A Step-by-Step, Logical, A Priori Refutation of Minarchism and 'Limited Government'. READ.

Is 'limited government' a unicorn?


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I have yet to read the article in its entirety, but what I have read thus far has problems in the reasoning and I will point out one of the more glaring examples.

He states that a government can be either statist or limited. Forgetting statist government for the clear evil it represents, let us look at limited forms where he asserts:

"limited government, which holds a monopoly on retaliation but does not initiate the use or threat of physical force;"

And goes on wqith:

"It is my contention that limited government is a floating abstraction which has never been concretized by anyone; that a limited government must either initiate force or cease being a government; that the very concept of limited government is an unsuccessful attempt to integrate two mutually contradictory elements: statism and voluntarism. Hence, if this can be shown, epistemological clarity and moral consistency demands the rejection of the institution of government totally, resulting in free market anarchism, or a purely voluntary society."

This ignores another possibility: a laissez faire government whose ONLY purpose is to protect the rights of its citizens. Part of that role would include investigation of charges of rights violations and to take remedial steps where called for. Such a government would have no power to stop private parties from voluntarily engaging in business transactions regardless of their nature. They would act only responsively to charges. If, for example, my property is stolen and I hire XYZ Inc. or even my burly neighbor to retrieve it, I would be well within my rights to do so.

If, on the other hand, I hired the same to retrieve property that was in fact NOT mine, which is to say I hired them to steal for me and the victim made charges to "government", the role would be to investigate and respond with force against force in the case where the charges proved true. Childs appears to wholly ignore this possibility.

As I have mentioned before, there is no fundamental advantage of private "government" over public, and infact are some notable disadvantages. In either case a subset of the population assumes and exercises certain powers as matters of office - of their roles and the underlying purposes thereof. The salient point is NOT whether the offices are formally public or private, but rather what are the powers and their associated parameters of exercise.

There is nothing in principle to stop a market anarchy from devolving into pure feudalism. I suspect that where issues arise between "factions" that are of sufficient importance to the parties in question, feudalism is precisely what would arise. E.g. one group arbitrarily identifying itself as "environmentalist" is against another group identifying itself as "industrialist" where matters of environmental pollution are in question. The former wants clean air etc. while the latter simply do not care - their focus is on production and innovation, the environment be damned. If the former feel sufficiently threatened by the actions of the latter, what do we suppose will ultimately transpire? In all likelihood, use of force - possibly violence - to make the "polluters" stop what they are doing. Likewise, the industrialists would retaliate against the environmentalists' trespass, asserting their right to act.

Who is right? Who is wrong? They are each right and wrong by their own ways of seeing the world. In such a case there are three possibilities that arise - the parties fight, possibly even murdering each other in pursuit of their mutually conflicting goals - they come to an agreement and avert disaster (unlikely where such strong beliefs are in question), or a third party mediates a solution, either siding in-toto with one party, or hammering out a compromise between them. This third party could well be a private entity, and if the disagreeing parties are amenable to such an arrangement, fine. But what if they are not and the only path they are willing to embark upon is that of open warfare - actual physical violence?

We might say that it is their right to mutually engage in such action so long as all the members are agreed that war is what they want. From a purely libertarian standpoint this is the proper way, but other problems may still arise. What if, for instance, the warring activities spill over into communities neither party to the dispute nor wishing any involvement? How are their rights protected? Do THEY have to now take up arms in defense of their own interests? We could say yes even to this, but consider the possibility for cascading warfare. But what if there were a generally recognized third party who held the authority to step in once the rights of even a single individual were violated and and whose ONLY purpose was to put an end to initiated force? If the warring spilled into another party's territory and that party asked for third party ("government") intervention, would that not be preferable to allowing violence to spread? The only thing "government" would do in this case is bring the spread of violence to an end.

The difference here lies in accountability. Even private entities hold some public accountability, which translates very directly and without modification into governance. This cannot be avoided, save to accept nihilism and the chaos it engenders in real world situations. In my world, "government" would be the last resort where serious disputes arouse between people. Their prerogatives to act would be very tightly circumscribed and any violations of the parameters of action under which its members labors would be cause for a stern and public accounting, the penalties bordering on the draconian.

