, I have my own trepidations about the VP though.

 

[LiveFree79]

The free market is the scientific method in capitalism. However, government intervention has corrupted it by subsidizing inefficiency in the name of "what's good for us" rather than letting the consumer individually decide what's best for them.

BUT THIS IS MY BIGGEST GRIPE WITH PEOPLE THAT SAY EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAY! The American consumer is the BIGGEST MORON on the planet in many ways. I mean if we left our country and our economy up to the average consumer we'd be......well in the exact mess that we are in. That is the biggest gripe I have when people discuss economics. Look at all the stupid shit people buy and spend their money on. The consumer is at times a mindless drone awash in materialism. Most of the time they dont know what's good for them. But I guess everyone should have the right to be free and make stupid decisions. But more so now than ever as the world and planet gets more crowded those stupid decisions are affecting those of us who make smarter more responsible decisions.

Look at all the stupid shit Americans spend their money on.....

 

[LiveFree79]

Also Michelle Rodriguez is just another hot ass Hollywood celebrity that will spoonfeed whatever is cool, hip and different. That's how these Hollywood idiots are. I'm not saying she's an idiot but come on. You honestly expect someone that is surrounded by hollywood most of her life and what hollywood stands for to "get it".

 

[LiveFree79]

America needs to return to community power and local power. Power to own land, grow your own food, rely on yourselves and your neighbors and your community! America used to be a country of self sustaining communities. The Venus Project is bullshit. Mankind and society will never change unless we go back to owning land, providing for ourselves, and our communities. Otherwise government regardless of a "free" market will always be controlled and corrupted. People in essence need more control and power over their own lives. The Native Americans that roamed North America were some of the most free people that ever lived economcially speaking. They didn't need money. They provided for their tribe and relied on nature and their own two hands. They traded. That's what society and America needs............not some fucking pie in the sky venus project and you're right ending the fed and having a free market means dick diddily either unless people own land and can provide for themselves on a local community wide scale. America is too big and too much power is cocentrated in the hands of a few. America flourished because of it's agrarian roots community roots.

 

[silverhandorder]

@LiveFree

I don't think anyone should care about the consumer. If you don't think they are smart enough well they are only hurting them selves. The point of who you quoted was the bad that is done in the name of protecting consumers and not some type of statement that consumers know best.

@Xavi

As long as we can agree that neither one of us will try to use force to acquire resources from another I can work with you. Obviously we disagree about the bad effects of free market. Maybe some of that can be remedied through debate (stick around we have quote a bit of liberal posters).

 

[ClayTrainor]

BUT THIS IS MY BIGGEST GRIPE WITH PEOPLE THAT SAY EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAY! The American consumer is the BIGGEST MORON on the planet in many ways. I mean if we left our country and our economy up to the average consumer we'd be......well in the exact mess that we are in. That is the biggest gripe I have when people discuss economics. Look at all the stupid shit people buy and spend their money on. The consumer is at times a mindless drone awash in materialism. Most of the time they dont know what's good for them. But I guess everyone should have the right to be free and make stupid decisions. But more so now than ever as the world and planet gets more crowded those stupid decisions are affecting those of us who make smarter more responsible decisions.

Look at all the stupid shit Americans spend their money on.....

Look at how far some of the consumer products have come in such a short period of time. They are constantly getting better and cheaper, despite inflation.

TV's, computers, cell phones, all information technology, Musical instruments, etc.

Many of these products and technologies have changed the world for the better, and have the potential to change the world for the better, if we can keep making them cheaper and better so more people can have them. Without consumers having the ability to make free choices in the market, these things will surely get more expensive and worse in virtually every way due to the economic calculation problem.

 

[Xavi1990]

@LiveFree

I don't think anyone should care about the consumer. If you don't think they are smart enough well they are only hurting them selves. The point of who you quoted was the bad that is done in the name of protecting consumers and not some type of statement that consumers know best.

@Xavi

As long as we can agree that neither one of us will try to use force to acquire resources from another I can work with you. Obviously we disagree about the bad effects of free market. Maybe some of that can be remedied through debate (stick around we have quote a bit of liberal posters).

If you were insinuating that I'm a Liberal, I'm far from it. In this system, I'd be an anarcho capitalist......... but I do have a soft spot for free health care, ha(waiting to be derided for the contradiction).

 

[ClayTrainor]

If you were insinuating that I'm a Liberal, I'm far from it. In this system, I'd be an anarcho capitalist......... but I do have a soft spot for free health care, ha(waiting to be derided for the contradiction).

I'm just amused that you're aware of it, and continue to hold it.