"And be it as on earth as it is in heaven." Your point?
Yes, Marx did say that and in the Venus Project there would be no private property. But the alternative offered by the Venus Project is the antithesis of Marxism.
If you have followed Fresco, you will know he joined the communist party when he was 16 but was quickly kicked out because he asked questions such as: How will Communism augment the Agricultural yield? How will communism house everyone? How will communism stop corruption? And on and on and on.
What Marx offered compared to what Fresco is offering is wholly different. Also, Marxism claims to be a Utopia. Fresco says no such thing as that.
Fresco has thoroughly went through all the notions that it is Communism, or Brave New World and all the other follies that are put forward to deride the Venus Project. I have my own trepidations about the Venus Project such as age of consent, abortion, who decides, etc. But I'd rather live in the Venus Project then this monetary system.
You'll also see my aversions towards Monetary Socialism by looking at my signature.
I look forward to living within a Resource Based Economy as well.
Therefore, the VP is a flavor of marxism, according to marx's opinion, not mine.
Marxists that Fresco communicated with in the past expelled him from their meetings for asking to create technical sectors and asking how to avoid corruption. Their reason for expelling him? He was deviating from Marx. Marxists declared Fresco to be too deviant to be welcome amongst them.
So you going to make a competing system with the resources you have? Ok gl.
@Xavi
Just because he asked difficult questions of communism does not mean what he is proposing is not communism. To put it bluntly he wants to do socialism the "right" way. Unfortunately for him that is an impossible task.
For a long time folks also believed it to be impossible to build a flying machine. Some folks today believe it to be impossible to build a global society without money and not resemble what they consider to be a socialist or communist nation.
At one time, it was impossible to build a flying machine. The reason why is because the technical know-how wasn't yet developed using the scientific method.
The antithesis to marxism is private property, according to marx.
"The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all private property." - Karl Marx
Just because one man said that the antithesis to his ideas is private property, doesn't mean that everyone else for centuries to come who doesn't adhere to the concept of private property is living up to that man's ideas and all their ideas must be labelled with that man's name with the ism suffix attached.
Yes, government, labor, money, police, armies, elites etc. That's all in the Venus Project.
What next? Kucinich is the same as Hitler because he's vegetarian?
Repeated surface associations to unpopular historical characters are transparent ad hominems.
And what did Marx offer?
"according to marx" Yes, exactly. According to a man who actually thought that workers would unite and take over the world.
Also a man who lived in a society where technological unemployment was not a threat to survival.
So what is TVP then? Is it just like some club of people that want to make awesome tech?
TVP offers a direction towards a better society by applying the scientific method to social concern and global resource management. Applying technology that was designed to free us from labor is simply a means to attain those objectives.
Nowhere did I refer to money, police, armies or elites. The communist manifest is just Marx's plan to achieve communism, however I am talking about the core principle of communism, as it was according to marx. Allow me to remind you...
"The theory of Communism may be
summed up in one sentence: Abolish all private property." - Karl Marx
Was the Hitlers political philosophy of Nazism based on vegeterianism?
Did hitler ever say something like...
"The philosophy of nazism may be summed up in one sentence, no one can eat meat!"
No, he didn't, because vegetarianism had nothing to do with Hitlers political philosophy which led to crimes against humanity. So it's not a good comparison.
You'll notice that as many times as Marx will be quoted here, folks never quote Kennedy.
The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty, and all forms of human life.
John F. Kennedy
Read more:
http://www.brainyquote.com/words/ab/abolish126195.html#ixzz1H62cCLrE
Moving beyond all forms of human poverty can't happen when following free market utopian doctrine, but all human life can be eliminated by folks who lay claim to resources as property they want to defend.
The theory of communism which may be summed up in one sentence. Abolish all private property.
Beyond politics, poverty, and war is the headline for The Venus Project, and that's not even a complete sentence.
Go through my posts. I already stated what I believe it to be. I also stated my apprehension about it.
An abbreviated explanation of what it is would be: A technological management of the earths resources to better the human race. End tedious labour. Improve food production. Improve transport. Etc, etc.
