A new site vision; a new era

[younglibertarian]

Some could even use a liberty only argument to say that they have the liberty to lie to you about something that they are selling to you. So our site Mission includes the support of liberty, justice and honest markets.

I see one major flaw in this, and that is the honesty part.

Technically in a free market which we strive for, businesses have the freedom to advertise their products as they please, even if it is incorrect. This results in the failure of the business due to bad testimonies and track record. The free market adjusts itself.

For example I can sell you a used car that I know is about to have a transmission failure and you can decide to purchase it. Now is that morally right? No but technically speaking it is allowed. This is both our faults to some extent. On your part it would be a lack of knowledge. The positive is that you can tell others and ask for restitution. If I don't give you a refund or change my business practices, my dealership will go under.

So free markets is a better way to put that rather then honest ones.

Just a thought.

 

[Bryan]

Wouldn't the issue of justice fly in the face of the TOS?

Maybe not in every instance but frequently.........

If I'm following your logic, I would say no, it doesn't have to.

Justice can be served by putting people on trial for their crimes. The problem is you need a critical mass to support that, but you likewise need a critical mass to do anything on such a scale. So to me, the question becomes, how do we build a critical mass of people?

 

[Bryan]

I see one major flaw in this, and that is the honesty part.

Technically in a free market which we strive for, businesses have the freedom to advertise their products as they please, even if it is incorrect. This results in the failure of the business due to bad testimonies and track record. The free market adjusts itself.

For example I can sell you a used car that I know is about to have a transmission failure and you can decide to purchase it. Now is that morally right? No but technically speaking it is allowed. This is both our faults to some extent. On your part it would be a lack of knowledge. The positive is that you can tell others and ask for restitution. If I don't give you a refund or change my business practices, my dealership will go under.

So free markets is a better way to put that rather then honest ones.

Just a thought.

I started a new thread on this:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?494382-Free-and-honest-markets

 

[VIDEODROME]

Would it make everything really simple to just adopt the official Libertarian Party platform? https://www.lp.org/platform

 

[euphemia]

I don't think the Libertarian platform would do because we do not have enough citizens who self-govern. Until everyone agrees to be self-governing with consensus, there cannot be a generally peaceful society. There will always be those who disagree, and it is easier to make a rule or a law than to reform and reshape a character. Our society seems to have lost the will to do what is right. The rights of all individuals are important. Until that fact is understood by all, and all live according to that standard, it is useless to say everyone can do whatever they want. The louder and more powerful will continue to violate the rights of others. The only thing that changes is who holds the power.

 

[VIDEODROME]

Just make this the Bryan for President 2020 forum

 

[opal]

I don't know man.....

From here it doesn't seem broken, hence no need to fix it.

here here.. one of my first thoughts

Ah, sounds nice. Kind of reminds me of one of those new wave churches. We're not a cult are we?

at least I'm not alone seeing that name and thinking .. outside the box church

 

[HVACTech]

Branding Change
In support of the new era and to illustrate our objective of providing educational guides, the site’s secondary branding of “Liberty Forest” will soon be replaced with a new brand, “The Guide Point”. As part of this we have secured the domain name theguidepoint.com. The branding change will also help support an expanded scope of tactical efforts that we will use to support our Mission.

I like your approach to this. and I think that you have correctly identified the "malfunction" of the "Liberty" movement. we have no "brand".

in today's world, we hear a LOT of wailing and gnashing of teeth over the word "Label" that a "brand" can be considered a "Label"
I will hold as self evident.

when I first heard this term, "I don't like the use of, or to use, "Labels". it caused a fight. my immediate response was, "WTF are you talking about? what the hell does that even mean?"
this terminology is still quite popular today. and here we are 9 years later, still laboring under this precept.
so, what is a "Label"?

in my line of work, if you tell me, "my heat is not working" that is not enough information. I am going to ask you to "Label" your equipment for me.
is it a heat pump or a gas furnace? (is it a coal stoker? ) if the person cannot answer this query.. (and frequently they cannot.) this puts me in an awkward position... do I press the issue?

