A Protestant View Of The Early Church

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A Protestant View Of The Early Church

Introduction

The word Protestant was first used at the Diet of Spires. There were at least four important Diets convened at Spires. It was at the second Diet of Spires in 1529, that the term Protestant was first used. Luther called his preachers, the Evangelici Viri—Evangelical Men—his Gospel preachers. So the Evangelicals, as they were called, protested at the Second Diet of Spires, because the Roman Catholic leaders were trying to curtail and revoke some of the concessions granted to the Lutherans at the first Diet of Spires. The word protest here, did not then have the negative connotation it now has, that of being against some law or principle. Protest then meant a setting forth a strong affirmation in defense of a position. Those who sought to affirm once again the concessions already gained at the first Diet were called Protestants. These men sought to keep the gains they had already won, such as the right to preach God’s holy Word, the right to do nothing against their conscience, or to do anything against the salvation of souls, nor to do anything against the last decree of Spires. They simply wanted to keep the gains they had already won from Roman Catholicism, at the first Diet of Spires. They emerged from this second Diet of Spires, as Evangelical Protestants.

The significance of this breakthrough was that those who dissented and separated from the Papal Dominion had made the first step toward the liberty to preach the Gospel. Others, down through church history had dissented and separated from the Papal Dominion, but they were put down, imprisoned, and massacred. Thus, the gains they made only lasted a short time. They were not able to continue as free Gospel preachers.

The second Diet of Spires was the first step to religious liberty, and the right to preach the Gospel and form churches based on the Bible and not on the papacy. Ever since, the Papal Dominion has sought to recover the dictatorship it once had.

On top of that, many leaders within Evangelical Protestantism in recent years have been working to help the Papal Dominion recover from the glorious Protestant Reformation. We call this effort the suicide of Non-Catholicism. In the period ad 400 to ad 1300, true Christianity existed outside the Papal Dominion. Yet many church historians allude to the popes of Rome, and the church they governed, as the Christian Church, and the overall system of Roman Catholicism as Christianity. In fact, professors, who all claimed to be Bible-believers, taught this view of church history in the various academic institutions I attended. In some cases, I repudiated what I was taught quickly; in other cases it took half a lifetime before I questioned what I had been taught. I saw that what I was taught concerning the Christian Church and Christianity was questionable at best, and simply wrong at worst.

I do not blame those who taught me what they did, for the simple reason, they taught me what they had been taught. Unless a person does some serious research, he, many times, simply perpetuates the errors he himself has been taught, by men who think they are teaching the truth.

This series of Tracts will present a brief overview of church history, with particular emphasis upon the last 200 years. A concerted effort has been made in the past 200 years to undo the truths of the Protestant Reformation, not just on the part of the Jesuits, and other Roman Catholic scholars; but on the part of those within Protestantism itself.

We have great difficulty in putting ourselves back into the position of the first Protestants, because religious liberty was then unknown. The Papacy still ruled most of Europe with an iron fist. So to gain some measure of freedom to preach the Gospel was a great triumph at that time.

We have even greater difficulty in putting ourselves back into the times before the Protestant Reformation. For back then it was even more difficult to dissent from the Papal System. Various Protestant writers have looked at those early Dissenters as the first Protestants of church history, even though that term had not come into vogue in those early times.

I majored in history at Asbury University and also took courses in church history at Trinity College, and in seminary, and in graduate school. I was taught the history of the popes of Rome from the earliest times of church history up until the time of the Reformation. All this history of the papacy was called “Christianity.” I now call it the history of the papacy, not the history of Christianity. I will allude to this distinction from time to time in this series of Tracts. It is a distinction that is lost upon millions of churchgoers today in North America. It was lost on me too for about half of my lifetime.

If one looks at the titles of church history books he will see what I mean: History of the Christian Church, C. H. Dryer; Story of the Christian Church, J. L. Hurlburt; Christianity through the Centuries, E. E. Cairns; Short History of the Christian Church, John Moncrief; History of the Expansion of Christianity, K. S. Latourette; A History of the Christian Church, P. Schaff, etc.

I cannot remember one professor that I sat under, presenting the history of the Tractarians. Yet, I believe the Tractarians set in motion the theological suicide of evangelical Protestantism. They certainly set in motion the modern ecumenical movement, although not one professor I sat under ever mentioned that truth.

Few thinking people will deny that great changes occurred within the once-Protestant denominations, across the board, in Europe and North America throughout the twentieth-century. The very term Protestant is all but gone, and the term non-Catholic is now used to describe the part of “Christendom” that has not yet joined Roman Catholicism.

We will look at the history of Protestantism throughout the centuries before the Reformation, concentrating, as we said, upon the last 200 years of church history. In this Tract we will give an overview of the first 400 years of church history with the emphasis upon those who dissented from the Papal System.



The Papal Dominion Is Not Christianity

I have heard many sermons on prophecy in my lifetime. In fact, I just heard a few more in the past few days, as of this writing. In all that time, I have only heard one sermon on church history. This sermon that dealt with quite a bit of church history, was preached by a man who had an earned doctorate, a man who had taught in a Christian college, and then later in a theological seminary, and had been pastor of several churches. He was a good speaker, and I believe a man of God, who had a good grasp of true theology, and also a heart for missions. In fact, he was involved in missionary activities, as well as all his other work. What he had to say, I would say, was what I had been taught in my church history classes. That is, although he said many good things, he apparently regarded much of the history of the Papal Dominion as the history of the Christian church, and of Christianity. This is exactly what I had been taught, too.

In other words, I have heard only one sermon that dealt with history, while I have heard many on prophecy. History is not considered important; prophecy is. Yet history affects prophecy profoundly. And we will prove that in subsequent Tracts. Even more importantly prophecy becomes history. Much of what was prophecy to Daniel the prophet is history to us. Historical events affect prophecy.

The sermons in the book of Acts are laden with historical references and historical events. The preachers of the early church, in the book of Acts, did not shun history. Why has the modern church almost completely ignored history? And wherever a solitary effort is made, even there history is skewed, and influenced by Papal historians.

I am sure that other men grasp truths more quickly than I do. For it took me years to come to see that much of what I had been taught in church history from the earliest times was greatly influenced by Papal historians. What I now call the Papal Church, or the Papal Dominion, (as the Papal Church expanded its power and geographical area), was called the Christian church, or Christianity, by the church historians I read, and by the men who taught me. For example, Philip Schaff calls his mammoth work of eight large tomes, The History of the Christian Church. Volume III is called Nicene and Post Nicene Christianity. Volume IV is called Mediaeval Christianity.

To understand the Protestant Dissenters from the Papal Dominion, we must understand not only the rise of the papacy, but the claims of the papacy, and the evil men who occupied the papal chair for centuries. What these evil men came to rule over was not the Christian Church, nor was it in any way, Christianity. But I was never taught such a truth in my lifetime, in any of the academic institutions I attended.

Church historians write away about “Christianity” while dealing with the various popes of Rome, and indeed, write about “Arian” Christianity when dealing with some countries. This means that men who denied that Christ is God, an elemental truth of Christianity, are all called Christians and what they taught and helped to spread is called “Christianity.” It is this constant drumbeat that drives such errors into the minds of those reading and being taught such anti-Christian drivel.

In this brief tract, we will look at what has been written about the early period of the papacy and how the papacy kept trying to expand its power during the first four hundred years of church history. Interspersed with the rise of the papacy, we will examine briefly some of the Dissenters from the Papal Dominion, who give some evidence of being much more Biblical than those they separated from, who persecuted them.



The Early Claims of the Papacy

In spite of what many Roman Catholic scholars have written, and in spite of what many non-Catholic scholars have written, the early days of the “church” after the book of Acts, are shrouded in obscurity, as far as the city of Rome is concerned. In fact, most of what is written about those early days is mainly legendary. However, since Roman Catholic scholars believe and teach that Peter was the first pope, and that from him, in an unbroken chain, all subsequent popes have followed in apostolic succession, it is very important to them that such myths are established as truly historical and factual. Their whole religious system depends upon such claims.

When one reads the most up-to-date statements about the papacy in this present day, the claim that the first pope was Peter, and the claim that the present pope follows in unbroken apostolic succession from Peter is sounded forth again and again. When pope Francis was being installed recently, it was repeated quite often that he was the successor of St. Peter. The pope is also referred to as “the supreme pontiff of the Universal Church,” and the “Bishop of Rome.”

