A Step-by-Step, Logical, A Priori Refutation of Minarchism and 'Limited Government'. READ.

Is 'limited government' a unicorn?


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Ok I'm done with you. I tried to show you a serious problem for which I do not know an answer to and as soon as I proposed the first thing that popped into my mind you call me names.

You know what, I wanted to help you understand the human nature and the core of our problem but now I really don't care about you anymore. And although I would never even dream of forbidding anyone from saying anything or believing anything they wanted to believe in you sir, you can go fuck yourself and don't expect me to reply to you anymore, mkay?
 
Ok I'm done with you. I tried to show you a serious problem for which I do not know an answer to and as soon as I proposed the first thing that popped into my mind you call me names.

that's what happens when you suggest getting getting rid of the first amendment.

You know what, I wanted to help you understand the human nature and the core of our problem but now I really don't care about you anymore. And although I would never even dream of forbidding anyone from saying anything or believing anything they wanted to believe in you sir, you can go fuck yourself and don't expect me to reply to you anymore, mkay?

mkay.
 
You know, it isn't that easy to brainwash people. That's why it usually takes a lot of work, and hence, compulsory schooling for twelve freaking years. Getting rid of compulsory schooling would do a lot to limit the non-sense that we see all around us, and of course, in a market society there would be no compulsory schooling, and schooling would be highly competitive, though I would imagine a great deal of people would homeschool / unschool and guess what...it would not be illegal because there are no crimes against the State in a market society. Hallelujah. Of course, that isn't to say that there would be no propaganda, but that the amount of people to fall for easily disproved fallacies would drastically fall. Nationalism and Compulsory 'schooling' are the two biggest drum-beats for propaganda, both absent in market society. With a State, even those proclaimed by minimalist Statists, most still think that Government should provide 'schooling'. In any event, there are some ills in the world which will never be gotten rid of, but we can reduce them. Besides, there is no historical account of a market/anarchist society ever collapsing or forming into a State on its own volition. That should be an indicator of the power of society absent the State to resist it with such power. Ah, good ol; E. L. Boetie.

Besides, propaganda isn't cheap. It costs. Without taxation (E.g. socialization of cost), many entities would not be able to afford much of it in the first place.
 
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Without guaranteed funding (like taxation) for their company, they would go out of business pretty fast once people realized they had been lied to.

I would also imagine that there would be a market for third party evaluation. Defense agencies who are certified/insured by a third party who guarantees quality would get more business by reassuring their customers. Mary Ruwart goes into this in more detail in 'Healing our World in an Age of Aggression'.

With the exception of state functions funded through force, businesses survive by treating their customers well.

Also, unlike the police nowadays who get away with crime all the time, there would be no special immunities for private defense agencies. A defense agency committing fraud would not only be risking loss of business and reputation, but also risk facing the legal consequences. Rothbard goes into more detail dealing with fraud in 'For a New Liberty' and 'Ethics of Liberty'.

Risking losing business to competition, risking legal consequences, and third party evaluation would each alone be enough to discourage fraud.

Ok that answer might have done it. You are right I forgot about the difference between statism and anarcho-capitalism is that in the later people have to pay out of their own wallet and are not taxed collectively so they'd probably pay more attention to fraudulent behavior. And although it might happen it wouldn't last.

Cool, thank you for your answer, I think you satisfied my question or if nothing more gave me something to think about.
 
Edit: By propaganda I assumed you were implying lying, fraud, etc. By definition, propaganda isn't a whole lot different than advertising. There is nothing wrong inherently wrong with advertising or persuasion. If they were based on lies, then essentially it becomes fraud. If Private Defense Agency advertises for X, and in the contract it guarantees to provide X but fails to provide X, that would be fraud. Which would be dealt with by contract enforcement, fraud protection, etc etc.

Right.

I think the main thing I forget when I asked that question was that in a anarcho-capitalistic society the media probably wouldn't be owned by a single block of power hungry faceless corporations and people could actually sue them for spreading lies and there would more competition so they'd probably strive to provide the most accurate information possible.
 
Well then anarcho-capitalism all the way baby!

See "low preference guy" I too can learn if I get the right information and those giving it aren't acting like huge douche bags and assholes.
 
No one liked my slavery idea?

Its a great idea! jk

You bring up a good point though. The slave abolitionists didn't have be able to map out an entire post-slavery economy and a successful post-slavery social structure (that would be an argument for a dictatorship anyways! :P) to give legitimacy to their anti-slavery arguments.
 