I can give you good links of Fresco if you want? All of the questions about Marxism are answered.
It's always good to include a link to a video of Fresco in a post on this thread.
But what did Marx offer? C'mon man, what did Marx offer as an alternative? So far, you won't answer what he offered compared to what Fresco is offering. You have to answer what Fresco is offering. Marx wanted to abolish all private property. Then centralization, blah, blah blah. What is Fresco offering?
"And be it as on earth as it is in heaven" As much as I admire Ron Paul, I don't think people not getting any help from people or a higher power(government) is an idea of heaven.
Folks prefer to discuss that they're familiar with. That is why even though The Venus Project is what Fresco is offering, folks will talk about Marx because of surface associations. The day will come when even establishment politicians won't be able to make this side step without the intent to dodge being obvious.
The links are not necessary.
My question is why is the money then such a problem? If anything money would aid your goals.
I'm not sure I understand your question?
Regarding money. I love it. Who doesn't? The free market system is responsible for all the good we have, but most of the bad as well. Particularly 20th century history - read Sutton's books.
I just think that the VP has alternative to go further than the free market system.
Communism. Central Planning. The Abolishment of Private Property.
I'm sure the plans outlined in the communist manifest and the plans in the VP have some notable differences, however, they appear to be rooted in a very similar principle in regards to property rights.
My point is to compare the core principles, not the plan to achieve them.
"The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all private property." - Karl Marx
Finite planet. Natural law. Scientific method. These are the core principles of the Resource Based Economy.
Well why is money something that must go away? I for example also like using money and unless someone offers me an alternative that can satisfy me better I would be reluctant to just give up money.
Lots of folks are unwilling to give up the most corrupting medium of the world.
Yes, I am understand what you are saying. But its the alternative that the VP is offering that is the key point. Hence, it's the antithesis to Marxism.
Marx valued the rule of labor. Fresco values freeing man from labor. Quite antithetical indeed.
What will TVP do about a portion of society that will not join it?
That's what TZM is for. It's the activist arm of TVP, intent on increasing demand for the Resource Based Economy through nonviolent communication.
Freedom exists where force and coercion do not. Markets exist where people are exchanging resources and ideas with one another.
Free markets exist where people are exchanging resources and ideas with one another, without the use of force or coercion.
To oppose free-markets is to suggest the use of coercion and force against innocent people.
Markets exist to restrict access to resources that have been claimed as property. It forces folks to engage in trade to meet their survival needs. There are only two methods of survival in a market system: prostitution and parasitism.
Your level of freedom in a market system is the level of your purchasing power. The only freedom anybody has is natural law. Any societies that allow more freedom than others only does so because of the structure of those societies.
The plans to abolish private property are different, but the principle of getting rid of private property is the same. Is this a fair thing to say?
The antithesis to communism, is private property / Capitalism, according to Marx. I'm pretty sure the VP is not in favor of these things.
The plan to manage the earth's resources by applying the scientific method to social concern is antithetical to both the laborer's utopia (communism) and the trader's utopia (capitalism).
Exactly, I agree man. I'm the same. I'm not vehemently supporting the VP. I just think the technology should be used first. By why isn't the technology that is available made readily available? Because of the free market and competition, oil companies, corporation, etc would loose billions and billions if we had real renewable energy. I'm not talking about windmills here.
Look at Fresco's interview in 1974 with Larry King for a key understanding of technology that is available. It's ineffable.
The reason people who advocate a system without money because money is the problem. The scarcity that exist and with a free market system leads to corruption, elites, etc. Same goes for Socialism, it always ends up in elites, power struggles, oligarchies and on and on.
But i love the way people who say a return to the free market and an end of the fed will fix everything. They call the VP a Utopian dream yet harp on about their precious free market as if it will fix everything. Not to mention the 15 or so recessions America had before 1913.
Money, designed for convenience, developed into corruption.
Haha, we're really going to do this all day, are we? Haha.
Well, OK. To you, it's Marxism. To me, it's different. But I get your point.
I'm just a big fan of the VP and Fresco. As I said, I have my own trepidations about the VP though.