The entire edifice of the papacy rests upon the frail supposition that the present pope is the true successor of St. Peter, and St. Peter was the first pope of Rome. The research done by Roman Catholic scholars to prove that Peter was in Rome and was the first pope of Rome are endless. Protestant scholars have also done research on these subjects. It is obvious that the outcome is much more important to Roman Catholics than to Protestants, for the whole Papal Dominion rests upon Peter being the first pope.

There are four basic problems connected to Peter and the papacy in Rome:



1. To document the long term presence of Peter in Rome is impossible.

2. To substantiate that there was a bishop of Rome in Peter’s lifetime is also impossible.

3. To show that the alleged office of Bishop was filled by other bishops, who succeeded Peter in that office, is also impossible.

4. The position of Antioch and other cities at that time precluded the prominence of Rome at such an early date.



1. There is no contemporary evidence that Peter was ever in Rome, much less that he was there for 25 years. Such evidence is drawn from writers more than two hundred years after the fact. For years Protestant scholars denied that Peter was ever in Rome. However, as Protestantism weakened, more and more concessions were made to the Roman Catholic position. As far as historical documentation is concerned, however, the statements of Jerome and Eusebius, respecting a twenty-five years’ episcopate of Peter in Rome, are made more than two centuries after the fact.

These statements come after hundreds of years have passed, and at the time the Bishop of Rome was working hard, to increase his jurisdiction over the “church.” Roman Catholics tend to take these statements at face value; historically Protestants did not.

2. The second problem is even more difficult to overcome: namely, that there was such a position as bishop of Rome in the first century of the church. According to many scholars, the origin of the episcopacy dates from some time in the second century, long after Peter’s death.

The present pope now goes under the title of the Bishop of Rome, and claims unbroken apostolic succession from Peter, the first bishop of Rome. There is simply no contemporary evidence that there was such a position as bishop of Rome, in Peter’s lifetime.

The inescapable truth is that the first two centuries of church history are completely silent on Peter’s supposed episcopacy in the church of Rome. Even the modern Roman Catholic scholar, H. Burn-Murdock, an apologist for the papacy, plainly declares in his well-researched work, The Development of the Papacy, that there is no early evidence to show that Peter was ever at anytime the bishop of the church in Rome. He states, “None of the writings of the first two centuries describe St. Peter as a bishop of Rome.”[1]

Here is a modern Roman Catholic scholar, writing on the very subject of the development of the papal office, in the middle of the twentieth-century, and he candidly admits there is no evidence at all from the first two centuries that Peter was ever the bishop of the church at Rome. (Yet, at least one of my professors thought that there was evidence that Peter was in Rome, although I am not sure if he believed he was ever bishop of Rome.)

Furthermore, as to the actual exercise of anything like the modern papal jurisdiction on the part of Peter, even Roman Catholic writers have been unable to discover the slightest vestige. So even if it can be proven that Peter may have been at one time in Rome, to prove that he was the first bishop of Rome is simply impossible.

3. A further difficulty is also impossible to overcome on the part of Roman Catholic scholars—the continued existence of the bishopric of Rome. For obviously, if one believes in Apostolic Succession, there can be no break at all between the bishop of Rome then and the bishop of Rome now. So there must be an unbroken chain of bishops since Peter up until the present man today who claims to be the successor of Peter, and the present bishop of Rome.

When one tries to find out the bishops of Rome who followed Peter, he is faced with another impossible task. As to immediate successors following Peter, as bishops of Rome, there simply is no documented registry. Not only can it not be proved that Peter was ever the first bishop of Rome, there is no contemporary proof of any of his immediate successors to that office.

A number of men, of course, are put forward as possible candidates, but any real historical validity to these claims is utterly non-existent. Eusebius, who wrote several centuries later, lists several names. Even that ancient writer is unable to reconcile the years, when these men were supposedly exercising their jurisdiction in Rome, with the names on the list. Some think that there is little reason to doubt the existence of these men, but to claim that they were the bishops of Rome is another matter entirely.

Clement is one of the known leaders in the early church. But notwithstanding his status in the church, the early tradition is much divided as to the time of his administration in Rome. Many claims are put forth by Roman Catholic scholars to try to make Clement one of the early successors of Peter in Rome. But in all the ancient writings of this period, there is no mention of the Bishop of Rome. He may have been a leader in the church but as to being a successor-bishop of Peter, there is not a word.

Certainly, as time goes on, the church in Rome begins to assume leadership in the Empire, but this is far from proving that the Bishop of Rome existed, or was to be regarded as the highest person in the whole church. The fact that certain men began to present Rome as the leading church means very little to a Protestant; for it shows that man, not Christ, is the one who is putting forth Rome as the leading church. It is also worthy of note that almost every writer who is called to support some germ of the papacy, also mentions the severe opposition to the claims of the leader in Rome, within the other churches of the Empire.

4. The strongest evidence comes from the Bible itself, and it is against Rome.

Indeed, the Bible militates strongly against Rome as the leading church. The Bible speaks of the churches at Jerusalem and at Antioch doing certain things, while it is completely silent on Rome holding conferences or sending out missionaries. The Bible speaks of the Christians who were dispersed from Jerusalem after the death of Stephen, who preached the Gospel at Antioch. Subsequently, Barnabas and Saul were sent out as missionaries from Antioch. Indeed, it was at Antioch that Paul rebuked Peter for his conduct contrary to the truth of the Gospel. It was at Antioch that Christ’s followers were first called Christians.

There is good evidence that Antioch became a central city from which the Gospel was sent out to various parts of the Roman Empire. There is evidence that Ignatius was the second bishop at Antioch until his martyrdom in ad 107.[2] Various councils were held at Antioch in those early days of the church. Antioch clearly eclipsed Rome at this time.

During the first few centuries of the church, there is no evidence that Antioch, Jerusalem, or Alexandria conceded to the Roman bishop, a jurisdiction over them or over other churches in the Empire. In fact, there is ample proof, even later in time, that the church in North Africa, and in places like Milan, repelled the claim that the Roman bishop had any ecclesiastical jurisdiction over them.[3]

The Bible also teaches that Peter was a married man, definitely contrary to the demonic teaching of enforced celibacy.[4]

The various churches outside Rome continued for many years to repel the claims of Rome to jurisdiction over them. McClintock and Strong stated that,



The Canons of the Nicene Council were, however, forged at Rome in the interest of the papacy at an early period, and the words Ecclesia Romana Semper Habuit Primatum (The Roman Church always has had the primacy) were inserted. At the Council of Chalcedon (451) the Roman legate, Paschasinus, read the Canon with the forged addition, but the council protested at once, and opposed the genuine version to the forged version of the Nicene Canon.[5]



The forgeries of the papacy started early and kept going for centuries. At this same council Pope Leo’s legates protested against the famous twenty-eighth Canon,



which elevated the patriarch of New Rome, or Constantinople, to official equality with the Pope. But this protest, as well as that of Leo’s successors, remained without effect.[6]



To this day the Eastern Orthodox Church does not recognize the Pope as its head, showing that the pope of Rome has not been recognized as the head of “Christendom” since long before the Reformation.



Early Protestors Against Rome

The papacy has no unbroken chain going all the way back to Peter. Likewise Protestantism has no unbroken chain going back to the early church. However, just like the claims of Rome, Protestants also have some claims of dissenters from Rome at a very early period. One of the difficulties concerning claims and counter claims is the fact that Rome at one time was a Biblical church. Protestants do not have to produce a starting time for a true Church at Rome, for the Bible does that. When Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans the church was Biblical.

The question then that few seem to want to answer today among both Protestants and Roman Catholics is when did Rome completely apostatize. Spurgeon said, “we were never in Rome,”[7] giving a back hand to the Reformers who came out of Rome. But to say that is too much, for Rome then is looked upon as bad from the beginning, which is simply not true. There was a time when the Roman Church was a true Biblical church.

So there is no need for dissenters to arise during the time that Rome remained faithful to the Bible. There were early groups that dissented from Rome but some of these were heretical, for they were dissenting from the truth at that time. So we must always distinguish between true dissenters from error and apostasy, and dissenters who themselves were heretics dissenting from the truth. Not all Dissenters are true believers.

The church in Rome continued for a number of years as a true church. Just when it became completely apostate is difficult now to determine. Usually it is conceded that the church at Rome remained orthodox in its beliefs until the time of Constantine. At least, Roman Catholics use fables connected to Constantine, to try to establish the papacy and the supremacy of Rome, over other churches. Protestants usually look at Constantine as the one who brought about the demise of the true church. At least he started the downgrade.