Just and proper governance is eminently attainable in principle. In practice, it is another thing altogether. The problem is not governance per se, but of individuals. Until enough of us choose the path of real liberty and all that it requires of us, there is no system of governance (or government, if you prefer) that will serve us so much as marginally well.

I might also add that in practical terms there is likely to never be any such thing as "anarchy" because some form of governance will always be needed, unless we are to accept pure chaos as our way of life. In a so-called "anarchy", would people not deal with those who rape, rob, murder, and defraud? If not, then it is pure wild-west nihilism and those with the most power will enslave those without. This is observable human nature and the past several thousands of years of human history paint a truth that is not reasonably refuted. The larger a population becomes, the stronger becomes this truth.

Even tribal, anarchic cultures had rules, minimal as they may have been - which means that even those were not utterly devoid of governing elements. In the event a member commits a criminal act, even those cultures call upon one to account for his actions.

The question, then, is not whether we should have governance. In the choice between minimal, righteous, well reasoned, just governance and nihilism, I believe the great majority would opt for the former, and rightly so. The question, however, becomes one of how to establish such governance such that human freedom - proper freedom based on our equal claims to life - is not curtailed in any way. That is the $64 question and I feel it is well about time that people got off this silly bandwagon of "to have or not to have" and get back to the real world of practical solutions.

I have demonstrated to myself in the most unequivocal terms that such governance - PUBLICY ACCOUNTABLE governance - is attainable. I have also concluded that the practical challenges of attaining such governance are formidable on even the best days. The requirements of liberty are daunting and because of this, most people are not willing to do what it takes to ensure the most fundamental elements of the welfare of their own children, much less themselves, their communities, or the nation.

So again I will repeat what bears it: the question is not one of whether to have government, but how to structure, implement, and maintain it such that the absolute freedom of the individual is preserved intact as we move from one day into the next.
 
What about Switzerland? It's a real-world experiment in limited government, of long standing. The federal government is forced to share power with the cantons, who jealously guard their prerogatives. True, there has been conflict between the federal goverment and the cantons (as in 1848), but not to such an extent as to vitiate the original premises of the arrangement. The cantons have not been debased into being mere enforcers of unfunded mandates handed down from the federal level—unlike the situations in the US, Canada and Australia. The federal level of government remains no more important than the cantonal. Statists would certainly regard its institution as being underdeveloped.

There are no perfect solutions; there are only optimal solutions. I propose Switzerland not as a utopian ideal, but as an empirical example of limited government. Yes, limited government is possible. The Swiss have ideas and structures worthy of emulation.

Excellently stated!
 
This letter makes IMO pretty unanswerable arguments.
If there is a logical refutation, I need to see it and review it before turning away from anarchism.
Anti-anarchists never offer refutations, only empty denouncements, fallacies, and declarations that the idea is crazy.
In short, until someone shows me the money, I'm not going back.

See my answer elsewhere in this thread.
 
From the article,

On what authority does he own goods? Undefined property boundaries and rights leave each person to determine what is his/hers. For example, if he leaves what he claims to be his bicycle outside is it on his land? What right does he have to go after someone who took it and claims that he now owns it? Possession is 9/10 of the law.

Good point. In my view, proper governance holds the single role of guardian to the rights of the individual, holding up the immutable principles of liberty as the objective standard by which all action is taken. Period. Not an iota more.
 
Why do people keep trying to rile up their allies because they don't share the same views of 'purity'? Attacking people who already agree with the general direction of things is going to lead to nothing but petty infighting. It's the exact same thing when the atheists try to rile up the religious, it's childish and utterly pointless.
 
Anarchy is a perpetual non-sequitur.

Even the concept of "voluntaryism" is a limited government concept.

"No one is allowed to initiate force" = single governing rule.

All you "NAP" proponents should start fixing yourself by first admitting that you support limited government, and then by realizing that your concept of government is so limited, that it is actually useless.

Hear hear. Without governance of some form, how is crime to be addressed? The sole alternative is nihilism - law of the jungle at a low level of organization, feudalism at the middle, and statism at the top.

Does anyone here think we have GOVERNMENT in the USA? I do not. We have a mob exercising it arbitrary and capricious power over the rest. This is most definitely nihilism at the higher/highest level of organization. Anything goes... for those in power, that is.

