A Free Market Flaw?

ShadoD

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
10
Hi

I've been a long time supporter of Ron Paul and agree with him on most of his political points (especially concerning the FED), however talking from a strictly theoretical point of view, I see a problem with the unregulated free market. I'll try to make it as clear as possible here, just why that is:

I think we all agree that money is power, and I think we also agree that the purpose of a company/corporation is to generate a profit i.e. money. So by nature, successful corporations will (over time) accumulate great power. How can we then - as a people - feel safe, knowing that the corporations are the ones with the power?
How can we secure ourselves from their propaganda and even direct interference with politics (lobbyism for example)?
Isn't the free market flawed by design, when the wealth and power will eventually end up with corporations and not the people?

This is a question that has haunted me for quite some time, and I'd really appreciate some feedback on this.

Thanks a lot.
 
The free market is the ONLY system that gives individuals true power, since they can vote (without being coerced) with their dollars.


If you want corporations to have less power, the LAST thing you would want is government intervention.
 
Hi

I've been a long time supporter of Ron Paul and agree with him on most of his political points (especially concerning the FED), however talking from a strictly theoretical point of view, I see a problem with the unregulated free market. I'll try to make it as clear as possible here, just why that is:

I think we all agree that money is power, and I think we also agree that the purpose of a company/corporation is to generate a profit i.e. money. So by nature, successful corporations will (over time) accumulate great power. How can we then - as a people - feel safe, knowing that the corporations are the ones with the power?
How can we secure ourselves from their propaganda and even direct interference with politics (lobbyism for example)?
Isn't the free market flawed by design, when the wealth and power will eventually end up with corporations and not the people?

This is a question that has haunted me for quite some time, and I'd really appreciate some feedback on this.

Thanks a lot.

This question that "haunts" you is perhaps the "most" common among those who worry about the "free market system".

When all these talking heads and intellectuals talk about a "free market system", all they are really talking about is a system free of injustice. That's it really. There's theoretical stuff that supposedly would counteract the tendency for monopolies to form, but nothing that is really scientific. In some things a monopoly might even be beneficial in a "free market".

So this idea of an "unregulated free market" is a contradiction in terms in my opinion. There would be regulations to prevent injustice. But not "laws" enforced that are by their nature unjust.

EDIT: Oh yeah, almost forgot. You're thread title and post count is very suspicious and makes it look like you are simply trolling the boards. I mean "free market flaw" when in the post you play ignorant and are asking questions. Just saying.
 
Last edited:
If corporation are using their power to manipulate flow of say tax dollars, then it is no longer a truly free market. I believe that would go under what Ron Paul calls chrony capitalism.
 
I'm not going to seriously address the economic aspect here, but I'll address the political aspect.

It IS a huge problem that corporations and the rich have undue influence on government. You can't even put a dent in this through campaign finance laws, because most of the corruption comes from other avenues:
  • There's a revolving door between politics/bureaucracy and corporate leadership positions. You can't sanely eliminate this backscratching cycle without eliminating regulatory agencies altogether, because if you try to "outlaw" the revolving door, people will complain about unqualified people taking bureaucratic positions instead of "experts." Not to mention, nobody in high places ever gets in trouble unless they've really displeased someone else in high places. There are laws for "us," and there are laws for "them."
  • The media and largest special interests are interlinked and in bed with party leaderships. By the time the general election rolls around and the corporations are donating to one of the two anointed candidates at all - which is the corruption everyone notices and complains about - the damage has already been done anyway, since you're usually unlikely to have someone left in the race who wasn't bought and paid for years before the election anyway.

So, do we allow the government to have the power to arbitrarily regulate corporations and argue they use it more, in the hope we can keep them from taking over the government? (Note: It's not authorized by the Constitution, unless you want to grossly abuse the commerce clause...so, arguing for government regulatory power necessarily requires abusing/disregarding the Constitution or amending it.) Or, do we enforce hard limits on the governments power, which can't be crossed for any reason whatsoever, to make control of government completely useless to special interests?