However, this pertains to the Roman Church. There is the whole issue of the British Church in the British Isles. (We will look at this subject in a later Tract.) There are accounts that Christianity spread to the British Isles very early in the history of the Church. There, a non-Roman church existed for several centuries. It continued more faithful to the Gospel, after most of Europe had fallen into the Roman Catholic apostasy. Patrick, Columba, and Columbanus, with others, sent missionaries back to Europe during the 5th and 6th centuries, to try to combat the Roman Catholic apostasy. They certainly form a part of the links in the chain of those who dissented from the Roman Catholic anti-Christian religion.

One of the earliest separations from Rome took place primarily in North Africa, where many churches refused to follow the dictates of Rome. This large group was called the Donatists.



The Donatists

In all my studies in church history I never learned anything about the Donatists. Perhaps my teachers felt that they did not have time to cover them, or perhaps they felt that they were not important enough to merit any reference to them. I do not know, but I do know that I never learned anything about them. Whatever I now know about them, I had to research on my own. The more I have learned about them the more important they have become to me and to my understanding of the early history of the church.

This movement involved the authority of the church at Rome, as well as the authority of the State. It was no small issue or movement. Augustine was deeply involved in this controversy. First of all, it broke out in North Africa where he labored, and second, he believed in the authority of the church of Rome, and believed that all churches must remain in connection to it and indeed in subjection to it. Third, he believed that the church should be united to the State, and not separate from the State.

The Donatists believed that the Church was to be separate from the State. This movement was probably the first in church history to teach a form of separation, albeit, a separation from the State. Augustine not only adopted a State-Church construct, he advocated the necessity of the State to put down all separatists from the Roman church, by force if necessary.[8]

It is truly amazing to me, to see how men down through church history, who are considered intellectual and theological giants, used the most far-fetched hermeneutical gymnastics to bolster their positions, especially where the use of murderous force was involved. When Augustine finally came to advocate deadly force to convince the Donatists of their “error,” he tried to justify it by an appeal to the Scriptures. He used the parable in Luke where it says, “compel them to come in” (14:23). He exhorted the hesitating officer of the law, to proceed in enforcing the law, because the Scripture said, compel them to come into the Church. He also added, the fires of hell to his argument, as the Inquisitors of Rome would do later, saying, it was better that some should perish in their own fires than that all should burn in Gehenna through “the desert of their impious dissension.”

The controversy has been described simply as a conflict between Separatism and Catholicism, between ecclesiastical purism and ecclesiastical eclecticism. In other words, what constitutes the Church, or what is Christianity? The Bible reveals the ekklesia, (from which the word ecclesiastical is derived) as a called-out group, from ek (“out of”), and kaleo (“to call”). Simply put: a called-out group. The epistles of the New Testament indicate that there is a difference between those called saints and the rest of humanity. The Donatist controversy revolved around the idea of the church as an exclusive regenerated community, and the idea of the church as the general Christendom of the State, and the people in it. This involved the issue of holiness and the issue of unity. Is the church to be noted for its holiness or its unity?[9]

The Donatist controversy resulted in Augustine completing his theory of the church, that it was a universal body from which there could be no schism or separation. The visible unity was all-important. There could be no deviation from it. This was to become the crystallized form adopted by the papacy, from then until now. There have been various dissenters within the Roman Catholic Church who have disagreed with this position, but it has held its own against all comers down through the history of Roman Catholicism to this present hour. It is now being defended and promoted by some who call themselves Evangelicals, Reformed, Charismatics, and Neo-orthodox.

The Donatists agreed with most of the teachings of the church. What precipitated the controversy was the widespread persecution of the church at this time. The actual roots of Donatism were in the preceding years before its rise. The church was dealing with those who had lapsed (denied the faith) during the times of persecution. How should a lapsed person be treated? As a true penitent who had failed, but who could now be restored once again to the bosom of the church? Or was he a renegade from the true faith, and the true church, who could never be restored to the church again?

The answer lay somewhere between these two extremes, and the answer, or answers, given to this issue precipitated the Donatist Controversy. The Donatists wanted a much more rigorous discipline of the lapsed; while most of the church was satisfied with a milder form of discipline.

Does the church consist of truly saved people, or is it merely a collection of religious people who do not take their Christianity very seriously? The Donatists believed, that when a person gave up his beliefs so easily, in order to escape persecution, this was not a good sign. If such people reapplied for membership, they should be made to understand the seriousness of their willingness to so quickly abandon their beliefs in order to stay alive.

Secundus, the primate of Numidia, led on by one Donatus of Casa Nigra, called for a more severe discipline for all who had fled from danger, or who had delivered up the Sacred Books to the persecutors. He advocated prompt exclusion, once and for all, of all who had succumbed to persecution.

Others headed up the milder party and advocated moderation and discretion. The tension between the two parties threatened to divide the church in North Africa as early as ad 305. The actual outbreak occurred in ad 311. A bishop was elected, who apparently had been consecrated by another bishop, Felix, who was called a Traditor—one who delivered up Sacred Books to the persecutors. There was a division in the church.

In ad 315, Donatus, a gifted man of fiery temperament, took over the leadership of the Stricter party. Each party then began to work to secure as many churches as they could on their side of the controversy. The whole North African church became embroiled in the controversy. Trials and excommunications took place at various locations.

Felix, the Traditor, was investigated and found innocent. The Donatists appealed from this ecclesiastical decision to the Emperor himself. The Emperor agreed to hear their appeal, but ruled against them. The whole matter then took a much more severe turn. The Emperor issued penal laws against the Donatists, deprived them of their churches, and ruled against their assembling. The State ruled against the churches.

The Donatists were not intimidated. The whole debate now descended into violence. Bands of fanatics roamed the countryside and all kinds of violence erupted on both sides. The whole matter then was put down by the military. Some of the Donatists were executed. Others were banished. Their churches were closed or confiscated. The Donatists looked upon all those who were killed as martyrs.

The Emperor realized his mistake. In ad 321 he granted liberty to the Donatists to follow their convictions. He also exhorted the larger Catholic party to patience and moderation. This helped to pacify matters for a time. However, when Constantine died, Constans, who succeeded him, did not favor treating the Donatists with kid gloves and widespread persecutions began again. There were battles in which some Donatists fought against the military. They were usually defeated in these battles. After thirteen years of bloodshed, Julian the Apostate became Emperor. The Donatists were pleased, for the Apostate would not recognize Roman Catholicism as the religion of the state. Thus in ad 361 they once again obtained full freedom to worship as they desired.

They took possession of their own churches again, repainted them and cleaned the walls with joy. Towards the end of the 4th century, North Africa was covered with their churches, and they had 400 bishops.

However, the problems were far from over. They had splits among themselves, succeeding emperors were not sympathetic toward them, and Augustine was working hard to unify the church once again. From this time on the cause of the Donatists began to decline. In 411 at a great arbitration meeting in Carthage, attended by 279 Donatist bishops and 286 Catholic bishops, the Donatists were defeated in their position.

Stringent new laws were also passed again against them. In ad 415, they were forbidden under pain of death to hold religious assemblies.

Although the Donatists were not completely wiped out by the Roman Catholic persecution, the whole Church in North Africa was. The Vandals in ad 482 overran North Africa. The Arian Vandals ended the controversy by a general destruction of the whole church. Yet the Donatists continued to survive as a distinct party down to the sixth century in other areas.

From this brief sketch we can see that the Donatists were not heretics, they believed the Bible and all the important doctrines of the Christian faith. They were not immoral. Some of the charges made against them, come from their enemies, and so must be regarded as unfounded and exaggerated.

The schism began in differences about church discipline, concerning those who had lapsed from the faith during persecution. The problem was widened because of the attitude of the Catholic Church toward them, and the treatment meted out to them. Certainly there was fanaticism among the Donatists, but not all were fanatics by any means. Fanaticism was present among their enemies as well.

While some scholars blame the Donatists for causing schism in the church, others see the same issues today. Does any church have the right to claim it is the only true church, and the right to force all others to join it, under pain of death? Few modern Christians would agree with such a position.

The issue that arose then still arises today: what comprises the membership of the church? Can anyone join? Even those who do not believe the truth? Does any church have such a monopoly of the truth so as to be considered the one true church on Earth?

Even more to the point today, is a religious body that teaches and practices all kinds of falsehoods, worthy of the name Christian? So the Donatists early on, showed the impossibility of any one institution being so perfect, that it has the right to enforce all other Christians to belong to it under pain of death.