I am thinking that perhaps the time is upon us to start examining this distinction between actual "government" and mafia rule. "government" has gotten perhaps a bad rap in all of this - depending on how one defines the term in some of the more important specifics. In any event, I would tend to say that by definition, "government" is just. If this is so, then what we have all across this world of ours is not government, but rather something else.

Something to think about.
 
Why do people keep trying to rile up their allies because they don't share the same views of 'purity'? Attacking people who already agree with the general direction of things is going to lead to nothing but petty infighting. It's the exact same thing when the atheists try to rile up the religious, it's childish and utterly pointless.

God forbid we continue to have discussions on the implications of our support for liberty and to what the ultimate aim is?

We (mostly) all already acknowledge we are moving in the same direction and will be allies for an extended period of time while furthering goal of the maximization of liberty.

Any infighting that happens in minor disagreements about the details doesn't last long - and it seems the vast majority of us continue to support eachother and be friends. Meanwhile, more and more may be convinced of one side or the other for all intents and purposes ;)

The goal is truth, justice and prosperity. Dialectics for the win.
 
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What about Switzerland? It's a real-world experiment in limited government, of long standing. The federal government is forced to share power with the cantons, who jealously guard their prerogatives. True, there has been conflict between the federal goverment and the cantons (as in 1848), but not to such an extent as to vitiate the original premises of the arrangement. The cantons have not been debased into being mere enforcers of unfunded mandates handed down from the federal level—unlike the situations in the US, Canada and Australia. The federal level of government remains no more important than the cantonal. Statists would certainly regard its institution as being underdeveloped.

There are no perfect solutions; there are only optimal solutions. I propose Switzerland not as a utopian ideal, but as an empirical example of limited government. Yes, limited government is possible. The Swiss have ideas and structures worthy of emulation.
Correct answer and +rep
 
See my answer elsewhere in this thread.

1. You and Childs both conflate government and the state. You bring up a valid concern that market anarchy would devolve into feudalism, but your point has two flaws:
first, that historical feudal societies (like England and Japan) evolved when one state conquered several other states, and
second, that historical geographically overlapping private governments (e.g., Ireland) did not devolve into feudalism.
This IMO invalidates the assertion that feudalism is the inevitable result.
I (and a lot of others who are sold on the idea) do not conflate the two ideas, so I'll need something more than the threat of feudalism, because it doesn't apply.

2. The threat of open physical violence to resolve disputes- How is that different from what we have now? With state sponsored violence, I can be dragged into the war involuntarily. With private actors, the violence is not only limited in scope, but where there are geographically overlapping governments, there is very little chance for conscription. Likewise, this argument falls flat, particularly when we examine that historical stateless societies were comparatively nonviolent.

3. I don't recall ever hearing or reading an argument in support of anarchy which espouses nihilism - in fact, they were are all careful to address it. Every descriptor you used in this section applies equally to statist societies - and again, history provides an example of the most densely populated patch of earth ever, Kowloon Walled City, which was a stateless society, which did not devolve into meaningless violence, and in fact was so ridiculously easy to leave (it was only 6.5 acres) that logically it could not possibly have been as bad as even the trumped-up descriptions of it.

Thank you for attempting to convince me, but there are historical examples we can look at. If we look at them critically, then the arguments you offer don't cut as deep.
I'll say what I usually do at this point, though, as a consolation prize:
I fully realize that an anarchy is impossible, because every historical example I can find was violently wiped off the map by a state.
I also realize that getting to anarchy and sustaining is the crux of the matter.
I submit to you that getting to a limited government that only protects rights is an equally elusive unicorn. If we could get there, I'd be pretty happy. But the state has too many other negatives for me to support it openly.
I choose to pursue the unicorn that might finally convince others of the inherent disutility of the state.
 
Regardless of whatever system you have, it must be preserved by 'eternal vigilance'.

I ultimately voted no, but are we to assume that either "Limited government" or "anarcho-capitalism" must be a "unicorn", but not both?

I suppose that either might as well be a unicorn. People are lazy, and when they become complacent, governments will grow, even if none existed there in the first place.
 
There are no perfect solutions; there are only optimal solutions. I propose Switzerland not as a utopian ideal, but as an empirical example of limited government. Yes, limited government is possible. The Swiss have ideas and structures worthy of emulation.

It may be an example. But the population and territory are very small, and it’s not a nation made up of immigrants.
 
