A Step-by-Step, Logical, A Priori Refutation of Minarchism and 'Limited Government'. READ.

Is 'limited government' a unicorn?


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The larger question here ClayTrainor is property ownership rights ... and I want you to answer this question. Let's say that I want to buy five acres of land to build a house and plant a garden. Under a limited government, that plot would be registered at the county in the public records so that everyone knows who owns it and where the boundaries are. In a stateless society how could that be done?

Read Rothbard. Or the Tannehills.

Does the government issue title to the grassy hillside for general admission concerts? No, it's first come, first served, and you have to protect "title" yourself (or through contractually bound agents).

And who's to say that the govt is ever going to reliably serve as title insurer? There are ample accounts of multiple people holding title to the same parcels, because of errors on the govt's part. And examples of the govt giving title to favored groups simply because they get to decide what title claims to recognize (like when the native tribe in an area sold to one developer, but the company-holder who gained title from a King's cartographer without doing anything to the land subsequently sold it to someone else, who was then found to have proper title, solely because it was issued by "our" predecessor govt).

You have a valid concern about how society manages property rights. But as in all situations, the govt is the last institution you want to govern these concerns.
 
I have never claimed that I am always right. I now understand. You win.

Well, It's definitely not about me or you winning anything, it's about what's true vs what's false.

Is income tax voluntary? No, it most certainly is not. I'm glad you agree. :)
 
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I have never claimed that I am always right. I now understand. You win.

This is commendable. We've all come a long way and have all supported things that we eventually understood through dialectics were incorrect. We will all probably still run into such situations.

It takes a lot to admit publicly when one is wrong - again, commendable.
 
This is commendable. We've all come a long way and have all supported things that we eventually understood through dialectics were incorrect. We will all probably still run into such situations.

It takes a lot to admit publicly when one is wrong - again, commendable.

+1 I absolutely agree.

And Travlyr, I apologize if I act a bit frustrated with you sometimes. I definitely need to work on how I handle my emotions in these discussions. That's my flaw not yours, and I apologize for it.
 
If you're an anarchist who believes in no government then you can't believe in the principle of private property rights either. The government exists for the purpose of protecting life, liberty, and private property rights.

That makes no sense. As if the government creates property and it's existence relies on on it.
 
Why is a limited government a floating abstraction? Because it must either initiate force or stop being a government. Let me present a brief proof of this.

Although I do not agree with your definition of government and think that it is epistemologically mistaken (i.e., you are not identifying its fundamental, and hence essential, characteristics), I shall accept it for the purpose of this critique. One of the major characteristics of your conception of government is that it holds a monopoly on the use of retaliatory force in a given geographical area. Now, there are only two possible kinds of monopolies: a coercive monopoly, which initiates force to keep its monopoly, or a non-coercive monopoly, which is always open to competition. In an Objectivist society, the government is not open to competition, and hence is a coercive monopoly.

The quickest way of showing why it must either initiate force or cease being a government is the following: Suppose that I were distraught with the service of a government in an Objectivist society. Suppose that I judged, being as rational as I possibly could, that I could secure the protection of my contracts and the retrieval of stolen goods at a cheaper price and with more efficiency. Suppose I either decide to set up an institution to attain these ends, or patronize one which a friend or a business colleague has established. Now, if he succeeds in setting up the agency, which provides all the services of the Objectivist government, and restricts his more efficient activities to the use of retaliation against aggressors, there are only two alternatives as far as the "government" is concerned: (a) It can use force or the threat of it against the new institution, in order to keep its monopoly status in the given territory, thus initiating the use of threat of physical force against one who has not himself initiated force. Obviously, then, if it should choose this alternative, it would have initiated force. Q.E.D. Or: (b) It can refrain from initiating force, and allow the new institution to carry on its activities without interference. If it did this, then the Objectivist "government" would become a truly marketplace institution, and not a "government" at all. There would be competing agencies of protection, defense and retaliation – in short, free market anarchism.

This is the heart of the article. The difference between a "minimal government" and tyranny is scale. The difference between market anarchy and minimal government is kind/type. "Minimal government" is not a third option, and must be either an aggressor or a market actor - which either makes it unacceptable as a minimal government for libertarians or not a government at all.

I wish this letter were a Mises Daily weekly, it cannot get enough play in the libertarian community.
 
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I have yet to read the article in its entirety, but what I have read thus far has problems in the reasoning and I will point out one of the more glaring examples.