The Donatists can be classed in that long line of Christians who refused to knuckle under to the threats and persecution of a religious body. As such, their stand is to be regarded as part of the long struggle of Christians, who desire to worship the Lord according to the Scriptures and not according to men, no matter how important those men may think themselves to be.

It also shows, that as the church moved further and further away from the time of the apostles, men began to see a difference in the church of their time and that of the apostles. Ever since, true Christians have sought to show that there are differences in what is called the ancient church and that of the apostles. Throughout church history protests have been made in order to show the difference between the ancient church and the church of the apostles.

As time went on these differences took on greater and greater significance until, what claimed to be the one true church on Earth, was completely and officially apostate, and not a Christian church at all.



Jovinian

Albert Henry Newman, the Southern Baptist Church historian, mentions a dissenting movement that began in the fifth century. He claims this movement was started by Jovinian, a contemporary of Jerome. Little is known about him, but apparently he did not like some of the things that were being brought into the church at that time and opposed them.

Jovinian was one of the earliest Reformers before the Reformation, according to McClintock and Strong. He was an Italian, but whether of Milan, or Rome, is not now known. He taught in both cities and gained a number of followers. He opposed asceticism, which was widely practiced and advocated by the church “fathers.” It is hard now to find out exactly what he taught because Roman Catholic writers have misrepresented him. He taught that all believers share a common life in Christ through faith in Him, and that those who follow a monastic or celibate lifestyle were no more acceptable to God for so doing. This was a profound challenge to the budding monasticism and celibacy, which was then being promoted as a more holy and pure way of life. He also did not elevate Mary as the Roman Church was beginning to do at that time. He taught that good works did not merit salvation. Although he spoke out against such heresies, he himself, remained single, and more or less followed a monastic lifestyle.

He first taught his doctrines in Milan, but was vehemently opposed by Ambrose in that city. He then went to Rome, which was one of the last places to receive the ascetic fanaticism. (Again this shows that Rome maintained a more Biblical system of truth longer than some other parts of the Empire.)

Many parts of the Empire were darkened by monasticism, particularly the Eastern half. Parts of the Western Empire were also being overrun with monasticism, before it finally came into the city of Rome. In Rome, Jovinian had good success in promulgating his doctrines. He, along with several of his main supporters, was condemned by a unanimous decision of the clergy in Rome. In Milan he and his followers were excommunicated as authors of a “new heresy, and of blasphemy,” and were forever expelled from the church in ad 390.

From what can be gathered about the teachings of Jovinian, there was nothing heretical about them. They were not in any way blasphemous, but rather, seemed to be much more in accord with Scripture, than the heresies that were then beginning to take root in the church of the Roman Empire. The reigning bishop of Rome, Syricus, confirmed the condemnation and excommunication of Jovinian, and the Roman Emperor of that time, Honorius, enacted penal laws against the Jovinians. Jovinian himself was exiled to the desolate island of Boa, and died there in ad 406.

Jovinian teachings continued to spread even after his excommunication and exile. Some nuns left their nunneries and got married. This caused a great stir in the city of Rome. So the “church” in order to crush this “monstrous teaching” called upon Augustine to help. As someone has said, they used “the good Augustine, a tool of bad men,” to write in defense of monasticism and asceticism and celibacy. In his Treatises on celibacy, Augustine, by wily sophistry, sought to reconcile the prevailing absurdities in the church to the teachings of holy Scripture. Augustine, however, on this occasion was not the man to be the church’s champion. Such a man was the bad-tempered Jerome.

Jerome has been described as the man,



who by various learning, by voluble pen, as well as by (bad) temper, and boundless arrogance, and a blind devotion to whatever the “church” sanctioned, was well qualified to do the necessary work of cajoling the simple, inflaming the fanatical, of frightening the timed, of calumniating the innocent, in a word of quashing, if it could be quashed, all enquiry concerning authorized errors and abuses. The church right or wrong, was to be justified, the objector, or (protester) innocent or guilty, was to be crushed. And Jerome would scruple nothing could he accomplish so desirable an end.[10]



Jerome vehemently opposed the Jovinians. However, notwithstanding the attacks of the church’s three prominent writers of that period, Augustine, Jerome, and Ambrose, the teachings of Jovinian, instead of dying out, continued to spread and to be favorably accepted in different parts of the Roman Empire. This fact made the work of Vigilantius much easier. Neander, the great German historian, does not hesitate to rank the services of Jovinian so high as to consider him worthy of place by the side of Luther.



Vigilantius

Vigilantius is another early Protestant, who sought to oppose and correct the abuses in the church of his day. He was a presbyter in the early part of the fifth century. He began to oppose the errors in worship and in morals beginning to overwhelm the church at that time. He was a native of present-day France, brought up to follow the business of Inn-Keeping; but in ad 395, he visited Paulinus of Nola, and immediately after, he was ordained a presbyter. Paulinus recommended him to Jerome. He visited Jerome in ad 396, and he disturbed Jerome.

Jerome had two weaknesses in his personality. An inordinate pride because of his learning; and an exalted opinion of his own orthodoxy, and Vigilantius managed to disturb him about both. Jerome was enamored with Origen. Origen held many strange and heretical positions on doctrine. Vigilantius issued an epistle condemning Jerome’s Origenism. In response, Jerome compared him to Judas, and called him an ass.[11]

Eight years after Vigilantius left Jerusalem, a presbyter named Riparius notified Jerome that his adversary was teaching very questionable doctrines and disturbing the entire Gallic church. Jerome then renewed his attacks on him, but without much success, for Vigilantius was supported by many of the clergy and laity, and was even protected by some bishops. No answer was given to Jerome’s abusive attack, and Vigilantius drops out of view at this time. Some think that he may have died. Others believe that the barbarian invasions of Gaul at this time overshadowed the paper quarrels of churchmen, and they ceased to be recorded.

The views Vigilantius set forth are not preserved in enough detail to furnish a complete system of theology. But we can gather several important truths that he set forth at that juncture in church history. He attacked,



the veneration of martyrs and relics. He doubted the genuineness of the relics, and condemned the bearing about of dead men’s bones enswathed in costly wrappings. He considered the invocation of martyrs as a deifying of the creature and a step back into heathenism. He maintained that their intercession could not be relied upon, since their prayers on their own behalf were not always answered. He held that the miraculous power, with which relics were supposed to be endowed, had not extended to that time. He opposed and condemned the burning of candles at the shrines of the martyrs on the ground that the martyrs had the light of the Lamb and had no need of such illuminations.[12]



In the field of morals he condemned priestly celibacy and monasticism. He maintained that there is no distinction of morality into higher and lower classes, that true morality is binding upon all. He did not possess the learning or ability of Jovinian, but sought to rid the church of its heresies and unscriptural practices. Although his work fades out in Gaul at that time, it is interesting to note the revival of true teaching that later arose in France under the Henricans.

- See more at: http://trinityfoundation.org/latest.php#sthash.CvMjtSZd.dpuf
 
In spite of what many Roman Catholic scholars have written, and in spite of what many non-Catholic scholars have written, the early days of the “church” after the book of Acts, are shrouded in obscurity, as far as the city of Rome is concerned. In fact, most of what is written about those early days is mainly legendary.

This is what Christians have to understand about the claims of some churches out there.
 
Sola, the reformers just went nuts with revenge and hatred against the Catholic church and reinterpreted just about everything the early church taught. The war between the two is well understood, but changing and rearranging the word of God to say something it isn't--is again all together something different. No one is glorified and chosen in this life and no one is once saved always saved. That's a message that's straight out of hell causing people to be complacent and giving them a license to sin all the more. NEVER did the early church teach such heresies because that's not what the word of God is saying. The reformers pushed that doctrine and that's why so many believe it today.
 
About a hundred years before Luther there was, Jan Hus. We are soon to celebrate 600 years from the time of his death, by fire.

Luther is said to have claimed to be a "Hussite".

Both men taught the common man about the abuses of Rome. Luther was not excommunicated for quite some time after the initial Theses were discovered.

Neither man changed or rearranged Scripture. They were deeply committed to teaching Scripture, Luther working diligently to translate the bible into German.

When a soul comes to faith by the power of the Trinity, when justified and sanctified, the promise of the bible is that this soul will be glorified. The Lord loses no one. We are justified once and forever by the Just One.