If your answer is the first one, you grossly underestimate the ability of regular people to compete with the "elite" in the regulatory/bureaucratic/legislative tug-of-war, and you probably grossly misunderstand the kind of people that inevitably gravitate towards and thrive in positions of power. There is realistically no winning that fight, and I think Bastiat's The Law makes some good arguments here. The problem is, most people avoid recognizing the futility of this. Most people are just too emotionally hellbent on getting their pet coercive law implemented at all costs, so they refuse to see that the same underlying government authority for that law will inevitably be used against them more often than not.

To briefly touch on an economic point, it's crucial to point out that dominant/incumbent corporations actually like most regulations: Every single one means more red tape, fixed costs like lawyer costs, permits, inspections, etc. that any startup will have to deal with, in addition to insurance requirements and size-proportional costs (and even costs proportional to business size still unduly affect small competition, since they have no existing cash reserves to fall back on in bad months). Increasing the cost of entry with regulations is a sneaky way that major corporations cripple competition and amplify the significance of economies of scale. It is this very regulatory environment which drives the economy-wide tendency of modern corporations to endlessly grow and assimilate their competition until none is left and still none reemerges. It is only after their dominance is fairly secure that the biggest corporations really oppose regulations (since they cut into profits without any payoff), and the way that power works guarantees that most of the time, they'll still work in subtle loopholes with back room deals...and all the while, everyone cheers about the big corporations getting their come-uppance from the regulators. There are new laws written everyday, and government meddles in the markets more and more everyday, yet people wonder why corporate dominance just keeps getting worse every decade/year and keep arguing for more government power to fix it. ;)

Long story short: If you want to take away the power of corporations to control government, the only feasible solution is to eliminate that arbitrary government power altogether and take precautions against it ever being reauthorized. Limits on government power need to be hard and non-negotiable (no matter what extreme scenario or sob story someone can come up with for "fudging" them on occasion)...or there won't be any limits at all.
 
Last edited:
When big corporations have their buddies up in washington make laws that take out their competion ie: "the little guy" the market is no longer free. Big Corporations are then free to do what ever they want.

All the licensure BS is about weeding out the small business over large corporation. Eventually it will cost too much to be a legal business starting out and that is what big corpo is trying to do to the little guy.
 
yup

Long story short: If you want to take away the power of corporations to control government, the only feasible solution is to eliminate that arbitrary government power altogether and take precautions against it ever being reauthorized. Limits on government power need to be hard and non-negotiable (no matter what extreme scenario or sob story someone can come up with for "fudging" them on occasion)...or there won't be any limits at all.

^this

Also, it should be noted that corporations are not the creation of the free market. Corporations are government-created entities.
 
Hi

I've been a long time supporter of Ron Paul and agree with him on most of his political points (especially concerning the FED), however talking from a strictly theoretical point of view, I see a problem with the unregulated free market. I'll try to make it as clear as possible here, just why that is:

I think we all agree that money is power, and I think we also agree that the purpose of a company/corporation is to generate a profit i.e. money. So by nature, successful corporations will (over time) accumulate great power. How can we then - as a people - feel safe, knowing that the corporations are the ones with the power?
How can we secure ourselves from their propaganda and even direct interference with politics (lobbyism for example)?
Isn't the free market flawed by design, when the wealth and power will eventually end up with corporations and not the people?

This is a question that has haunted me for quite some time, and I'd really appreciate some feedback on this.

Thanks a lot.

I agree money is power perceived.
I assert entrepreneurs drive the economic engine.
I assert successful entrepreneurs get rich.
I assert successful rich entrepreneurs figure out how to take advantage of any monopoly of force to stifle competition.
I assert successful rich entrepreneurs are successful and rich because they are good at selling their ideas.

The only way to ever keep successful rich entrepreneurs in check is to insure there is no monopoly of force they can bribe to plunder the competition and there can always be competition which is a potential threat to their wealth.
 
Hi

I've been a long time supporter of Ron Paul and agree with him on most of his political points (especially concerning the FED), however talking from a strictly theoretical point of view, I see a problem with the unregulated free market. I'll try to make it as clear as possible here, just why that is:

I think we all agree that money is power, and I think we also agree that the purpose of a company/corporation is to generate a profit i.e. money.

First, money is nothing more than a tool. It can be an ELEMENT that enables certain sorts of power, but in and of itself it is not power. Electricity is raw power. Store it in a capacitor and bridge the leads with your wet hands and you will find this out shortly before you die. A stack of currency will do nothing of the sort because it is just paper.

