A Step-by-Step, Logical, A Priori Refutation of Minarchism and 'Limited Government'. READ.

Is 'limited government' a unicorn?


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Morality 101: Kidnapping is bad. Stealing is bad. Violence is bad.

Statism 101: The above are bad unless the offender is considered to be part of a group called "the government". Then, it's necessary!
 
Minarchy is not likely to translate into anarchy, ever. Minarchy is far more likely to translate into more tyranny. It's not like some superhero Minarchists are going to gain control of a state and cut it's size down, and keep it that way until we can convince them of Voluntarism. Nope, sorry.

Assuming anarchy is desirable and it will take place some day, what would be the precipitating event that makes it happen?

1. Would it depend on the decision of a minority, like the anarchists at RPF?

2. Would it happen when anarchists move to state or city, like Keene, New Hampshire?

3. Would it happen when a significant number of people realize that taxation is theft and want to stop it?

If the third scenario is the one that will bring about anarchy, I argue that at least at first, the government will get much smaller. After all, when attitudes changes significantly people do force the government to stop doing some things. For example, alcohol was once illegal and then it was made legal.

Considering that you don't believe we will ever move towards a smaller state, you probably don't believe that anarchy will come about as in the third scenario. So what will happen before anarchy takes place, assuming it does some day?
 
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LPG, very thought provoking questions. I always appreciate the kinds of questions you ask, man. Of all the people on this board, you make me re-think my positions the most. Sometimes you flatout call me out when I'm being stupid, and while it may not seem like it at the time, i really do appreciate it, lol.

Not sure if that's worth anything to ya, but I just wanted to say it.

Assuming anarchy is desirable and it will take place some day, what would be the precipitating event that makes it happen?

1. Would it depend on the decision of a minority, like the anarchists at RPF?

2. Would it happen when anarchists move to state or city, like Keene, New Hampshire?

3. Would it happen when a significant number of people realize that taxation is theft and want to stop it?

I'm not confident enough to say any of them are the way "it will happen", or anything like that, but all of those factors do seem important to me.

1 and 2 seems like they are pretty related and are about of equal importance but, 3 is easily the most important one in that list to me. You can't fight evil, when people can't even see the evil. We need expose evil to change individual minds, before we can change the world and move towards more free-markets on a large scale. Not only that, but show them how they can achieve freedom in their own lives if they stop worrying about everyone else.

It's not the rapid solution that a lot of people seem to want, but I think it's probably the only real one that exists.

If the third scenario is the one that will bring about anarchy, I argue that at least at first, the government will get much smaller. After all, when attitudes changes significantly people do force the government to stop doing some things. For example, alcohol was once illegal and then it was made legal.

That seems intuitive, but the way I see it, the current existing states will all collapse at some point in the future, as states always do (not all at once, of course). And when they do, something will replace them. If that something is just another state, well then it's only a matter of time until the cycle repeats and we're back to square one, as far as I can see it.

In regards to "legalizing" substances... well... I suppose it could be argued that stopping alcohol prohibition was an example of the state getting smaller in one category. However, the state still has a very heavy hand in the alcohol trade, and it is anything but a free-market product. They just modified the rules a little bit, it's hardly "legal". Not to mention they have since expanded prohibition into many other substances.

In a way, getting the state to end prohibition by "legalizing" alcohol, was really just letting the state taking over and run the whole business by taking a massive cut of it all and setting all the rules. I can't even open up a bar without paying off bureaucrats for a "license" and obeying all the arbitrary rules that go along with it.

Considering that you don't believe we will ever move towards a smaller state, you probably don't believe that anarchy will come about as in the third scenario. So what will happen before anarchy takes place, assuming it does some day?

I believe that we probably will have a smaller state at some point in the not-so distant future, after the current ones we live under fail. It will be an improvement at first, but I think it's reasonable to assume that these states will grow 'til they collapse once again, no matter how small they are in the beginning.

I don't think it can be argued that we will establish a functional minarchy which will then lead to an Anarchy. I think Minarchy can only result in more government, not less.

I truly believe Individual Freedom / Anarchy is something virtually every single human wants for himself/herself. I also believe it exists virtually everywhere, all the time in most of our personal lives.

Anarchy on a wider scale can only grow naturally out of our human nature, it will not grow out of a Minarchy. The state will.
 
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We talked about taxes being theft a lot in this thread. And today, I was surprised to hear Mark Levin having a monologue saying that taxes are theft.