Reformers who confess the three Creeds, the Westminster Confession, the Belgic Conf. and Heidelberg Catechism will seek to do the will of the Lord every day. They are committed to repentance, confession and turning from all temptation to sin. A true believe would never say they have a license to sin, never.
 
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About a hundred years before Luther there was, Jan Hus. We are soon to celebrate 600 years from the time of his death, by fire.

Luther is said to have claimed to be a "Hussite".

Both men taught the common man about the abuses of Rome. Luther was not excommunicated for quite some time after the initial Theses were discovered.

Neither man changed or rearranged Scripture. They were deeply committed to teaching Scripture, Luther working diligently to translate the bible into German.

When a soul comes to faith by the power of the Trinity, when justified and sanctified, the promise of the bible is that this soul will be glorified. The Lord loses no one. We are justified once and forever by the Just One.

Reformers who confess the three Creeds, the Westminster Confession, the Belgic Conf. and Heidelberg Catechism will seek to do the will of the Lord every day. They are committed to repentance, confession and turning from all temptation to sin. A true believe would never say they have a license to sin, never.

The Reformers are right to the extent they agree with the One, Holy, Apostolic (Orthodox) Church. Excellent book on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1936270137...qmt=b&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_7r9an5v77h_b :) ~hugs~
 
About a hundred years before Luther there was, Jan Hus. We are soon to celebrate 600 years from the time of his death, by fire.

Luther is said to have claimed to be a "Hussite".

Both men taught the common man about the abuses of Rome. Luther was not excommunicated for quite some time after the initial Theses were discovered.

Neither man changed or rearranged Scripture. They were deeply committed to teaching Scripture, Luther working diligently to translate the bible into German.

When a soul comes to faith by the power of the Trinity, when justified and sanctified, the promise of the bible is that this soul will be glorified. The Lord loses no one. We are justified once and forever by the Just One.

Reformers who confess the three Creeds, the Westminster Confession, the Belgic Conf. and Heidelberg Catechism will seek to do the will of the Lord every day. They are committed to repentance, confession and turning from all temptation to sin. A true believe would never say they have a license to sin, never.

Respectfully here Louise--Romans 8:30 explains it all in one sentence here: 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Paul explains here that we are predestinated because we are called. We are then justified because we heard the call and then glorified. Glorification can not happen in this life, only after death can anyone be glorified and perfected.

Even Jesus told us that he wasn't perfected until the third day of his resurrection here:

13: 32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected

Philipians 3:20-21 talks about the changes that will take place when believers in Christ are glorified: "But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself." Ultimately, the body of every Christian will become like Christ's body, fully glorified in eternity.

It's said by those taught in the reformed doctrine that "a true believer would not believe that they have a license to sin". This is the mantra of those caught in that doctrine, but testimony after testimony tells another story that those who believe they can not lose their salvation have far less conscience convicting them of wrong doing and sin in their daily lives. They are complacent in thought and deed because they believe nothing they say or do will cause them to lose their salvation. This is not what God said in His word. All throughout His word we are given warnings to "remain" and "abide" in Christ in this life because this life is a test of our faith and a proving ground for our belief in everything we say and do unto others.

Those warnings Gods word gives are not simply something that causes us to lose rewards in heaven--those warnings are given because we can lose our salvation in Christ by continuously doing and saying things to others opposite the will of God. Hebrews 6:4

The only way to retain our salvation in this life is continuously remain and abide in Christ by doing the will of God. God gives us space and time to stumble, but at some point in a believers life--if they do not return, God will turn them over to a reprobate mind. You can't lose what you never had to begin with, so God is warning us--to stay on the path for this reason.

This is why I left the Protestant church to begin with is because I saw the errors in their doctrine and teaching. I'm sure there are some very loving committed Christians in the protestant faith, but if one comes to see the truth in flawed doctrine--why would one choose to remain there?
 
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Respectfully here Louise--Romans 8:30 explains it all in one sentence here: 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You are not stating anything out of step with the Reformed Faith here, though I have a feeling a massive strawman will immediately follow this citation. At no point has Louise suggested that an effectual call is not included in the process from predestination to glory.

Paul explains here that we are predestinated because we are called. We are then justified because we heard the call and then glorified. Glorification can not happen in this life, only after death can anyone be glorified and perfected.

You are arguing against the erroneous Wesleyan doctrine of sinless perfection here, not Reformed theology. Methodists of the Wesleyan/Arminian persuasion are not in communion with the Reformed because of precisely what you are describing here. You are essentially arguing against a position that no one in this conversation holds.

Even Jesus told us that he wasn't perfected until the third day of his resurrection here:

13: 32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected

Philipians 3:20-21 talks about the changes that will take place when believers in Christ are glorified: "But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself." Ultimately, the body of every Christian will become like Christ's body, fully glorified in eternity.

You are still not arguing against anything stated here, either by Louise or anybody else.

It's said by those taught in the reformed doctrine that "a true believer would not believe that they have a license to sin". This is the mantra of those caught in that doctrine, but testimony after testimony tells another story that those who believe they can not lose their salvation have far less conscience convicting them of wrong doing and sin in their daily lives.

Nope, that "mantra" as you call it is a factual description of the doctrine of the Reformed Faith. The biggest mistake that Rome makes is conflating Justification and Sanctification, the two concepts denote different parts of the process of regeneration, proceeding from spiritual rebirth to an ongoing correction in the lawful obedience of the believer. You are conflating the testimony of Antinomian heretics (whom Luther himself denounced quite forcefully) who think that saving faith can stand against God's Laws, this is not the Reformed position, and historically the Reformed Church has excommunicated people for holding this position.

They are complacent in thought and deed because they believe nothing they say or do will cause them to lose their salvation.

Losing one's salvation is a nonsensical concept that Rome has cleaved to since Trent when they elevated Jesuit Semi-Pelagian errors to binding dogmatic statements, separating themselves from the historic Christian faith. 2 Peter 1:10 is relevant on this point for as we read "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:", election is unfailing, but it is confirmed in sanctification, which is where the regenerate believer, by the help of The Holy Spirit, does the works of righteousness and gains the sense of what God has preordained. The sins of God's elect are counted as backsliding, and are chastised accordingly to bring the believer as the rod does a straying sheep (Psalms 23:4). This is not the same thing as the doctrine of "sinless perfection" or the antinomian Baptist concept of "Once Saved, Always Saved", but is perfectly conformed to scripture and the doctrine of the Perseverance Of The Saints as originally defined by Augustine of Hippo.

This is not what God said in His word. All throughout His word we are given warnings to "remain" and "abide" in Christ in this life because this life is a test of our faith and a proving ground for our belief in everything we say and do unto others.

While your word usage is getting dangerously close to Pelagian errors, we are indeed to remain and abide in Christ, and we do not accomplish this apart from the freely given grace of God. (Ephesians 2:8)

Those warnings Gods word gives are not simply something that causes us to lose rewards in heaven--those warnings are given because we can lose our salvation in Christ by continuously doing and saying things to others opposite the will of God. Hebrews 6:4

For all reading this particular passage, there are a couple things to take into account. First, the preceding verse of Hebrews 6:3 states "And this will we do, if God permit.", which should emphasize that the works of sanctification are not man working his righteousness apart from God, but in synergistic cooperation with him once regenerate. Second, the word used to describe those that have fallen away are "those who were once ENLIGHTENED", this is different from one who is spiritually regenerate, but rather one who has come to a human understanding of the faith and has had a taste of The Holy Ghost but have not been spiritually reborn. Human faith is a concept that dovetails with the parable of the wheat and tares noted in Matthew 13:24-30. There are those in the church whom, like Judas Iscariot, reside in the church and are not elect, and will confirm their enmity with God at some point. It is also interesting to note that Paul likewise uses a harvesting analogy to a very similar effect in Hebrews 6:8, not long after the verse under consideration here.

The only way to retain our salvation in this life is continuously remain and abide in Christ by doing the will of God. God gives us space and time to stumble, but at some point in a believers life--if they do not return, God will turn them over to a reprobate mind. You can't lose what you never had to begin with, so God is warning us--to stay on the path for this reason.

You've just contradicted your previous statement regarding "losing one's salvation" by stating "You can't lose what you never had to begin with", this is precisely what Reformed theology teaches, that those who are not elect are not given the gifts of salvation. Furthermore, we retain the sense of salvation by abiding in Christ with the help of The Holy Spirit, we never abide in Christ of ourselves alone, for original/ancestral sin does not fall away with any sanctifying works.