Zeitgeist Moving Forward was the film that convinced me that The Zeitgeist Movement walks the walk and not just talks the talk as far as turning the technically feasible designs of The Venus Project into an in-demand social structure. As I said before in my "Why I Advocate TZM" video, it means a lot to me to be a part of it.
BUT THIS IS MY BIGGEST GRIPE WITH PEOPLE THAT SAY EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAY! The American consumer is the BIGGEST MORON on the planet in many ways. I mean if we left our country and our economy up to the average consumer we'd be......well in the exact mess that we are in. That is the biggest gripe I have when people discuss economics. Look at all the stupid shit people buy and spend their money on. The consumer is at times a mindless drone awash in materialism. Most of the time they dont know what's good for them. But I guess everyone should have the right to be free and make stupid decisions. But more so now than ever as the world and planet gets more crowded those stupid decisions are affecting those of us who make smarter more responsible decisions.
Look at all the stupid shit Americans spend their money on.....
Also Michelle Rodriguez is just another hot ass Hollywood celebrity that will spoonfeed whatever is cool, hip and different. That's how these Hollywood idiots are. I'm not saying she's an idiot but come on. You honestly expect someone that is surrounded by hollywood most of her life and what hollywood stands for to "get it".
As far as anyone "getting it" goes, all of our perceptions are based on the information we receive from our cultural environment, regardless of what part of the world you're from or your terms of employment.
America needs to return to community power and local power. Power to own land, grow your own food, rely on yourselves and your neighbors and your community! America used to be a country of self sustaining communities. The Venus Project is bullshit. Mankind and society will never change unless we go back to owning land, providing for ourselves, and our communities. Otherwise government regardless of a "free" market will always be controlled and corrupted. People in essence need more control and power over their own lives. The Native Americans that roamed North America were some of the most free people that ever lived economcially speaking. They didn't need money. They provided for their tribe and relied on nature and their own two hands. They traded. That's what society and America needs............not some fucking pie in the sky venus project and you're right ending the fed and having a free market means dick diddily either unless people own land and can provide for themselves on a local community wide scale. America is too big and too much power is cocentrated in the hands of a few. America flourished because of it's agrarian roots community roots.
Applying the scientific method to global resource management and social concern is antithetical to an agrarian utopia (tribalism).
@LiveFree
I don't think anyone should care about the consumer. If you don't think they are smart enough well they are only hurting them selves. The point of who you quoted was the bad that is done in the name of protecting consumers and not some type of statement that consumers know best.
@Xavi
As long as we can agree that neither one of us will try to use force to acquire resources from another I can work with you. Obviously we disagree about the bad effects of free market. Maybe some of that can be remedied through debate (stick around we have quote a bit of liberal posters).
Advertisers purposely deceive consumers to maximize profit.
Look at how far some of the consumer products have come in such a short period of time. They are constantly getting better and cheaper, despite inflation.
TV's, computers, cell phones, all information technology, Musical instruments, etc.
Many of these products and technologies have changed the world for the better, and have the potential to change the world for the better, if we can keep making them cheaper and better so more people can have them. Without consumers having the ability to make free choices in the market, these things will surely get more expensive and worse in virtually every way due to the economic calculation problem.
Economic calculations can be better done without money. The real wealth of any nation is not its money. Money, designed for convenience, developed into corruption.
If you were insinuating that I'm a Liberal, I'm far from it. In this system, I'd be an anarcho capitalist......... but I do have a soft spot for free health care, ha(waiting to be derided for the contradiction).
Politics and political labels as we know them today will be phased out.
I'm just amused that you're aware of it, and continue to hold it.
The process of self-assessing behavioral patterns and readjusting can be quite amusing indeed.
Sorry you used some arguments I usually hear from liberals. Do you read mises.org by any chance? Lately they had a good series of lectures that they published that addresses the idea that we had more panics before FED stepped in.
I'm sure free market utopian doctrine will expand further into revisionist history so long as it's profitable to do so.
. Good thing that people like Xavi exist to clean up your mess.