He states that a government can be either statist or limited. Forgetting statist government for the clear evil it represents, let us look at limited forms where he asserts:

"limited government, which holds a monopoly on retaliation but does not initiate the use or threat of physical force;"

And goes on wqith:

"It is my contention that limited government is a floating abstraction which has never been concretized by anyone; that a limited government must either initiate force or cease being a government; that the very concept of limited government is an unsuccessful attempt to integrate two mutually contradictory elements: statism and voluntarism. Hence, if this can be shown, epistemological clarity and moral consistency demands the rejection of the institution of government totally, resulting in free market anarchism, or a purely voluntary society."

This ignores another possibility: a laissez faire government whose ONLY purpose is to protect the rights of its citizens. Part of that role would include investigation of charges of rights violations and to take remedial steps where called for. Such a government would have no power to stop private parties from voluntarily engaging in business transactions regardless of their nature. They would act only responsively to charges. If, for example, my property is stolen and I hire XYZ Inc. or even my burly neighbor to retrieve it, I would be well within my rights to do so.

If, on the other hand, I hired the same to retrieve property that was in fact NOT mine, which is to say I hired them to steal for me and the victim made charges to "government", the role would be to investigate and respond with force against force in the case where the charges proved true. Childs appears to wholly ignore this possibility.

As I have mentioned before, there is no fundamental advantage of private "government" over public, and infact are some notable disadvantages. In either case a subset of the population assumes and exercises certain powers as matters of office - of their roles and the underlying purposes thereof. The salient point is NOT whether the offices are formally public or private, but rather what are the powers and their associated parameters of exercise.

There is nothing in principle to stop a market anarchy from devolving into pure feudalism. I suspect that where issues arise between "factions" that are of sufficient importance to the parties in question, feudalism is precisely what would arise. E.g. one group arbitrarily identifying itself as "environmentalist" is against another group identifying itself as "industrialist" where matters of environmental pollution are in question. The former wants clean air etc. while the latter simply do not care - their focus is on production and innovation, the environment be damned. If the former feel sufficiently threatened by the actions of the latter, what do we suppose will ultimately transpire? In all likelihood, use of force - possibly violence - to make the "polluters" stop what they are doing. Likewise, the industrialists would retaliate against the environmentalists' trespass, asserting their right to act.

Who is right? Who is wrong? They are each right and wrong by their own ways of seeing the world. In such a case there are three possibilities that arise - the parties fight, possibly even murdering each other in pursuit of their mutually conflicting goals - they come to an agreement and avert disaster (unlikely where such strong beliefs are in question), or a third party mediates a solution, either siding in-toto with one party, or hammering out a compromise between them. This third party could well be a private entity, and if the disagreeing parties are amenable to such an arrangement, fine. But what if they are not and the only path they are willing to embark upon is that of open warfare - actual physical violence?

We might say that it is their right to mutually engage in such action so long as all the members are agreed that war is what they want. From a purely libertarian standpoint this is the proper way, but other problems may still arise. What if, for instance, the warring activities spill over into communities neither party to the dispute nor wishing any involvement? How are their rights protected? Do THEY have to now take up arms in defense of their own interests? We could say yes even to this, but consider the possibility for cascading warfare. But what if there were a generally recognized third party who held the authority to step in once the rights of even a single individual were violated and and whose ONLY purpose was to put an end to initiated force? If the warring spilled into another party's territory and that party asked for third party ("government") intervention, would that not be preferable to allowing violence to spread? The only thing "government" would do in this case is bring the spread of violence to an end.

The difference here lies in accountability. Even private entities hold some public accountability, which translates very directly and without modification into governance. This cannot be avoided, save to accept nihilism and the chaos it engenders in real world situations. In my world, "government" would be the last resort where serious disputes arouse between people. Their prerogatives to act would be very tightly circumscribed and any violations of the parameters of action under which its members labors would be cause for a stern and public accounting, the penalties bordering on the draconian.

Just and proper governance is eminently attainable in principle. In practice, it is another thing altogether. The problem is not governance per se, but of individuals. Until enough of us choose the path of real liberty and all that it requires of us, there is no system of governance (or government, if you prefer) that will serve us so much as marginally well.

I might also add that in practical terms there is likely to never be any such thing as "anarchy" because some form of governance will always be needed, unless we are to accept pure chaos as our way of life. In a so-called "anarchy", would people not deal with those who rape, rob, murder, and defraud? If not, then it is pure wild-west nihilism and those with the most power will enslave those without. This is observable human nature and the past several thousands of years of human history paint a truth that is not reasonably refuted. The larger a population becomes, the stronger becomes this truth.