I submit that a "Label" is a classification sir. a category, a genre with distinctive identifying characteristics.

we cannot be a "guide point" if we do not have a Point sir. I submit that the first order of business is to chose a classification for ourselves.

myself, I chose "HVACTech" as my "label" long ago. I took a "position". Ron Paul himself let us down in this manner. HIS position is vague.
(or we would NOT be having this conversation)
consider,
Ron Paul, "I am a champion of the Constitution" would ANY of us.. have supported him... if we thought that what he was talking about... was what we have today?
(stupid question, eh?)

I submit that what lit the fire for the R3volution, was Ron Paul's undying dedication and loyalty to the "original Intent", that this can ONLY be found in the 1791 version. and that the "guide point" is thus synonymous with Original Intent.

peace.

 

[HVACTech]

I don't think the Libertarian platform would do because we do not have enough citizens who self-govern. Until everyone agrees to be self-governing with consensus, there cannot be a generally peaceful society. There will always be those who disagree, and it is easier to make a rule or a law than to reform and reshape a character. Our society seems to have lost the will to do what is right. The rights of all individuals are important. Until that fact is understood by all, and all live according to that standard, it is useless to say everyone can do whatever they want. The louder and more powerful will continue to violate the rights of others. The only thing that changes is who holds the power.

that was well said Love. and is emblematic of the issues that I have with the tough-guy abstract anarchists.

 

[VIDEODROME]

Seriously though, I'm just thinking shop around for any well established platform. Maybe adopt Ron Paul or Rand Paul's platform. Or Jessie Ventura or even John McAfee. Or Thomas Massie.

Just figure many other people in the political arena have already done the hard job of studying up on this and having this kind of discussion. If different ways, they have all done this already. If you find an already established platform everyone generally agrees on, you've saved yourself a ton of work and forum debate.

I would also suggest this is actually one of the strengths of other political groups. They band together and just support their candidate and spend most of their time arguing against the opposition instead of internally.

So, I would suggest one question to be asked is if people here can be united like this or if people here are to individualist and interested in internal debate. If the latter is the case, maybe run with that and become a political debate forum.

 

[afwjam]

Coalition building, coalition building, COALITION BUILDING. COALITION BUILDING!

We need to become more friendly to outsiders without compromising our ideals, we are libertarians let's be truly tolerant, honest and principled. We have a large opportunity ahead of us with the shutting out of Bernies people and the chaos in the GOP. We can give these people a place where they all belong. There are good elements in the Bernie movement, the Trump movement and the establishment republicans, we can unify these factions in Liberty especially if we can get past all the hate and intolerance. We will need to be like the hydra of Liberty with many tentacles and approaches but a warm mushy center that anyone can call home. Let's sell people on good opportunities not fear. Communication is key, we don't need a majority to win this fight.

 

[younglibertarian]

Coalition building, coalition building, COALITION BUILDING. COALITION BUILDING!

We need to become more friendly to outsiders without compromising our ideals, we are libertarians let's be truly tolerant, honest and principled. We have a large opportunity ahead of us with the shutting out of Bernies people and the chaos in the GOP. We can give these people a place where they all belong. There are good elements in the Bernie movement, the Trump movement and the establishment republicans, we can unify these factions in Liberty especially if we can get past all the hate and intolerance. We will need to be like the hydra of Liberty with many tentacles and approaches but a warm mushy center that anyone can call home. Let's sell people on good opportunities not fear. Communication is key, we don't need a majority to win this fight.

Fantastic point here. Often I see ex-Bernie/Trump supports gravitating towards the 3rd party/liberty movement, only to be greeted with scorn and condemnation. "We don't wan't you here" and ect.

Honestly this election season is a great year to spread the message and gain moment due to the "anti-establishment" candidates like Trump and Bernie. We ourselves may know that they are still the status quo. However I think that they are exposing corruption within the electoral system and the disgusting actions of the Democratic and Republican parties. We NEED to educate these people on the true meaning of liberty and freedom, yet without compromise.

It's allot harder then it seems though, sometimes when I see authoritarians:

 

[HVACTech]

Seriously though, I'm just thinking shop around for any well established platform. Maybe adopt Ron Paul or Rand Paul's platform. Or Jessie Ventura or even John McAfee. Or Thomas Massie.

