A Step-by-Step, Logical, A Priori Refutation of Minarchism and 'Limited Government'. READ.

[erowe1]

Right.There is no universal justification for individual claims to property ownership

Sure there is. "Thou shalt not steal."

 

[low preference guy]

A lot of minarchists claim even to support "voluntary taxation" which is a complete oxymoron. I remember the cognitive dissonance that goes along with these kinds of positions. It isn't enjoyable, lol.

it's not necessarily an oxymoron if they define taxation as government funding. i define taxation differently, as forced government funding, so there can be no voluntary taxation. but i recognize that different dictionaries have different definitions of taxation.

 

[mczerone]

government is funded by taxes as of today, so the time where people learn that taxation is improper will be a time when there are taxes. (taxes won't be abolished before people learn they should be abolished). if the founders were smart enough to not fuck up the educational system, a more significant number of people would've been able to see the obvious.

But the taxation power allowed the govt the ability to fund public education, and to control States' education curricula and forms because it had amassed a great purse.

But more fundamentally: govts do not learn. They grow and grow until they fail, often violently. Market agencies learn from prices, from having willing customers, from having to deal with other justice agencies seeking restitution from them. Further, it doesn't take the mass of people to influence the services of market agencies - it only takes a few who are willing to support them. Kumon Learning Centers have a much better education system than do public schools, but their customers do not have to convince the entirety of the population that their way is the best, or that competitors are worse. The very existence of a central power that all people in a geographic area to which the inhabitants must subscribe takes the feedback mechanism of the market out of the equation, and only the mob has any power to change anything.

The govt is what everyone is afraid of the free market becoming.

 

[Travlyr]

A lot of minarchists claim even to support "voluntary taxation" which is a complete oxymoron. I remember the cognitive dissonance that goes along with these kinds of positions. It isn't enjoyable, lol.

The Income Tax is voluntary. Granted it takes a lot of study, expense and time to find all the loopholes, but some corporations, trusts, foundations, and individuals do exactly that.

 

[ClayTrainor]

The Income Tax is voluntary. Granted it takes a lot of study, expense and time to find all the loopholes, but some corporations, trusts, foundations, and individuals do exactly that.

It's voluntary? That's like saying paying the bank robber with a gun to your head is voluntary.

What tends to happen to people who don't file their income taxes, or choose not to pay it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_history#Sherry_Peel_Jackson

Sherry Peel Jackson is a former Internal Revenue Service Agent and a former Certified Public Accountant[78]. On February 14th, 2008 she was sentenced to four years in federal prison for failure to file her tax returns[79]

lol, yea... It's voluntary, right?

 

[Travlyr]

Sure there is. "Thou shalt not steal."

That is not what he said. Please explain how real property boundaries are determined and property ownership rights exist without agreements.

 

[Travlyr]

A lot of people do not pay income tax and do not go to jail.

I do not favor or agree with the government levying an income tax, but I am simply proving that if you are smart, you can write off enough business expenses to not pay any income tax year in and year out. A lot of people do. That makes it voluntary.

 

[ClayTrainor]

A lot of people do not pay income tax and do not go to jail.

A lot of people don't pay income tax and do go to jail for that exact reason... so it must be voluntary, right?

Do you see how fucking stupid your position is yet?

 

[ClayTrainor]

I do not favor or agree with the government levying an income tax, but I am simply proving that if you are smart, you can write off enough business expenses to not pay any income tax year in and year out. A lot of people do. That makes it voluntary.

That's like saying... "if you can sweet talk the bank robber with all the right words, he might not rob you, therefore it's voluntary". It's total horseshit, and i think you know it.

 

[Travlyr]

That's like saying... "if you can sweet talk the bank robber with all the right words, he might not rob you, therefore it's voluntary". It's total horseshit, and i think you know it.

No it's not. It is like saying to the government, "if I don't want to pay your tax, then I will use your rules to avoid paying tax." People do it all the time.

 

[ClayTrainor]

No it's not. It is like saying to the government, "if I don't want to pay your tax, then I will use your rules to avoid paying tax."

So, it's like the bank robber saying "You don't have to give me the money, if you suck my D***"

Therefore, it's voluntary, because you don't have to pay him, if you just use his rules.

Yea, your "voluntary taxation" position is horseshit, and you know it.