Second, your assumption about corporate purpose is demonstrably flawed. The root purposes underlying the existence of corporations can vary quite broadly. Profit is often one of the reasons they exist, but often it is not the only one, nor it is always the primary one. Here I will recommend a VERY good book that IMO everyone here and everyone in the nation should read: "Built To Last" by Collins and Porras. They do a superlative job of destroying several of the myths about corporations. I cannot recommend this work highly enough. Get it, read it, then read it again. Repeat until you have gotten the ideas clear in your thoughts.

There is a LOT of anti-corporation sentiment in the USA these days, thanks to the jerks who would see this nation and the freedoms it embodies dismantled. This is not to say that there are no bad actors here - there most certainly are and I do believe that corporations must be held accountable for criminal actions just as we all must be. But to regulate them unto death is not a virtue in a free nation. Those regulations hurt US more than them. One is behooved to think about that a bit.

So by nature, successful corporations will (over time) accumulate great power. How can we then - as a people - feel safe, knowing that the corporations are the ones with the power?
When corporations are held to the same standards as the rest, there is no basis for worry. It is precisely that they are sometimes given passes on their obligations to observe the proprieties of good conduct and citizenship that the problems arise.

How can we secure ourselves from their propaganda and even direct interference with politics (lobbyism for example)?
This is nonsense. They are entitled to express themselves just as we are. The responsibility lies with each of us to determine whether what they advocate is meritorious. Your question betrays your (perhaps unintentional) desire to avoid being responsible for your own opinions. Major fail, so sorry.

Isn't the free market flawed by design, when the wealth and power will eventually end up with corporations and not the people?
Here you demonstrate that you have a very poor understanding of what a free market is. The USA is NOT a free market economy - not by a long shot. It is a rigged market economy where certain interests such as banking, hold positions of special privilege that enable them to exercise certain power to which they are not rightly entitled. Therefore, before you go posing such questions in a public forum, you ought to understand the concepts and the realities of those things after which you make your queries. What has been demonstrated here in the USA is that RIGGED market economies are non-viable as long term propositions precisely because the interests that succeed in positioning themselves in the ways you apparently find disagreeable end up destroying the opportunities for prosperity in favor of tectonic shifts toward fascism.

This is a question that has haunted me for quite some time, and I'd really appreciate some feedback on this.

Thanks a lot.
You need to learn what a real free market is before you can move forward. Free markets in nations where the people take a grim view of injustice are the vehicles of virtually unlimited potential for opportunities of individual prosperity. When the large business entities are regarded and handled in the right way, there is little to fear.
 
Last edited:
^this

Also, it should be noted that corporations are not the creation of the free market. Corporations are government-created entities.



Yep.



Corporations maintain their power from government welfare and government protections from competition. So the very intervention that economically illiterate people think will "regulate the corporations" is actually the intervention that creates and feeds the corporate power to begin with.



This is why all of the "anti-corporate" banter that is tossed around today by the Left is misguided. If you want to limit the power of ANY business over you, then you seperate that business from government interventions.
 
^this

Also, it should be noted that corporations are not the creation of the free market. Corporations are government-created entities.

what do "big bodies of people who form powerful companies" get called in a free market, or do they exist?
 
Yep.



Corporations maintain their power from government welfare

so a company which lacks this quality is by definition "not a corporation"?


and government protections from competition.

are all competition legal and allowed?

So the very intervention that economically illiterate people think will "regulate the corporations" is actually the intervention that creates and feeds the corporate power to begin with.

so what's the alternative? let corporations continue their abuse?


This is why all of the "anti-corporate" banter that is tossed around today by the Left is misguided.

you don't sound very pro-corporate either

If you want to limit the power of ANY business over you, then you seperate that business from government interventions.

how separate, how about basic property protection?
 
When big corporations have their buddies up in washington make laws that take out their competion ie: "the little guy" the market is no longer free. Big Corporations are then free to do what ever they want.

you don't believe a person or company has the freedom to do what they want with their money and friends?


All the licensure BS is about weeding out the small business over large corporation.

do small businesses have a right to exist? at what point is it fair to weed them out?