This is why I left the Protestant church to begin with is because I saw the errors in their doctrine and teaching. I'm sure there are some very loving committed Christians in the protestant faith, but if one comes to see the truth in flawed doctrine--why would one choose to remain there?

There is no "Protestant Church", there is a "Reformed Faith", there is also a distinct "Lutheran Faith", a "Baptist Faith", and a whole slew of heretical offshoots of the Anabaptist fanatics that sprang up close to the same time as the Magistrate Reformers, but were otherwise a wholly distinct movement in the Radical Reformation. If you've adopted the Roman Church's view of history (I assume so since you haven't said so in so many words here), your confusion on this point is logical, as they tend to suppress the truth on a number of key historical events, particularly in how they misrepresent the Reformed position by conflating it with the Radicals.

What church did you come out of specifically? I ask primarily because it will give me a basis for understanding precisely how you came to this position. I am not currently in communion with any Baptist, Lutheran or Mainline Presbyterian Church due to corrupt teachings regarding sacramental theology and violations of the regulative principles of the Westminster and Reformed Confessions and Catechisms that have cropped up in the past 150 years in the case of the latter group . I myself was a communicate Roman Catholic for about 5 years, and I left the church primarily because of pervasive problems with abuses by the clergy that ended up touching my family, though I later studied the history of the persecution of the students of Michael Baius and Cornelius Jansen (Jansenists) and came to understand that the Roman church that produced such brilliant Augustinian theologians such as Anselm and Thomas Aquinas died at the Council of Trent and took the road of Ultramontanist errors, which accounts for the distorted view that they hold regarding the relationship between the clergy and the congregation.
 
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On the topic of the OP:

As much as I concur with Sola_Fide regarding the nature of Justification, him and I 100% part ways regarding the matter of the Donatist schismatics. The fact that he sides with them against Augustine betrays a very acute ignorance of the nature of what the Donatists actually believed and taught, in big part due to a false view that Roman Catholic Church government was a factor in the early church prior to 7th century, and also due to the distorted view of church government itself that arises from holding a Congregational Polity viewpoint, which is universally held by Baptists.

Donatists held such a hyper-moralistic view of the clergy, resulting in their opposition to reconfirming bishops that had lapsed in the fact of persecution (this standard would have made Peter's reinstatement as an apostle following his 3-time denial of Christ impossible, just for the record), that they actually believed that the bishop/teaching elder of the church acted as a mediator. Augustine countered this by stating, rightly, that there is no mediator between God and man apart from Christ. Donatist errors, and not Augustine's views of ecclesiology (which were admittedly flawed and leaned towards what is now recognized as Episcopal prelacy), are the precursor to the absurd doctrine that the Papacy is Christ's vicar, and is far more in line with the prelacy view of the clergy that is rampant in the Roman Magisterium at present. Here are some select readings from Augustine regarding the controversy:

Augustine (354-430): Here the very painful thought occurs to me that I should remind you that Parmenian, who was once a bishop of the Donatists, had the audacity to state in one of his letters that the bishop is the mediator between the people and God. You can see that they are putting themselves forward in the place of the bridegroom; they are corrupting the souls of those others with a sacrilegious adultery. This is no mean case of presumption, one that would strike me as totally incredible had I not read it. You see, if the bishop is the mediator between the people and God, it follows that we must take it there are many mediators, since there are many bishops. So then, in order to read the letter of Parmenian, let us censor the letter of the apostle Paul where he says, For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tm 2:5). But between whom is he the mediator, if not between God and his people? So between God and his body, because the Church is his body. Truly monstrous, therefore, is that pride which has the audacity to set up the bishop as mediator, guilty of the adulterous fallacy of claiming for itself the marriage of Christ. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., The Works of Saint Augustine, Newly Discovered Sermons, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 198.52 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), p. 220.

And then as Augustine went on to say a little later in the same sermon: “And that is what these people are neither afraid nor ashamed to say, that the bishop is a mediator between God and men. Sure, that man is a mediator, but in the party of Donatus, to block the way, not to lead the way, as Donatus himself did; he introduced his own name, you see, to close off the road to Christ.” John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., The Works of Saint Augustine, Newly Discovered Sermons, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 198.55 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), p. 222.

Augustine (354-430): Let not, however, things like these disturb thee, my beloved son. For it is foretold to us that there must needs be heresies and stumbling-blocks, that we may be instructed among our enemies; and that so both our faith and our love may be the more approved,--our faith, namely, that we should not be deceived by them; and our love, that we should take the utmost pains we can to correct the erring ones themselves; not only watching that they should do no injury to the weak, and that they should be delivered from their wicked error, but also praying for them, that God would open their understanding, and that they might comprehend the Scriptures. For in the sacred books, where the Lord Christ is made manifest, there is also His Church declared; but they, with wondrous blindness, while they would know nothing of Christ Himself save what is revealed in the Scriptures, yet form their notion of His Church from the vanity of human falsehood, instead of learning what it is on the authority of the sacred books. NPNF1: Vol. IV, The Correction of the Donatist, Chapter 1, §2.

It should likewise be noted that in addition to holding a heretical viewpoint regarding the nature and function of church officers, the Donatists playing a pivotal role in stirring up such controversy in the African church that it can be rightly inferred that they helped the onslaught of Arianism to overrun North Africa. Sowers of needless discontent and upheaval for purposes of sectarianism should not be excused, let alone celebrated and followed. In contrast to some Presbyterian and Reformed Churches that have embraced Baptists as brothers, the Covenanters were never so inclined, precisely because of viewpoints like this and where it often leads. While I encourage any and all Baptists to become reformed in their thinking and to move away from the gross legalism and antinomianism that is rampant in Baptist churches, this alone is insufficient for groups for claiming to be Protestant, for affinity with the Donatism is part and parcel of the anarchistic tendencies of the Anabaptist movement that no Magistrate Reformed Christian should encourage.
 
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On the topic of the OP:

As much as I concur with Sola_Fide regarding the nature of Justification, him and I 100% part ways regarding the matter of the Donatist schismatics. The fact that he sides with them against Augustine betrays a very acute ignorance of the nature of what the Donatists actually believed and taught, in big part due to a false view that Roman Catholic Church government was a factor in the early church prior to 7th century, and also due to the distorted view of church government itself that arises from holding a Congregational Polity viewpoint, which is universally held by Baptists.

Donatists held such a hyper-moralistic view of the clergy, resulting in their opposition to reconfirming bishops that had lapsed in the fact of persecution (this standard would have made Peter's reinstatement as an apostle following his 3-time denial of Christ impossible, just for the record), that they actually believed that the bishop/teaching elder of the church acted as a mediator. Augustine countered this by stating, rightly, that there is no mediator between God and man apart from Christ. Donatist errors, and not Augustine's view of ecclesiology (which were flawed), are the precursor to the absurd doctrine that the Papacy is Christ's vicar, and is far more in line with the prelacy view of the clergy that is rampant in the Roman Magisterium at present. Here are some select readings from Augustine regarding the controversy:







It should likewise be noted that in addition to holding a heretical viewpoint regarding the nature and function of church officers, the Donatists playing a pivotal role in stirring up such controversy in the African church that it can be rightly inferred that they helped the onslaught of Arianism to overrun North Africa. Sowers of needless discontent and upheaval for purposes of sectarianism should not be excused, let alone celebrated and followed. In contrast to some Presbyterian and Reformed Churches that have embraced Baptists as brothers, the Covenanters were never so inclined, precisely because of viewpoints like this and where it often leads. While I encourage any and all Baptists to become reformed in their thinking and to move away from the gross legalism and antinomianism that is rampant in Baptist churches, this alone is insufficient groups for claiming to be Protestant, for affinity with the Donatists is part and parcel of the anarchistic tendencies of the Anabaptist movement that no Magistrate Reformed Christian should encourage.

It's difficult because not all Baptist churches are the same. I am a confessional Baptist. We hold to the 1689 LBCF (and "holding" is a very nuanced term there because I have some differences with it). Calvin and some others made the mistake of lumping all Baptists together in with the Anabaptists and other radicals during the reformation. Confessional Baptists are different in that we are Reformed and think that a low-church view of things actually fits quite nicely with Scripture. But during the Magesterial Reformation, we were persecuted along with other heretics.
 
Respectfully here Louise--Romans 8:30 explains it all in one sentence here: 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Among my favorite passages of Scripture are Romans 8:28-39.

