Abortion

[brandon]

I have alot of really retarded democrat friends. They have been driving me insane with thier constant attacks on ron paul. The only point against him they really make is that he supports overturning Roe v Wade. It seems like they put Roe V Wade on a much higher level of importance then our own consitution. These people are driving me insane. Here is a blog post I recently made to try and explain the situation to them. Let me know if I am forgetting anything...

Abortion

It is starting to seem like everyone I know is obsessed with abortion.



I tell people about Ron Paul, and they come back with "No I cant support him because he wants to overturn Roe V Wade". I try to explain that it should be overturned because the federal government does not have power to issue a ruling like that. I try to explain that abortions would still be legal in pennsylvania even if Roe v Wade was overturned....people dont care. They automatically hate him because they heard he wants to overturn Roe v Wade.

I understand how some people are extremely zealous pro-lifers. This is thier religous belief and they think they are on a mission from god to stop abortions. Crazy? Yes....but it is still understandable. They think abortion is murder so they are trying to stop murder of the innocent. Not that crazy when you really think about it.

What I dont understand at all is how people become so passionatly pro-choice. These are people who have never studied birth, are not doctors, yet they are 100% convinced that making sure everyone in the world can have abortions is a top priority. It is like these people are planning to have 50 abortions in the future.

We live in a country where legislation like the "patriot" act is routinely passed, we are in a never ending occupation of iraq and about to goto war with Iran. Our president talks about World War 3 like it is unavoidable. We are being taxed by an illegal institution (The federal reserve) at much higher rates then we were prior to the American revolution. We have an extremely bloated budget, are trillions in debt, and the value of the dollar is continuosly falling. We have secret torture camps all around the world, and people can be indefinitly detained at these places without charges. Not to mention the insanely expensive "war on drugs". Abuses of civil liberties are completely out of control and getting worse by the day.

I tell people I know a man named Ron Paul who will solve all of these things And they say, "Oh he wants to overturn Roe v Wade, i cant vote for him". Ahhh! It makes me want to pull my hair out.

I am pro-choice. I dont think anyone knows "when life begins", so I am pro-choice. We dont have enough information to say it is murder. I certainly dont think it is murder in the first few months. Near the end of the pregnancy it gets much more complicated. The way our current laws are, a women could have an abortion a day before she is scheduled to deliver her baby and face no repercussions. If the next day, after she gave birth, she killed her baby, she would goto jail for life. That doesn't really make sence to me.

So supporting Roe v Wade is supporting that people far away, who believe abortion is murder, can still have abortions without leaving thier state. It makes no freaking sence to me how people get all fired up and passionate about supporting Roe v Wade.

So can someone give me some input about why they so strongly support Roe V Wade? And is this really enough to convince you not to vote for OB/GYN Ron Paul?

 

[tfelice]

I'm pro-life, but I'll give you the logic as I see it.

"Roe v Wade = pro-choice = being open minded". That's the newspeak of it all.

How many times have you heard someone say "well I am personally against abortions, but I support Roe v Wade". Come to think of it how many times have you heard someone say "I for as many abortions as possible".

Anyway. Roe v Wade has been around for 34 years which means that anyone 50 or younger has lived with it for their entire adult lives. I doubt many at all have ever read the case law on it, but they support it because of the way it has been pounded into people's heads for all of their lives, and opposing it would make them intolerant of other's views - and you know we can't be intolerant, it's the carnal sin of the PC culture.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[Original_Intent]

I am pro-choice. I dont think anyone knows "when life begins", so I am pro-choice.

This is exactly why I am pro-life. If we are going to err, we had better do so on the side of possibly not murdering someone.

What is funny is that many of the pro-choice people argue AGAINST capital punishment because we might accidentally "Kill an innocent person"

I bet you not one person on death row, even if they didn't commit the crime they are in jail for, is anywhere near as innocent as an unborn child.

 

[TVMH]

You might point them to RP's interview with Adam Curry.

RP stated very clearly, I believe, that pregnancy cannot be proven in the first few days after intercourse, so taking a pill like RU-486 that prevents a pregnancy from going further may or may not be "murder"...but by overturning Roe v. Wade, this distinction would be left to the several states.

One would think that "pro-choice" people would WANT this authority/power of distinction decentralized (i.e., MORE choice) since recent history has shown that control over the federal government fluctuates between those with "conservative" and "liberal" ideologies.

But, then again, that assumes that people are thinking logically and rationally.

 

[brandon]

I'm pro-life, but I'll give you the logic as I see it.

"Roe v Wade = pro-choice = being open minded". That's the newspeak of it all.

How many times have you heard someone say "well I am personally against abortions, but I support Roe v Wade". Come to think of it how many times have you heard someone say "I for as many abortions as possible".

Anyway. Roe v Wade has been around for 34 years which means that anyone 50 or younger has lived with it for their entire adult lives. I doubt many at all have ever read the case law on it, but they support it because of the way it has been pounded into people's heads for all of their lives, and opposing it would make them intolerant of other's views - and you know we can't be intolerant, it's the carnal sin of the PC culture.

That's my 2 cents.

Yea makes sence....I'm so sick of this PC bullshit.