Even tribal, anarchic cultures had rules, minimal as they may have been - which means that even those were not utterly devoid of governing elements. In the event a member commits a criminal act, even those cultures call upon one to account for his actions.

The question, then, is not whether we should have governance. In the choice between minimal, righteous, well reasoned, just governance and nihilism, I believe the great majority would opt for the former, and rightly so. The question, however, becomes one of how to establish such governance such that human freedom - proper freedom based on our equal claims to life - is not curtailed in any way. That is the $64 question and I feel it is well about time that people got off this silly bandwagon of "to have or not to have" and get back to the real world of practical solutions.

I have demonstrated to myself in the most unequivocal terms that such governance - PUBLICY ACCOUNTABLE governance - is attainable. I have also concluded that the practical challenges of attaining such governance are formidable on even the best days. The requirements of liberty are daunting and because of this, most people are not willing to do what it takes to ensure the most fundamental elements of the welfare of their own children, much less themselves, their communities, or the nation.

So again I will repeat what bears it: the question is not one of whether to have government, but how to structure, implement, and maintain it such that the absolute freedom of the individual is preserved intact as we move from one day into the next.

I think you missed the part that if a government is only there to protect life, liberty, and property and will not aggress against others that try to fill it's role then you have a voluntary society. In addition, this is not really a government anymore because it does not have the monopoly of force in a given geographical area. But if the government uses force to limit others from competing with it then, it is not longer only protecting life, liberty, and property but itself. The individuals who run the government are now protecting their own power and legitimacy. Here lies the slippery slope of the leviathan.
 
Hear hear. Without governance of some form, how is crime to be addressed? The sole alternative is nihilism - law of the jungle at a low level of organization, feudalism at the middle, and statism at the top.

Does anyone here think we have GOVERNMENT in the USA? I do not. We have a mob exercising it arbitrary and capricious power over the rest. This is most definitely nihilism at the higher/highest level of organization. Anything goes... for those in power, that is.

I am thinking that perhaps the time is upon us to start examining this distinction between actual "government" and mafia rule. "government" has gotten perhaps a bad rap in all of this - depending on how one defines the term in some of the more important specifics. In any event, I would tend to say that by definition, "government" is just. If this is so, then what we have all across this world of ours is not government, but rather something else.

Something to think about.

Then explain to me why ancient Ireland was able to have a complex stateless society for over a thousand years?
 
1. You and Childs both conflate government and the state.

Actually, I do precisely the opposite. And that is pretty much a central pillar of my point - governance does not have to be as it always has been. That it is indicates our failings as people and not the failings of governance per se.

You bring up a valid concern that market anarchy would devolve into feudalism, but your point has two flaws:
first, that historical feudal societies (like England and Japan) evolved when one state conquered several other states, and
second, that historical geographically overlapping private governments (e.g., Ireland) did not devolve into feudalism.

Two points. First, I don't know how you came to your first observation. I do not recalling or implying such a thing. If you could elaborate on this, please do so I might understand toward what you are driving.

Second, I did not say feudalism was a necessary result, but only a likely one, given the abundant examples agailable to us from the past several thousands of years of human history.

This IMO invalidates the assertion that feudalism is the inevitable result.

If I wrote "inevitable" I mistyped. As I recall I wrote "likely" or "probable".

I (and a lot of others who are sold on the idea) do not conflate the two ideas, so I'll need something more than the threat of feudalism, because it doesn't apply.

It most certainly does apply. Johnny kills Jack - maybe in self defense, maybe not. Jack's family and friends hunt Johnny and kill him. Johnny's friends and family now hunt Jack's family and friends. This is a very old story and is still common in many places. Without something to put such people in check, blood feuds such as this could grow to very large proportions. As a matter of practicality we need a means of seeing to it that such things do not occur. We also need it as a matter of principle such that those innocents who have nothing directly to do with the circumstance... maybe Jack's wife who just wants to forget about it and go on with life, can do so without worrying about taking a bullet as part of an ongoing vendetta.

Consider the Italian mob - they would butcher each other, but women and children were absolutely off limits. To kill an adverary's wife or child would earn you a night with the fish, courtesy of your own. Vicious as they were in so many respects, they had a code of ethics and they stuck by them like religion.

Now consider the Columbian mob. Cross with them and they will kill you, your siblings, parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, and every child of all of these. They are mad animals with no code of honor to speak of, pragmatism being their only principle. Killing everyone is their way of best ensuring the vendetta does not haunt them down the road.

A libertarian society might tolerate the Italian mob but could in no way abide the Columbians.