On what authority does he own goods? Undefined property boundaries and rights leave each person to determine what is his/hers. For example, if he leaves what he claims to be his bicycle outside is it on his land? What right does he have to go after someone who took it and claims that he now owns it? Possession is 9/10 of the law.

Right.There is no universal justification for individual claims to property ownership, so the distinction between aggressive and defensive use of force is arbitrary.
 
"Limited government" is inherently impossible because government cannot possibly limit itself. That's why America's constitutional experiment failed - the constitution is great as a piece of paper, but the mere establishment of a federal government with a legal monopoly on the use of force meant that it was an inherently unsustainable system, as there was no inherent reason why the government would be forced to abide by the constitution, as there was no entity capable to using force to police the government's actions. (And when such an entity, albeit a very imperfect one, did arise, the government claimed all manner of powers as "necessary" to maintain said monopoly on the use of force, which they may well have been. That created the precedent for de facto unlimited government).

What about Switzerland? It's a real-world experiment in limited government, of long standing. The federal government is forced to share power with the cantons, who jealously guard their prerogatives. True, there has been conflict between the federal goverment and the cantons (as in 1848), but not to such an extent as to vitiate the original premises of the arrangement. The cantons have not been debased into being mere enforcers of unfunded mandates handed down from the federal level—unlike the situations in the US, Canada and Australia. The federal level of government remains no more important than the cantonal. Statists would certainly regard its institution as being underdeveloped.

There are no perfect solutions; there are only optimal solutions. I propose Switzerland not as a utopian ideal, but as an empirical example of limited government. Yes, limited
government is possible. The Swiss have ideas and structures worthy of emulation.

If something like Switzerland is seriously the best we can hope for, I might as well give up.
 
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"Limited government" is inherently impossible because government cannot possibly limit itself. That's why America's constitutional experiment failed

wrong. the american experiment failed because didn't recognize the danger of having public schools. even jefferson established a public university. that was the fatal mistake of the founders.
 
If you're an anarchist who believes in no government then you can't believe in the principle of private property rights either. The government exists for the purpose of protecting life, liberty, and private property rights.

Protecting what? If those rights didn't precede the existence of government, then why isn't the government existing for the purpose of creating those rights?

Look, those rights can be defended individualistically, and were done so prior to the existence of any government, and in regions where the nominal government had no control. Do your rights disappear when you are locked in a warehouse with no government agents to protect them?

You sound like a naive economist arguing that the Federal Reserve has to exist because it exists to protect the money supply.
 
wrong. the american experiment failed because didn't recognize the danger of having public schools. even jefferson established a public university. that was the fatal mistake of the founders.

So when the Constitution limited the Federal government to certain explicit roles, and left all other powers to the States and to the people, didn't it reserve schooling to the states? Why did it expand in that area, then, if it hadn't already broken free from it's defining limitations?

Believing in a limited government was the mistake, the creation of govt schooling was merely a symptom.
 
So when the Constitution limited the Federal government to certain explicit roles, and left all other powers to the States and to the people, didn't it reserve schooling to the states? Why did it expand in that area, then, if it hadn't already broken free from it's defining limitations?

because the founders were not aware of its damaging nature. jefferson for example knew how damaging are central banks, and he warned about them and opposed them. but he wasn't aware that public schooling is just as dangerous.
 
wrong. the american experiment failed because didn't recognize the danger of having public schools. even jefferson established a public university. that was the fatal mistake of the founders.

So.... things like... " The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes", have nothing to do with the failure? Only the idea of public schools is at fault?

The idea of public schools is rooted in a much deeper problem. Taxation. Lay the seed of taxation, and it will grow like a cancer. This is empirical, testable and repeatable as far as I can tell.
 
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Poll answer: Yes, minarchy is a unicorn. Organizations finanaced by coercive force do not stay limited, no matter what name you slap on them, or ideology you try to attach to them.

A lot of minarchists claim even to support "voluntary taxation" which is a complete oxymoron. I remember the cognitive dissonance that goes along with these kinds of positions. It isn't enjoyable, lol.
 
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So.... things like... " The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes", have nothing to do with the failure? Only the idea of public schools is at fault?

government is funded by taxes as of today, so the time where people learn that taxation is improper will be a time when there are taxes. (taxes won't be abolished before people learn they should be abolished). if the founders were smart enough to not fuck up the educational system, a more significant number of people would've been able to see the obvious.
 
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