 

[kaleidoscope eyes]

well, when first introduced to RP by my husband a couple months ago, I agreed with everything BUT I saw the thing about overturning RvW. I was like WHOA! no way. But, I didn't understand fully, it was a pure knee jerk reaction, i thought it was like a complete absolute ban on abortion. I was directed to come back and take a closer look and read more carefully RP's postition. When I clearly understood that states should have this right to allow, or not allow abortion, I was like, I'm cool with that, now I have no problem backing RP 100%. I guess I'm pro-choice, I know I couldn't get an abortion myself, or recommend it to anyone else, BUT, i would still like to see a SAFE avenue for women who are absolutely going to have one, no matter what any person or law tells them, ya know?
I consider myself reasonable, that's why I have no problem with the RvW issue anymore, if you are dealing with stubborn, unreasonable types, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[filmmaker58]

I think that the bottom line of this question is, that it's a really hard question, and there is no right answer for every situation, and thus, it cannot, and should not be made at a national level. I used to be pro-choice, and my reasoning was a lot of "big picture" things. Overpopulation, crime rates (theoretically by unwanted children who were raised poorly) and a woman's right for a chance to make the biggest decision of her life, to be a mother. but on the other side, you never know where the next Einstien is going to come from. Some of the greatest people I know were "unplanned" babies (I'm one too) and those kids deserve a chance. I'm on the fence about it, but what I do know is that the decision should not be made at the federal level.

 

[rs3515]

Having talked with quite a few women about this, here's what I've learned:

1. Patriot Act, Iraq War and everything else happening in regards to the world are not as personal as abortion. For most women, all those other things are very nebulous, but abortion is direct and clear, whether for them or if they are thinking about another woman.
2. Even if Ron Paul wants to allow for discussion at the state level, and he's ok with the morning after pill, it is a step backward from those who are pro-choice. The question is, why would they concede anything to those who are pro-life when they have already won the battle and there is no upside for them?
3. More than one woman I've talked to is fearful that their state will be the one that bans abortion. The worry is midnight runs across the state line or using unsafe clinics ... which puts them back to where things were in the 1960s.

I've thought about this long and hard, and I'm not really sure there is an answer to this if a pro-choice person is staunchly opposed to any compromise.

 

[Man from La Mancha]

There is one simple flaw in the pro choice argument when they say a woman has the right to do what she wants with her body. The baby(fetus) is a different DNA structure than hers and therefore is not part of her body but just dependent on it. The DNA is a combination of the mother and father thus making it a separate "individual"

.

 

[kylejack]

I'm not crazy about Ron Paul's position, and I don't look forward to back alley abortions in states that ban it.

 

[rs3515]

The baby(fetus) is a different DNA structure than hers and therefore is not part of her body but just dependent on it. The DNA is a combination of the mother and father thus making it a separate "individual".

Um yeah ... I'd pay to see you have *that* discussion with a strong pro-choice person face-to-face.

 

[Man from La Mancha]

I'm not crazy about Ron Paul's position, and I don't look forward to back alley abortions in states that ban it.

Hello has anybody heard of modern transportation? Many flights can be had to nearby cities for less than $100 round trip and one can be sure that like Las Vegas Casinos the big abortion clinics will include that in their price to get one there. Or by bus ,car, train.

 

[rs3515]

Hello has anybody heard of modern transportation? Many flights can be had to nearby cities for less than $100 round trip and one can be sure that like Las Vegas Casinos the big abortion clinics will include that in their price to get one there. Or by bus ,car, train.

Um, tell that to a 14 year old who's scared and doesn't want her parents to know what's going on. Many young girls died that way.

 

[kylejack]

Hello has anybody heard of modern transportation? Many flights can be had to nearby cities for less than $100 round trip and one can be sure that like Las Vegas Casinos the big abortion clinics will include that in their price to get one there. Or by bus ,car, train.

States can also pass laws making it illegal to transport a person across state lines for an abortion. Legislators already tried to do this for minors on the federal level.

 

[Zarxrax]

Here is an argument for a woman who doesn't see why she should concede anything on RvW. Perhaps it's not the strongest argument, but perhaps it could get through to some.

While it's at the federal level, the entire country is subject to either legalized abortions or banned abortions. Right now, the whole country has legalized abortions, so it's very easy to go with the kneejerk response and say we should keep things how they are.

However, the conservatives and religious in this country have been working very hard for a LONG time to get abortion banned. Don't you think that given enough time, they might succeed? What will these women do when abortion is banned throughout the entire country? Do they think they might support leaving the issue to the states then?

It's hard to compromise when you hold the upper hand, but no one keeps the upper hand forever.

 

[Man from La Mancha]

States can also pass laws making it illegal to transport a person across state lines for an abortion. Legislators already tried to do this for minors on the federal level.

The right to travel is a born right, maybe they couldn't do it because they can't

Um, tell that to a 14 year old who's scared and doesn't want her parents to know what's going on. Many young girls died that way.

Does that mean now in every state a 14 yr old can get an abortion without parental consult?

.

 

[Man from La Mancha]

It's hard to compromise when you hold the upper hand, but no one keeps the upper hand forever.

Thats impossible just too many differences in each state. We have 43 states allowing concealed gun carry yet 7 don't allow it. We'll have lots of people like you to see it won't be done.

.

 

[kylejack]

The right to travel is a born right, maybe they couldn't do it because they can't

States can and do pass laws against natural rights. They could pass a law against this.

 

[Hope]

By Man of La Mancha's logic, fetus in fetu would not legally be allowed to be cut out from human beings. Whether it's a fetus in fetu or a tumor or a zygote, if it's in my body then I believe I have every right to have it removed.

We all know that the South would ban abortion if it could. If you get raped in Florida, you're going to have to pay around $500 to get to the nearest abortion clinic, if it's even possible they'll let you in because of state laws that would likely be passed.

I like the idea of federalism, but I'm not sold on the idea that states should be allowed to pass whatever totalitarian laws they want.

 

[rs3515]

It's hard to compromise when you hold the upper hand, but no one keeps the upper hand forever.

I do agree with you, but also think there are many people who are strongly entrenched about this. Their viewpoint seems to be, "give them an inch and they'll take a mile". I also understand why they think this way, because there are plenty of pro-lifers that would try to do just that.