If a significant number of people learn about this view, I expect interesting things to happen.

http://www.therightscoop.com/levin-on-why-liberalism-is-inherently-immoral

Levin is a shill. He couldn't care less about the violence of the state when Bush was in charge, now that it's Obama he's jumping on the 'taxes are theft' train. If he succeeds in getting one of his guys back in office both he and his listeners will conveniently forget they ever talked about taxes as theft while the take more and more and more for wars, military spending and 'morality' enforcing.
 
Levin is a shill. He couldn't care less about the violence of the state when Bush was in charge, now that it's Obama he's jumping on the 'taxes are theft' train. If he succeeds in getting one of his guys back in office both he and his listeners will conveniently forget they ever talked about taxes as theft while the take more and more and more for wars, military spending and 'morality' enforcing.

Not sure about that. I'm sure Levin is a shill but some of the listeners might change their minds. There are many former neocons in our camp.
 
Not sure about that. I'm sure Levin is a shill but some of the listeners might change their minds. There are many former neocons in our camp.

Conceded. I shouldn't have gone so collective with the listener group, yes a very few of us (myself included) have come from the ranks of the "Hannity, Rush, Levin, Beck, Oreilly, et. al. listeners crowd" to where we are now, however we are clearly the exceptions. Just as there are a few D's who were turned stridently anti-war by Bush's presidency and have actually held onto it now that their guy is in office. The vast majority of them are just politiking.
 
For all minarchists and limited government folk on the forum.

http://www.isil.org/ayn-rand/childs-open-letter.html

I have read this letter before. It isn't all wrong, but there are problems.

It never ceases to amaze me the extent to which otherwise intelligent people fail in their analytical practices.

The author failed to address the essential, contrary to his claim at aiming to so do.

The real essence of the problem of governance has two basic elements. The first is the question of who is subject to governance. The second is who discharges the function.

Regarding the first, we can readily establish that there are two types of situations where governing functions may be called into play. The first is criminal and the other is tort
(I will omit breach because it is very much like tort in the sense of this discussion). In the former we may say that no free man is ever subject to governance. If one has committed no crime, there is no governing hand that may lay upon him. The moment he commits a crime, however, he is not longer a free man, but a criminal. In practical terms the change in status can only come about once the crime has been discovered and can be provably attributed to the man in question.

A free man who has committed a tort violation against another becomes indentured and thereby becomes subject to governance when the action in question is proven. As to the details such as what constitutes rightful governance in such cases I will not comment upon because I have yet to acquire the requisite expertise to do so.

In summary, those who commit torts or crimes are subject to the respective functions of governance, both of which ultimately involve the use of force and the threat thereof. This cannot by any means be avoided, save to allow for chaos to ensue. That is to say, the preservation of the fundamental rights of men from the predations and errors of some people must ultimately rely upon the use of force in order to have effect. Otherwise, criminals and the careless would simply ignore the rights of others with impunity. Clear?

Regarding the second fundamental point: who discharges the functions of governance upon those who fail to govern themselves. This is the truly hairy issue because it touches far more upon the practical than does the first issue, which is primarily one of philosophy, and a fairly simple and straightforward one at that.

Who act to govern? By what fundamental right do they do so? By what right do they do so vis-a-vis the rest of a population? For how long may they so function? What are the standards of judgment to which they must adhere? Who governs the governors when they fail to adhere to the standard of judgment? What are the consequences to governors for failing to properly discharge their functions, both positively and negatively? What shall be the framework of law and regulation by which they will proceed? This last question address the issues of real world operations - investigations, apprehension, trial, and disposition. How are the rights of the accused protected? What are the remedies for those falsely accused? And so the litany goes on for a bit longer.

These are the more fundamental issues that the author fails to address adequately. To eek out the "voluntarism" card is to evade these central questions. As far as the author went in some cases, I may be in agreement with his statements. What he seemed to sail right on past was the fact that even in a competitive and fully voluntarist market for "justice" and the protection of one's property rights, the fundamental issues and requirements still apply, and those ALWAYS boil down to the reservation of force as the ultimate, if last, resort. And of course there remains one of the penultimate issues of who oversee the governors in a specific case to ensure that they do their jobs competently and with honest impartiality. Basically, everyone must be monitoring everyone else in this regard and must be willing and able to spring to the rescue of those whose rights stand to be violated through corrupt or inept action. This is a very tall order.
 
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