In verse 39 we read, "Nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The Creator does not give the creature the final say.

Also, please read HU's responses, as they mirror my own beliefs. I am not against you personally, Terry, just wanting the true teaching of the Reformed faith to be clearly represented, as I know you want the Eastern Orthodox to be as well.
 
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It's difficult because not all Baptist churches are the same. I am a confessional Baptist. We hold to the 1689 LBCF (and "holding" is a very nuanced term there because I have some differences with it). Calvin and some others made the mistake of lumping all Baptists together in with the Anabaptists and other radicals during the reformation. Confessional Baptists are different in that we are Reformed and think that a low-church view of things actually fits quite nicely with Scripture. But during the Magesterial Reformation, we were persecuted along with other heretics.

I am aware of the London Baptist Confession of 1689, which confirms the Low Church polity of the Church of England, and your differences with it may well have informed my assumptions of your position, since showing sympathy towards the Donatist Schismatics is a hallmark of Independent Baptist government and other modes of congregational polity. I am sure there may be some sympathizers of the Donatists in Low Church circles, but I have yet to encounter any of it. I am a strict adherent to the Solemn League and Covenant, and I likewise view it as binding upon all American Presbyterian Churches that trace their lineage to it, hence I don't presently associate with the PCA, OPC or RPCNA or attend worship in their churches, though I often cite their literature insofar as it is in agreement with said subordinate standards.

I do make a distinction between the Baptists and Anabaptists in terms of their historicity and where they differ theologically, but both share a hostility to the correct sacramental system of the New Testament (they claim it on scriptural grounds, wrongly I might add), particularly their opposition to the covenant-based function of baptism, which is why they deny it to their children. This viewpoint is, in some respects, based on Donatist errors regarding the validity of baptism if it is rightly administered, as the outward sign and the inward spiritual seal work independent of any sin in the agent of the outward elements in play. This is why the Magistrate Reformers did not re-baptize Roman converts, and why no validly baptized person (even if done by illicit authority) should be re-baptized.
 
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One of the greatest products and witness of the actual Reformed (Protestant) spiritual and church unity, was achieved by the Westminster Divines by their meeting of minds, during the long formulation of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" in England, beginning back in 1566.

The saints who were providentially involved in this work, not only affected against the oppressive Royal Rule of England, by establishing the principle of church versus State; exposed and rejectred various heresies, and achieved a fruitful accordance between the Presbyterians and the Independents (Congregationalists), but succeeded in issuing forth a confession of Christian faith, that has to this day, not been denied as being the very heart, and indeed a beneficial witness, from and to every regenerated believer, who has been spiritually resurrected into the invisible and Elect Church of Jesus Christ.

I suggest a study of the "History of the Westminster Assembly of Divines" authored by William M. Hetherington, (available at Still Waters Revival Books), which will provide and encourage all who confess the Reformed Faith, into truly scriptural grounds for union/communion with each other.

Also, this is important reading for those who do not actually understand the Reformed Faith, who often misrepresent the actual beliefs of those who confess such beliefs.
 
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Make that one, holy, catholic (universal) and apostolic (which is in the creed we say every Lord's Day) and we have a deal. :-)

Enjoy the Lord's Day, HB.

It's true that that is directly from the Creed. :) But my point is I was being very specific to the Eastern Catholic Church (EOC). The Latin Rite (Roman Catholic) Church is schismatic (some say "heretical", but I'm not prepared to go that far), though right on many things.
 
It's true that that is directly from the Creed. :) But my point is I was being very specific to the Eastern Catholic Church (EOC). The Latin Rite (Roman Catholic) Church is schismatic (some say "heretical", but I'm not prepared to go that far), though right on many things.

The Reformed don't use the uppercase "Catholic" when describing the holy catholic church precisely to separate ourselves from the errors of the Latin Rite. We do this also because we don't conflate one particular church (Rome) with the whole Christian communion (this we argue is one of the key elements in Rome's error in asserting their bishop's dominion over all others), since said communion is made up of many particularly churches, much as the entire Orthodox League is made up of the Russian Church, Greek Church, Romanian Church, and so on.
 
You are not stating anything out of step with the Reformed Faith here, though I have a feeling a massive strawman will immediately follow this citation. At no point has Louise suggested that an effectual call is not included in the process from predestination to glory.

Louise stated that we are "justified once". This is true, but we are only justified and glorified after death--being proven, tried and then chosen by God. No one is justified and glorified in this life. We are only called in this life to a purpose in Christ and tested throughout to the very end of it--only after death is anyone justified and glorified.

You are arguing against the erroneous Wesleyan doctrine of sinless perfection here, not Reformed theology. Methodists of the Wesleyan/Arminian persuasion are not in communion with the Reformed because of precisely what you are describing here. You are essentially arguing against a position that no one in this conversation holds.

The OP holds the position that we are chosen in this life and once saved always saved.

You are still not arguing against anything stated here, either by Louise or anybody else.

Then you're not familiar with the OP's history of belief then either.


Nope, that "mantra" as you call it is a factual description of the doctrine of the Reformed Faith. The biggest mistake that Rome makes is conflating Justification and Sanctification, the two concepts denote different parts of the process of regeneration, proceeding from spiritual rebirth to an ongoing correction in the lawful obedience of the believer. You are conflating the testimony of Antinomian heretics (whom Luther himself denounced quite forcefully) who think that saving faith can stand against God's Laws, this is not the Reformed position, and historically the Reformed Church has excommunicated people for holding this position.

I'm not making an argument for or against the church of Rome here either. I'm not RC, and for my own reasons.


Losing one's salvation is a nonsensical concept that Rome has cleaved to since Trent when they elevated Jesuit Semi-Pelagian errors to binding dogmatic statements, separating themselves from the historic Christian faith. 2 Peter 1:10 is relevant on this point for as we read "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:", election is unfailing, but it is confirmed in sanctification, which is where the regenerate believer, by the help of The Holy Spirit, does the works of righteousness and gains the sense of what God has preordained. The sins of God's elect are counted as backsliding, and are chastised accordingly to bring the believer as the rod does a straying sheep (Psalms 23:4). This is not the same thing as the doctrine of "sinless perfection" or the antinomian Baptist concept of "Once Saved, Always Saved", but is perfectly conformed to scripture and the doctrine of the Perseverance Of The Saints as originally defined by Augustine of Hippo.

Perseverance of the saints denotes that we can have eternal security in this life, which is not what the word of God teaches anywhere because only God can judge the hearts of man and is why you will not find anything written in the word where we are guaranteed eternal security in this life. From the beginning of the NT to the end of Revelation--all we are given is the "HOPE"--"that it might be" or it "may be". Anything you interpret as a guarantee of salvation is a flawed interpretation--as in Romans 8:30, which the Reformed believers have taken out of context to mean what they want it to.


While your word usage is getting dangerously close to Pelagian errors, we are indeed to remain and abide in Christ, and we do not accomplish this apart from the freely given grace of God. (Ephesians 2:8)

Yes we do--we choose to remain and abide in Christ or we don't and fall away. God gave us that freedom to choose for His own reasons and that is to sort us out and be tried for a purpose.



For all reading this particular passage, there are a couple things to take into account. First, the preceding verse of Hebrews 6:3 states "And this will we do, if God permit.", which should emphasize that the works of sanctification are not man working his righteousness apart from God, but in synergistic cooperation with him once regenerate. Second, the word used to describe those that have fallen away are "those who were once ENLIGHTENED", this is different from one who is spiritually regenerate, but rather one who has come to a human understanding of the faith and has had a taste of The Holy Ghost but have not been spiritually reborn. Human faith is a concept that dovetails with the parable of the wheat and tares noted in Matthew 13:24-30. There are those in the church whom, like Judas Iscariot, reside in the church and are not elect, and will confirm their enmity with God at some point. It is also interesting to note that Paul likewise uses a harvesting analogy to a very similar effect in Hebrews 6:8, not long after the verse under consideration here.

I do not agree with your interpretation at all. That is not what Hebrews 6:4 is saying at all. It's clearly in reconciliation with the rest of Gods word indication that we can and people do lose their state of elect and salvation by walking away from Christ--because accepting or rejecting the gift of salvation and abiding in Christ is and has always been a *CHOICE*.


You've just contradicted your previous statement regarding "losing one's salvation" by stating "You can't lose what you never had to begin with", this is precisely what Reformed theology teaches, that those who are not elect are not given the gifts of salvation. Furthermore, we retain the sense of salvation by abiding in Christ with the help of The Holy Spirit, we never abide in Christ of ourselves alone, for original/ancestral sin does not fall away with any sanctifying works.