Its a great idea! jk

You bring up a good point though. The slave abolitionists didn't have be able to map out an entire post-slavery economy and a successful post-slavery social structure (that would be an argument for a dictatorship anyways! :P) to give legitimacy to their anti-slavery arguments.

bingo
 
Well then anarcho-capitalism all the way baby!

See "low preference guy" I too can learn if I get the right information and those giving it aren't acting like huge douche bags and assholes.

dude, i'm too emotional to understand that. don't try to give me arguments. we are emotional beings.
 
dude, i'm too emotional to understand that. don't try to give me arguments. we are emotional beings.

Whoops, yep you are right. That outburst of yours definitely was an emotional reaction but I don't know if that should excuse you. I'm not saying it should or it shouldn't but I'm saying that I don't know if you should be responsible for your emotional reaction.
 
Oh and if you think you caught me in a logical fallacy because I'm trying to reason why your actions are based on emotions and not reason you are wrong. I'm not saying the world operates around emotions but only us human beings meaning while our decisions are made because of emotions doesn't exclude us from comprehending scientifically proven logic of how the world functions of which we are part of.

We are capable of understanding logic and science but our decision(or in your case indecision) to learn about logic and science is emotionally motivated.
 
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Those of you arguing for anarcho-capitalism please help me understand how in such a society you'd keep the people from falling victim to propaganda of a say security company from singing bad contracts out of fear?

If you can effectively answer this question I will never doubt anarcho-capitalism again.

Deleted.
 
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I agree with pretty much everything here. Honestly I believe that *ultimately*, you are probably an anarchist to the same extent that I am or others here - or at least on your way there very soon (maybe just some more reading is needed ;)).

Personally, I support minarchism as a *stepping stone* to an anarchist society once it is shown how the market can much more effectively provide services than the government (though I certainly wouldn't object to a hypothetical situation where we could make the jump to an anarchocapitalist one). Once this is realized, it will be much easier to convince people to move closer to true anarchism and work towards marketizing the rest of government.

Personally, with the freeflow of information and communication, and the dialectics that are taking place, and with the example and support of the internet, I think this is inevitable. True liberty *will* win out. For the State, it is just a matter of time before it dissappears. I just hope I get to see it in my lifetime - that's the only question.

I don't think it is realistic to expect people will simply support a sudden and dramatic switch from a big government like we have now to an anarchocapitalist society. Although I do support movement in that direction as quickly as possible - I think this begins with moving towards minarchism as quickly as possible to show the benefits of the truly free market and how it can accomplish anything.

That ^
 
Do You Hate The State?

Murray N. Rothbard

I have been ruminating recently on what are the crucial questions that divide libertarians. Some that have received a lot of attention in the last few years are: anarcho-capitalism vs. limited government, abolitionism vs. gradualism, natural rights vs. utilitarianism, and war vs. peace. But I have concluded that as important as these questions are, they don’t really cut to the nub of the issue, of the crucial dividing line between us.

Let us take, for example, two of the leading anarcho-capitalist works of the last few years: my own For a New Liberty and David Friedman’s Machinery of Freedom. Superficially, the major differences between them are my own stand for natural rights and for a rational libertarian law code, in contrast to Friedman’s amoralist utilitarianism and call for logrolling and trade-offs between non-libertarian private police agencies. But the difference really cuts far deeper. There runs through For a New Liberty (and most of the rest of my work as well) a deep and pervasive hatred of the State and all of its works, based on the conviction that the State is the enemy of mankind. In contrast, it is evident that David does not hate the State at all; that he has merely arrived at the conviction that anarchism and competing private police forces are a better social and economic system than any other alternative. Or, more fully, that anarchism would be better than laissez-faire which in turn is better than the current system. Amidst the entire spectrum of political alternatives, David Friedman has decided that anarcho-capitalism is superior. But superior to an existing political structure which is pretty good too. In short, there is no sign that David Friedman in any sense hates the existing American State or the State per se, hates it deep in his belly as a predatory gang of robbers, enslavers, and murderers. No, there is simply the cool conviction that anarchism would be the best of all possible worlds, but that our current set-up is pretty far up with it in desirability. For there is no sense in Friedman that the State – any State – is a predatory gang of criminals.