Eventually it will cost too much to be a legal business starting out and that is what big corpo is trying to do to the little guy.

is that always bad?

i dont mind being unemployed and without a business as long as I'm fed and taken care of.
 
If you want corporations to have less power, the LAST thing you would want is government intervention.

This may or may not be so, depending on one's definitions. But I can say that what you DO want is the ability to hold them accountable for their actions. If they commit a crime, they must be held to the standard and treated accordingly. Just as individual people cannot be allowed to run wild, nor can corporations. The standard to which we are all to be held is an easy one to meet. Interference beyond that is the thing against which our complaints and efforts should be made.
 
This may or may not be so, depending on one's definitions. But I can say that what you DO want is the ability to hold them accountable for their actions. If they commit a crime, they must be held to the standard and treated accordingly. Just as individual people cannot be allowed to run wild, nor can corporations. The standard to which we are all to be held is an easy one to meet. Interference beyond that is the thing against which our complaints and efforts should be made.



If you want coporations to be held accountable for their actions, then the last thing you want is government intervention!!!


Look at the great deal that BP just got for their oil spill. Setting up a sweetheart deal with government that only pays the victims 20 million? The market might have demanded more than that!
 
I think we all agree that money is power, and I think we also agree that the purpose of a company/corporation is to generate a profit i.e. money. So by nature, successful corporations will (over time) accumulate great power. How can we then - as a people - feel safe, knowing that the corporations are the ones with the power?

Hi ShadoD, and welcome to the forum.

The bottom line here is that some Person A is simply holding more in cash balances than some Person B deems appropriate. It is important then to ask: by what criteria did Person B make such a determination? At what point does holding money become holding too much money? $100? $1 billion? $100 trillion?

You have implied that you think holding cash in greater amounts than some yet undefined x is inherently wrong. Why is this? What is your x and why did you choose it?
 
Last edited:
Corporations are not free market entities. They are legal fictions created by legislation, and would not exist as they are currently structured in a free market system.
 
Hi

I've been a long time supporter of Ron Paul and agree with him on most of his political points (especially concerning the FED), however talking from a strictly theoretical point of view, I see a problem with the unregulated free market. I'll try to make it as clear as possible here, just why that is:

I think we all agree that money is power, and I think we also agree that the purpose of a company/corporation is to generate a profit i.e. money. So by nature, successful corporations will (over time) accumulate great power. How can we then - as a people - feel safe, knowing that the corporations are the ones with the power?
How can we secure ourselves from their propaganda and even direct interference with politics (lobbyism for example)?
Isn't the free market flawed by design, when the wealth and power will eventually end up with corporations and not the people?

This is a question that has haunted me for quite some time, and I'd really appreciate some feedback on this.

Thanks a lot.

I like what Doug Weed (a libertarian and historian) once said on the matter. (In my own words...not as eloquent as Mr Weed). He was originally a ministerial student, and they would go to the college cafeteria fasting and ordering nothing but water to demonstrate for the hungry of the world. They felt superior over those who were choosing to eat.

Finally one day he realized his fasting helped not one hungry person. He also began to realize that as Americans partook of capitalism they spread wealth. For example originally refrigerators and TVs were very expensive, and out of reach for the average person. But as more people began to buy them the prices came down, and eventually even poor countries could afford them.

He went on with a speech that would bring tears to your eyes on how people in communist countries died trying to bring about what we take for granted here in the U.S. I wish I could recall the rest of the story, but I would not do it justice.
 
I see a problem with the unregulated free market.
I think we all agree that money is power, and I think we also agree that the purpose of a company/corporation is to generate a profit i.e. money. So by nature, successful corporations will (over time) accumulate great power. How can we then - as a people - feel safe, knowing that the corporations are the ones with the power? How can we secure ourselves from their propaganda and even direct interference with politics (lobbyism for example)?
Isn't the free market flawed by design, when the wealth and power will eventually end up with corporations and not the people?
:confused: You describe the problem we currently have with central planning controlled markets. Monopolies are protected by being granted favored status through regulations.

Laissez-faire free markets solve these problems.

A monopoly in laissez-faire free markets would have to be an exceptionally good company because the only way the company could maintain its monopoly status would be to provide high quality products at exceptional value.
 
Back
Top