Nothing sustains us in Christ other than our faith, belief and willingness to continually abide in Christ by choice. People can and do walk away and as a result can lose their state of elect--only God knows when a believer won't return. As God pleads with people over and over---"return unto me".



There is no "Protestant Church", there is a "Reformed Faith", there is also a distinct "Lutheran Faith", a "Baptist Faith", and a whole slew of heretical offshoots of the Anabaptist fanatics that sprang up close to the same time as the Magistrate Reformers, but were otherwise a wholly distinct movement in the Radical Reformation. If you've adopted the Roman Church's view of history (I assume so since you haven't said so in so many words here), your confusion on this point is logical, as they tend to suppress the truth on a number of key historical events, particularly in how they misrepresent the Reformed position by conflating it with the Radicals.

What church did you come out of specifically? I ask primarily because it will give me a basis for understanding precisely how you came to this position. I am not currently in communion with any Baptist, Lutheran or Mainline Presbyterian Church due to corrupt teachings regarding sacramental theology and violations of the regulative principles of the Westminster and Reformed Confessions and Catechisms that have cropped up in the past 150 years in the case of the latter group . I myself was a communicate Roman Catholic for about 5 years, and I left the church primarily because of pervasive problems with abuses by the clergy that ended up touching my family, though I later studied the history of the persecution of the students of Michael Baius and Cornelius Jansen (Jansenists) and came to understand that the Roman church that produced such brilliant Augustinian theologians such as Anselm and Thomas Aquinas died at the Council of Trent and took the road of Ultramontanist errors, which accounts for the distorted view that they hold regarding the relationship between the clergy and the congregation.

I have not adopted the "Roman view" of anything other than they are correct regarding certain things as no one is once saved always saved or chosen in this life.

I currently believe that the EOC has the most correct position on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
Paul in 1 Corinthians 9: 27 also tells us that we are running a race to the very end of this life and course and that at any time we are never to presume upon God whom He chooses in this life or the next because we are not guaranteed any such thing as eternal security in this life--we have been called to a purpose and only those who overcome this life and to the very end will our Lord confess before God and the angels in heaven, (Rev. 3:5)

1 Corinthians 9:27

24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul again reiterates that we are tested and tried to the very end of our lives--not knowing until then and after if we have remained abiding in Christ. Paul says--"I'm ready now"---"I have finished my course, I have kept the faith"--Now I know I'm ready and will receive my crown.

2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
 
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I sat a long time with the teaching of Total Depravity. The question I kept asking is, "Why me, Lord?" I kept looking at myself, and not to Christ. Now I know that I could never live up to the Law. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news that believers are forgiven (justified), by Christ's finished work on the Cross. Please consider that short article.

Reformed Theology: Total Depravity: from R.C. Sproul Nov 07, 2012


The doctrine of total depravity reflects the Reformed viewpoint of original sin. That term—original sin—is often misunderstood in the popular arena. Some people assume that the term original sin must refer to the first sin—the original transgression that we’ve all copied in many different ways in our own lives, that is, the first sin of Adam and Eve. But that’s not what original sinhas referred to historically in the church. Rather, the doctrine of original sin defines the consequences to the human race because of that first sin.

We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. —R.C. Sproul

Virtually every church historically that has a creed or a confession has agreed that something very serious happened to the human race as a result of the first sin—that first sin resulted in original sin. That is, as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, the entire human race fell, and our nature as human beings since the fall has been influenced by the power of evil. As David declared in the Old Testament, “Oh, God, I was born in sin, and in sin did my mother conceive me” (Ps. 51:5). He was not saying that it was sinful for his mother to have borne children; neither was he saying that he had done something evil by being born. Rather, he was acknowledging the human condition of fallenness—that condition that was part of the experience of his parents, a condition that he himself brought into this world. Therefore, original sin has to do with the fallen nature of mankind. The idea is that we are not sinners because we sin, but that we sin because we are sinners.

In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be. You might think of an archfiend of history such as Adolf Hitler and say there was absolutely no redeeming virtue in the man, but I suspect that he had some affection for his mother. As wicked as Hitler was, we can still conceive of ways in which he could have been even more wicked than he actually was. So the idea of total, in total depravity, doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die. It affects our minds and our thinking; we still have the capacity to think, but the Bible says the mind has become darkened and weakened. The will of man is no longer in its pristine state of moral power. The will, according to the New Testament, is now in bondage. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spirit—indeed, the whole person—have been infected by the power of sin.

I like to replace the term total depravity with my favorite designation, which is radical corruption. Ironically, the word radical has its roots in the Latin word for “root,” which is radix, and it can be translated root or core. The term radical has to do with something that permeates to the core of a thing. It’s not something that is tangential or superficial, lying on the surface. The Reformed view is that the effects of the fall extend or penetrate to the core of our being. Even the English word core actually comes from the Latin word cor, which means “heart.” That is, our sin is something that comes from our hearts. In biblical terms, that means it’s from the core or very center of our existence.

So what is required for us to be conformed to the image of Christ is not simply some small adjustments or behavioral modifications, but nothing less than renovation from the inside. We need to be regenerated, to be made over again, to be quickened by the power of the Spirit. The only way in which a person can escape this radical situation is by the Holy Spirit’s changing the core, the heart. However, even that change does not instantly vanquish sin. The complete elimination of sin awaits our glorification in heaven.
 
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Neither man changed or rearranged Scripture. They were deeply committed to teaching Scripture, Luther working diligently to translate the bible into German.[/B]

Martin Luther removed seven books from the Holy Bible, and wanted to remove St. James' Epistle as well as Revelation. He most certainly did rearrange Scripture by omitting books which the Church canonized as inspired writings over a thousand years before his birth.
 
Martin Luther removed seven books from the Holy Bible, and wanted to remove St. James' Epistle as well as Revelation. He most certainly did rearrange Scripture by omitting books which the Church canonized as inspired writings over a thousand years before his birth.

Monday, March 15, 2010

Did Martin Luther Remove Books From the Bible?





When reading books by theological liberals it is often common practice to avoid any areas of disagreement between opposing denominations. Fuzzy language is used that can sound appealing but has no real substance. The writer often doesn't even really even agree with his own theological heritage--he views it as primitive and archaic.

Ecumenical conversations are much more helpful when conducted by people who actually subscribe the original intent of their respective confessions and are actually willing to discuss the core issues that separate them. Unfortunately, different traditions have their own vocabulary and assign different meanings to words. There are also many misunderstandings about what other groups actually teach and often even when people are trying really hard there is even misunderstanding about what a person's own tradition actually teaches.

I've been reading a book by an Eastern Orthodox writer that I have some respect for. I enjoy her writing even though I disagree with her synergistic understanding of salvation. She made the claim that Christian throughout history accepted the Apocrypha but that Martin Luther removed books from the Bible and that's why Protestants don't have the Apocrypha in their Bibles. This is a common statement made by both Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. Generally Protestants respond by saying that Martin Luther did not remove books, the Roman Catholic church added them. Then the argument usually involves two people who really don't know what they are talking about arguing about which books should be included and why. I've heard some Protestants even use strange mathematical formulas to prove that they have the correct number of books.

But the Reformation did not occur because of a dispute over the canon. If we spend our time arguing about the canonical books we miss an opportunity to discuss the real issues. There were always Christians who questioned the canonicity of various Biblical books. It wasn't until the Council of Trent that any formal declaration was made as to which books were canonical by the Roman Catholics, no such list was made by Lutherans. There has always been widespread belief in the canonicity of the Gospels, the letters of Paul, and the books contained in the Hebrew Bible, but there was disagreement about other books and people were not excommunicating one another over it.

Did Martin Luther remove books? Nope. He questioned the canonicity of the books but he did not remove them. He put them in a separate section but he did not take them out. Did his descendants? Nope. Did the translators of the KJV? Nope. One of the bishops who translated the KJV made it illegal to print KJV Bibles without the Apocryhpa. It wasn't until the 1880's that Protestants began printing Bibles without the Apocrypha. The Apocryphal books should not occupy the same place in our theology that the Gospels do but they should not become the chief article that divides us. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans all hold up the Gospel Book and give it a special place in the service. The same is not done with the Apocrypha in any of the churches. All make some use of the Apocrypha in the liturgy.


Posted by Chuck Wiese at 10:05 PM
 
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