2. The threat of open physical violence to resolve disputes- How is that different from what we have now? With state sponsored violence, I can be dragged into the war involuntarily. With private actors, the violence is not only limited in scope, but where there are geographically overlapping governments, there is very little chance for conscription. Likewise, this argument falls flat, particularly when we examine that historical stateless societies were comparatively nonviolent.

My point is thet there is no guarantee that scope will be limited. It might be... it might not be.

Historical stateless societies were usually very small. Can you name a single huge society that was stateless? Aumer, Akkad, Eqypt, Babylon... and so on down the line - all STATES in that there was a ruler who did as he pleased.

3. I don't recall ever hearing or reading an argument in support of anarchy which espouses nihilism - in fact, they were are all careful to address it.

Anarchy means no ruler. If you claim to be an anarchy yet hold criminals accountable for their crimes, you them have defacto rule, no matter how cleverly one attempts to say otherwise. You are, therefore, not an anarchy at all, but a minarchy. My point was that so-called "government" does not have to be evil. That they invariably are speaks more to our failings as people.

Every descriptor you used in this section applies equally to statist societies

And that was exactly my point. In terms of the pure concept of governnance, it does not matter how one slices the pie. You either have effective governance or you have chaos. It is as simple as that.

- and again, history provides an example of the most densely populated patch of earth ever, Kowloon Walled City, which was a stateless society, which did not devolve into meaningless violence, and in fact was so ridiculously easy to leave (it was only 6.5 acres) that logically it could not possibly have been as bad as even the trumped-up descriptions of it.

One example of thousands isn't exactly convincing proof. You are stuck on believing I said chaos is inevitable. I do not recall having written that, and if I did it was mistaken choice of words.

Thank you for attempting to convince me, but there are historical examples we can look at. If we look at them critically, then the arguments you offer don't cut as deep.

Fair enough, but you have ignored the aspect of the argument that governance is necessary in order to deal with criminals. Given this, it doesn't matter whether the mechanism is public or private - what matters is the nature of the government and to whom it shall be accountable and the nature of that accountability. Call it public, call it private - I don't care - but it needs to be just and it needs to be accountable to the people it ostensibly serves.

Consider the question of personal security also - a nation of thousands of provate governments poses potentially great threats to personal security. Today I can drive from NY to SF in comparative security from the standpoint of law and how it will meet me. Yeah, I know all kinds of fucked up things happen, but if the nation were dotted with ten thousand wholly self contained governments, how would anyone know whether they were rolling through Hazzard County, Boss Hogg's boys a-waitn' fer ye set foot so they could arrest and fleece and maybe jail the stranger? Having a national patchwork of governments seems a bad idea. A very bad one. And in such an event where one locality goes completely NAZI, what then? Are the people suffering under that rule and not allowed to leave not to be afforded any aid? Do the rest of us just sit back and say "gee what a shame"?

If we are going to be a nation, there should be a standard of governance and it should be a good one, not shit as it is now. Do we really have a beef with governance that is properly formed and carried out? Doe we have a problem with a government that keeps its nose out of peoples' business until a crime is reported? Are you saying such gvoernance is impossible to achieve? If so, then why would it be any different for private parties?

I'll say what I usually do at this point, though, as a consolation prize:
I fully realize that an anarchy is impossible, because every historical example I can find was violently wiped off the map by a state.

And I contend that no anarchies have existed in the past several thousands of years because even tribal cultures had rules and the means of enforcing them. But your point is well taken in that the freest nations such as those of a tribal nature (e.g. many Amazonian Indians) have been all but entirely wiped out by empire.

I also realize that getting to anarchy and sustaining is the crux of the matter.
I submit to you that getting to a limited government that only protects rights is an equally elusive unicorn.

We agree. But it is still a goal worth striving toward. After all, what is the alternative?

If we could get there, I'd be pretty happy. But the state has too many other negatives for me to support it openly.
I choose to pursue the unicorn that might finally convince others of the inherent disutility of the state.

Now YOU are conflating governance with STATE. :)

These questions are all matters of will and it is clear that sufficient will is not in place for improvements, save those of the most paltry nature. At that rate our great great grandchildrens' great great grandchildren will have been dust 500 years and we will still have the Fed and IRS. :(
 
Why do people keep trying to rile up their allies because they don't share the same views of 'purity'? Attacking people who already agree with the general direction of things is going to lead to nothing but petty infighting. It's the exact same thing when the atheists try to rile up the religious, it's childish and utterly pointless.

+rep
 
This is the heart of the article. The difference between a "minimal government" and tyranny is scale. The difference between market anarchy and minimal government is kind/type. "Minimal government" is not a third option, and must be either an aggressor or a market actor - which either makes it unacceptable as a minimal government for libertarians or not a government at all.