Just figure many other people in the political arena have already done the hard job of studying up on this and having this kind of discussion. If different ways, they have all done this already. If you find an already established platform everyone generally agrees on, you've saved yourself a ton of work and forum debate.

I would also suggest this is actually one of the strengths of other political groups. They band together and just support their candidate and spend most of their time arguing against the opposition instead of internally.

So, I would suggest one question to be asked is if people here can be united like this or if people here are to individualist and interested in internal debate. If the latter is the case, maybe run with that and become a political debate forum.

that sounds a LOT like playing "copy-cat" and seeking "vain glory" sir. (I am not into that)

 

[Bryan]

Would it make everything really simple to just adopt the official Libertarian Party platform? https://www.lp.org/platform

It's certainly good for a political party within the US, but it's also tackling a different problem than we are here.

Just make this the Bryan for President 2020 forum

No.

 

[Bryan]

we cannot be a "guide point" if we do not have a Point sir. I submit that the first order of business is to chose a classification for ourselves.

Our knowledge base will do that, to the best degree possible.

Ron Paul himself let us down in this manner. HIS position is vague.
(or we would NOT be having this conversation)

True to a point, other than it's not inherently his, or anyone elses responsibility. None-the-less, this is part of what the knowledge base will be making clear.

consider,
Ron Paul, "I am a champion of the Constitution" would ANY of us.. have supported him... if we thought that what he was talking about... was what we have today?
(stupid question, eh?)

I submit that what lit the fire for the R3volution, was Ron Paul's undying dedication and loyalty to the "original Intent", that this can ONLY be found in the 1791 version. and that the "guide point" is thus synonymous with Original Intent.

I think the original intent is an excellent guide point, and an excellent target to aim for. It is in line with our Mission and has a very pure and simple message that goes with it, which makes it an excellent item for mass consumption. From an intellectual standpoint, I still think that things can be better, but those are different matters.

Thanks!

 

[Bryan]

I would also suggest this is actually one of the strengths of other political groups. They band together and just support their candidate and spend most of their time arguing against the opposition instead of internally.

I agree, that makes a lot of sense. Ultimately however, it is up to the individual how they spend their time and if they want to support a candidate. The site structure and policies are designed for us to allow for both debating and for activism. Our Think Thank section is more or less designed for debating issues. Our candidates forums are for activism, and attacks on the candidate are off-topic in those areas...

So, I would suggest one question to be asked is if people here can be united like this or if people here are to individualist and interested in internal debate. If the latter is the case, maybe run with that and become a political debate forum.

...so in this regard we have been both a forum for debate and activism. I don't see that changing.

Thanks!

 

[Bryan]

Coalition building, coalition building, COALITION BUILDING. COALITION BUILDING!

We need to become more friendly to outsiders without compromising our ideals, we are libertarians let's be truly tolerant, honest and principled.

Agree 100%. This is part of why we are upping the enforcement of the Community Guidelines. There is no question that we must stick to our principles but we will not win people over with a lack of tolerance, being rude or the like.

We have a large opportunity ahead of us with the shutting out of Bernies people and the chaos in the GOP. We can give these people a place where they all belong. There are good elements in the Bernie movement, the Trump movement and the establishment republicans, we can unify these factions in Liberty especially if we can get past all the hate and intolerance.

Agreed again. Leveraging current events is always key.

We will need to be like the hydra of Liberty with many tentacles and approaches but a warm mushy center that anyone can call home. Let's sell people on good opportunities not fear. Communication is key, we don't need a majority to win this fight.

Well said.


You're hitting on areas that we'll want to get into a lot more. Great post!

 

[Warlord]

I hope - Bryan - you will continue to evaluate candidates for public office. I really feel we stop getting obsessed with presidential politics

 

[afwjam]

I hope - Bryan - you will continue to evaluate candidates for public office. I really feel we stop getting obsessed with presidential politics

This too, bottom up.

 

[Matt Collins]

I think this is being over thought, don't try and reinvent the wheel. Just be the best pro-liberty discussion forum you can.