The same impression shines through the writing, say, of political philosopher Eric Mack. Mack is an anarcho-capitalist who believes in individual rights; but there is no sense in his writings of any passionate hatred of the State, or, a fortiori, of any sense that the State is a plundering and bestial enemy.

Perhaps the word that best defines our distinction is "radical." Radical in the sense of being in total, root-and-branch opposition to the existing political system and to the State itself. Radical in the sense of having integrated intellectual opposition to the State with a gut hatred of its pervasive and organized system of crime and injustice. Radical in the sense of a deep commitment to the spirit of liberty and anti-statism that integrates reason and emotion, heart and soul.

Furthermore, in contrast to what seems to be true nowadays, you don’t have to be an anarchist to be radical in our sense, just as you can be an anarchist while missing the radical spark. I can think of hardly a single limited governmentalist of the present day who is radical – a truly amazing phenomenon, when we think of our classical liberal forbears who were genuinely radical, who hated statism and the States of their day with a beautifully integrated passion: the Levellers, Patrick Henry, Tom Paine, Joseph Priestley, the Jacksonians, Richard Cobden, and on and on, a veritable roll call of the greats of the past. Tom Paine’s radical hatred of the State and statism was and is far more important to the cause of liberty than the fact that he never crossed the divide between laissez-faire and anarchism.

And closer to our own day, such early influences on me as Albert Jay Nock, H. L. Mencken, and Frank Chodorov were magnificently and superbly radical. Hatred of "Our Enemy, the State" (Nock’s title) and all of its works shone through all of their writings like a beacon star. So what if they never quite made it all the way to explicit anarchism? Far better one Albert Nock than a hundred anarcho-capitalists who are all too comfortable with the existing status quo.

Where are the Paines and Cobdens and Nocks of today? Why are almost all of our laissez-faire limited governmentalists plonky conservatives and patriots? If the opposite of "radical" is "conservative," where are our radical laissez-fairists? If our limited statists were truly radical, there would be virtually no splits between us. What divides the movement now, the true division, is not anarchist vs. minarchist, but radical vs. conservative. Lord, give us radicals, be they anarchists or no.

To carry our analysis further, radical anti-statists are extremely valuable even if they could scarcely be considered libertarians in any comprehensive sense. Thus, many people admire the work of columnists Mike Royko and Nick von Hoffman because they consider these men libertarian sympathizers and fellow-travelers. That they are, but this does not begin to comprehend their true importance. For throughout the writings of Royko and von Hoffman, as inconsistent as they undoubtedly are, there runs an all-pervasive hatred of the State, of all politicians, bureaucrats, and their clients which, in its genuine radicalism, is far truer to the underlying spirit of liberty than someone who will coolly go along with the letter of every syllogism and every lemma down to the "model" of competing courts.

Taking the concept of radical vs. conservative in our new sense, let us analyze the now famous "abolitionism" vs. "gradualism" debate. The latter jab comes in the August issue of Reason (a magazine every fiber of whose being exudes "conservatism"), in which editor Bob Poole asks Milton Friedman where he stands on this debate. Freidman takes the opportunity of denouncing the "intellectual cowardice" of failing to set forth "feasible" methods of getting "from here to there." Poole and Friedman have between them managed to obfuscate the true issues. There is not a single abolitionist who would not grab a feasible method, or a gradual gain, if it came his way. The difference is that the abolitionist always holds high the banner of his ultimate goal, never hides his basic principles, and wishes to get to his goal as fast as humanly possible. Hence, while the abolitionist will accept a gradual step in the right direction if that is all that he can achieve, he always accepts it grudgingly, as merely a first step toward a goal which he always keeps blazingly clear. The abolitionist is a "button pusher" who would blister his thumb pushing a button that would abolish the State immediately, if such a button existed. But the abolitionist also knows that alas, such a button does not exist, and that he will take a bit of the loaf if necessary – while always preferring the whole loaf if he can achieve it.

It should be noted here that many of Milton’s most famous "gradual" programs such as the voucher plan, the negative income tax, the withholding tax, fiat paper money – are gradual (or even not so gradual) steps in the wrong direction, away from liberty, and hence the militance of much libertarian opposition to these schemes.

His button-pushing position stems from the abolitionist’s deep and abiding hatred of the State and its vast engine of crime and oppression. With such an integrated world-view, the radical libertarian could never dream of confronting either a magic button or any real-life problem with some arid cost-benefit calculation. He knows that the State must be diminished as fast and as completely as possible. Period.