I wish this letter were a Mises Daily weekly, it cannot get enough play in the libertarian community.

I don't see this at all. Amount of government is not the issue at the heart of things. Nature is, and nature is a matter of choice that we make for ourselves or allow to have made.

Righ and just governance will be the same no matter what label you slap upon it. If the office holders mind their own business, then it matters not a whit whether they are public or private agents. Labels do not matter - structure and behavior do.

Government, whatever label you wish to give it, must guarantee and protect the rights of the individual. It must be just, fair and equitable in all cases - must be honest - if it is to have any legitimacy. Otherwise it is not government, it is tyranny/slavery.

I'm not sure why this seems to be so difficult to see.
 
I think you missed the part that if a government is only there to protect life, liberty, and property and will not aggress against others that try to fill it's role then you have a voluntary society. In addition, this is not really a government anymore because it does not have the monopoly of force in a given geographical area. But if the government uses force to limit others from competing with it then, it is not longer only protecting life, liberty, and property but itself. The individuals who run the government are now protecting their own power and legitimacy. Here lies the slippery slope of the leviathan.

I understand this and agree. The labels are murderously weighted with all manner of emotionally charged baggage, as are the issues and their attendant discussions. This is quite problematic because as I see it, we often talk right past each other and may not even realize it. This is one of the reasons I emphasize basic language skills and communication habits with such annoying repetetiveness. If we cannot understand each other clearly, we are in serious shit.

I'd say we are in serious shit. :(
 
I don't see this at all. Amount of government is not the issue at the heart of things. Nature is, and nature is a matter of choice that we make for ourselves or allow to have made.

Righ and just governance will be the same no matter what label you slap upon it. If the office holders mind their own business, then it matters not a whit whether they are public or private agents. Labels do not matter - structure and behavior do.

Government, whatever label you wish to give it, must guarantee and protect the rights of the individual. It must be just, fair and equitable in all cases - must be honest - if it is to have any legitimacy. Otherwise it is not government, it is tyranny/slavery.

I'm not sure why this seems to be so difficult to see.

If you are familiar with history one can see that governments main occupation is the growth and retention of it's power. Government is evil because it aggresses against the individual. It tells the individual that in order to protect ones liberty it must take from them first. In order for it to keep me safe from boogie men it must first take half my wage. It must instill a permanent tax on any land I own so that it can provide with local protection from criminals and fires. Thus in effect stealing it. It must run the economy so that rich men do not take advantage of me. All the while stealing it through inflation and switching gold and silver backed money to fiat currency. Thus in effect stealing it.

I have a feeling you are trying to make the point that Albert Jay Nock did with the difference between Government and the State. If this is so please let me know.
 
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At least leave the "thread moved" link in general politics?

Maybe a post from the mod who thought this was better placed here, explaining why he thought so?

No?
 
For a very short time I also believed in anarcho-capitalism but not anymore. One only need to look at the following video to see that a limited government is what we should strive for and that anarchy is only a vacuum waiting to be filled by an authority.

 
A minimalist government is required to provide a uniform method and system with which to address infringements of liberty, both by public and private institutions.

The least invasive and least destructive way in which to fund such government is through tariffs.

<<<Hauls ass before a bottle gets chucked at me.
 
For a very short time I also believed in anarcho-capitalism but not anymore.

Interesting. That's extremely rare, in my experience. Plenty of people going from Minarchism - Voluntaryism, but I can't say I've ever witnessed anyone go from Voluntaryism - Minarchism. First time for everything, i guess. :p

One only need to look at the following video to see that a limited government is what we should strive for and that anarchy is only a vacuum waiting to be filled by an authority.





That seems like a flawed way to look at it. As far as I can tell, it's the state that creates power vacuums, which then sucks up more and more resources over time, which leads to bankrupt economies, wars, and basically the worst kinds of things humanity has ever experienced. This has been demonstrated so many times throughout history, it's staggering.

You don't create a vacuum for cancer, by getting rid of your cancer. You don't create a vacuum for a criminal gang, by getting rid of a criminal gang. The power vacuums come from those who advocate, support and participate in things like Statism, violence and Aggression against others...

Also, consider watching this Molyneux Vs Badnarik debate...

 
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A minimalist government is required

Remember when you made the thread titled "Essence of government in one picture", and you used this picture to describe the essence of government?

Jackboots.jpg


So, is this really the essence of government? If so, why are you advocating a minimal amount of this?
 
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