 

[Travlyr]

So, it's like the bank robber saying "You don't have to give me the money, if you suck my D***"

Therefore, it's voluntary, because you don't have to pay him, if you just use his rules.

Yea, your "voluntary taxation" position is horseshit, and you know it.

Well then go ahead and pay your taxes. It's fine with me. My point is that some people opt out.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Well then go ahead and pay your taxes. It's fine with me. My point is that some people opt out.

Yea, they sure do. Income tax is voluntary folks... Travlyr just proved it with his sound logic, lmfao!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_history#Sherry_Peel_Jackson

Sherry Peel Jackson is a former Internal Revenue Service Agent and a former Certified Public Accountant[78]. On February 14th, 2008 she was sentenced to four years in federal prison for failure to file her tax returns[79]

If only they had someone like Travlyr to explain to them how voluntary it all is, they would understand why they are in jail!

 

[Travlyr]

The larger question here ClayTrainor is property ownership rights ... and I want you to answer this question. Let's say that I want to buy five acres of land to build a house and plant a garden. Under a limited government, that plot would be registered at the county in the public records so that everyone knows who owns it and where the boundaries are. In a stateless society how could that be done?

 

[mczerone]

A lot of people do not pay income tax and do not go to jail.

I do not favor or agree with the government levying an income tax, but I am simply proving that if you are smart, you can write off enough business expenses to not pay any income tax year in and year out. A lot of people do. That makes it voluntary.

If I kidnapped you and put you in a locked room, but put in a secret escape hatch that you could access by scaling the south wall and pulling a lever to open one set of locks, then lighting a candle with two sticks i left on the floor to melt the plastic casing around the thermostat which was really just housing the second set of locks, and you opened them, and then got the door to open but had to jump 50ft to the ground to escape, have I really kidnapped you?

They aren't "voluntary" if you have to affirmatively expend a whole bunch of time, effort, and resources to avoid them.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

If you're an anarchist who believes in no government then you can't believe in the principle of private property rights either. The government exists for the purpose of protecting life, liberty, and private property rights.

LOLZ!!! I hope that was implied sarcasm.

 

[low preference guy]

The Income Tax is voluntary. Granted it takes a lot of study, expense and time to find all the loopholes, but some corporations, trusts, foundations, and individuals do exactly that.

if to avoid income taxes you have to sing a magic chant, a chant that takes tons of time and money to figure out, then income taxes aren't voluntary.

 

[Travlyr]

I believe there should be no penalty for avoiding taxes. And I can see how they are not voluntary.

 

[ClayTrainor]

The larger question here ClayTrainor is property ownership rights

No, it isn't. You're just trying to go off an a tangent, because I just demonstrated that your entire "taxation is voluntary" argument is horseshit.

and I want you to answer this question.

I suspect that you want to take the conversation onto a tangent to avoid the embarrassment that just occurred.

Let's say that I want to buy five acres of land to build a house and plant a garden. Under a limited government, that plot would be registered at the county in the public records so that everyone knows who owns it and where the boundaries are. In a stateless society how could that be done?

This has pretty muchg nothing to do with what we're talking about. Now you're probably going to say something along the lines of...

"see the anarchists can't answer simple questions, therefore i win."

I could answer it, and I actually feel that me and you have addressed this exact topic before in other therads. I would also suspect that you have probably been over this topic multiple times with other an-caps in multiple threads.

I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of taking this convo onto a new tangent, because I know how badly i just demolished your previous argument, and I'm comfortable at leaving it there.

Have a good night.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

The larger question here ClayTrainor is property ownership rights ... and I want you to answer this question. Let's say that I want to buy five acres of land to build a house and plant a garden. Under a limited government, that plot would be registered at the county in the public records so that everyone knows who owns it and where the boundaries are. In a stateless society how could that be done?

Yes, but this just means the person has registered property with the government. This is not the same thing as owning it. If people really owned their property, the government couldn't tell them what to do with it, build on it, etc (unless their actions harmed someone else). This is not so in the current regime. The vast majority of "property owners" in this country are little more than free-range serfs.

In a Stateless society, there would be numerous alternatives to the "registry problem". One that comes to mind is allowing a market for businesses that provide registries to grow. AFAIK, most of the technical issues involved can be managed on computer databases.

gtg, ttyl.