And that is why the radical libertarian is not only an abolitionist, but also refuses to think in such terms as a Four Year Plan for some sort of stately and measured procedure for reducing the State. The radical – whether he be anarchist or laissez-faire – cannot think in such terms as, e.g.: Well, the first year, we’ll cut the income tax by 2%, abolish the ICC, and cut the minimum wage; the second year we’ll abolish the minimum wage, cut the income tax by another 2%, and reduce welfare payments by 3%, etc. The radical cannot think in such terms, because the radical regards the State as our mortal enemy, which must be hacked away at wherever and whenever we can. To the radical libertarian, we must take any and every opportunity to chop away at the State, whether it’s to reduce or abolish a tax, a budget appropriation, or a regulatory power. And the radical libertarian is insatiable in this appetite until the State has been abolished, or – for minarchists – dwindled down to a tiny, laissez-faire role.

Many people have wondered: Why should there be any important political disputes between anarcho-capitalists and minarchists now? In this world of statism, where there is so much common ground, why can’t the two groups work in complete harmony until we shall have reached a Cobdenite world, after which we can air our disagreements? Why quarrel over courts, etc. now? The answer to this excellent question is that we could and would march hand-in-hand in this way if the minarchists were radicals, as they were from the birth of classical liberalism down to the 1940s. Give us back the antistatist radicals, and harmony would indeed reign triumphant within the movement.
 
Rothbard recognized that minarchism is a valid position, and I agree with him on his radicalism. I want an end to the occupation of the State by the laws to not apply to us elite criminal cabals ... Honest Limited Government NOW!
 
of course it's an invalid position; to have even minimal government, you still have to use violence to fund it--from there, it's bound to just evolve into a fully fledged state, over time.
 
It is already ingrained in most people that stealing is wrong, its just that most people haven't came to the realization that taxation is theft. Its not that too many people think stealing is ok, its that they are indoctrinated into believing that taxation is voluntary and therefore not theft. The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name and most people haven't identified taxes for what they really are.

When I was young, I was told there are only two certainties in life, "death and taxes." I disagreed because I thought taxes could be ended without dying. Little did I know at the time that that wisdom was a fact. Taxes have never been truly absent or voluntary, and they will likely never be so ... even though taxes are theft.

We had a farm and a big family. Mom & Dad told us what to do and when to do it, Grandma & Grandpa worked or didn't whenever they wanted, the young played, and older siblings worked with Mom & Dad to produce. There was no monetary compensation, we worked for food, housing and clothes. We raised corn, beans, wheat, oats, hay, 1000 head of hogs, 150 cattle, chickens, pets and a large garden. We lived well enough, but I dare say that I often wanted to bug out because the work hours were long, and in those days fairly hard. It was not really accomplished voluntarily, but sharing was embraced. I have no regrets.

I would imagine it would have been similar in hunter and gather societies. The old and young are dependent on producers. Rulers emerge to accomplish productive tasks. Taxation is a fact of life. Making taxes as small and fair as possible is a worthy goal.

or is it that most people think taxes are ok because they don't realize it is theft?
Taxes are necessary in every society because self-ownership =/= self-dependence.
 
Personally, I support minarchism as a *stepping stone* to an anarchist society once it is shown how the market can much more effectively provide services than the government (though I certainly wouldn't object to a hypothetical situation where we could make the jump to an anarchocapitalist one). Once this is realized, it will be much easier to convince people to move closer to true anarchism and work towards marketizing the rest of government.

I used to feel that way, but lately i've been feeling it's just flatout wrong. Minarchy has demonstrated itself to be far more likely to lead us down a path towards more state intervention, not less state intervention.

I don't think it is realistic to expect people will simply support a sudden and dramatic switch from a big government like we have now to an anarchocapitalist society. Although I do support movement in that direction as quickly as possible - I think this begins with moving towards minarchism as quickly as possible to show the benefits of the truly free market and how it can accomplish anything.

Minarchy is a seed for state power, not free-markets. We will never move towards Minarchism, because it's illogical. As soon as a state is granted legitimacy, no matter how big or small, it will grow until it can't sustain itself anymore. This has been demonstrated throughout history more times than I can count.

Minarchy is not likely to translate into anarchy, ever. Minarchy is far more likely to translate into more tyranny. It's not like some superhero Minarchists are going to gain control of a state and cut it's size down, and keep it that way until we can convince them of Voluntarism. Nope, sorry.
 
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