6.8 or 5.56: Worried About Not Enough Ammo?

[tommyzDad]

No, this is not a question to fuel a debate on the "better" caliber.

I'm hoping someone will throw in their opinion as to what would be the more practical caliber when TSHTF. I mean in terms of sheer availability, are any of you who own only a rifle in 6.8mm (or 6.5mm for that matter) concerned at all about being reduced to having nothing but an expensive club when you run out of ammo.

I'm on a budget and torn between 5.56 and 6.8 (I've looked at 6.5 but the as far I can tell, there is only one mfr right now, Alexander Arms...).

 

[Sharpstick]

The Military did not switch to the 6.8 SPC because it was found that MK262 MOD0/1 was just as effective and they could keep with current issue weapons. The 5.56 Will be and is much more readily available then any other chambering that you can get the AR15 in. It is not the END all be all round, but i thing any shortcomings it has are tolerable when you conceder that it is the most widely use round buy our military, NATO troops, Police , and other federal agencies.


I did just order an upper in 5.45X39 so that i can shoot up the cheap AK74 round, but its practice only and the 5.56 will remain my Bullet of choice.

 

[TruckinMike]

in terms of sheer availability

5.56 is in every soldiers ruck sack that the UN could throw at us. It is by far the most plentiful.

Next... and my preference 7.62x51

and here is why...

The M240, formally United States Machine Gun, 7.62mm, M240, is a family of belt-fed, gas operated medium machine guns firing the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge (w/ M13 Link). It is a version of the Belgian FN MAG 58 (Mitrailleuse d`Appui Général, "General Purpose Machine Gun") machine gun used by the US Armed Forces.

The M240 has been used by the United States armed forces since the late 1970s. It is used extensively by infantry, as well as ground vehicles, watercraft, and aircraft. Despite not being the lightest medium machine gun in service, the M240 is highly regarded for reliability, and its standardization among NATO members is also seen as a major advantage.

...That means PLENTY of AMMO from the UN troops that are sent to squelch our Constitution and Country.



========================================================

And for the other shtf scenario -- no military, but hordes of zombies, the .308 is on every shelf in every gun shop in America. But then again, 5.56 is fairly easy to get.Lots of law enforcement use it. ---- Who are you fighting zombies or a trained military? Or Both?

I guess it really depends what scenario you are expecting. And what firepower you think you need. I for one don't plan on being near any action that wouldn't require a high power cartridge like the 7.62x51.

Note: The 7.62 round is also very capable in CQB; its like a leatherman, it has many uses. Up close and personal, out to 700yds, and its great for putting food on the table.

My suggestion:

Own at least one M1A for business

...and a couple of AR's for fun


=================================

Did you notice that I didn't even mention the 6.8 or 6.5?

TMike

 

[Dequeant]

My choices would be:
6.8SPC
5.56
7.62
.308
.300

In that order, however, i reload, so availablity isn't as much as an issue when it comes to 6.8SPC. I would also have to disagree strongly with the statement that any form of 5.56 is equal to any form of 6.8........its just a superior round. It sorta goes back to the military saying dragonskin is not as good as interceptor, any statements from the M.I.C. that affect the M.I.C. have to be taken with a dumptruck full of salt.

 

[youngbuck]

I would love to have a gun in 6.8 or 6.5, but I've decided against it simply because of ammo availability and price. If TSHTF, you will want common rounds, and 6.8 and 6.5 are NOT in comparison to 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x39, and 5.45x39. You'll have to compromise performance or idealism for future availability.

 

[tommyzDad]

Thanks for the input, guys. It seems I've been swayed toward 5.56. I don't foresee getting into reloading, for budgeting reasons--hell, I'm scraping up the pennies as it is for an AR.

@Sharpstick: I'm guessing the MK262 MOD0/1 is the designation for the round, and not the latest and greatest version of the rifle in use? What's the weight of the Mk262?

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Well, for something in the neighborhood of the cost of an AR-15, you could always get an AR-10 in .308

Or even better, you can go to your local Appleseed shoot coming up on 19 Apr and then take your newly-earned CMP cert and buy an M1 Garand for around $500-$600 and a bunch of 30-06

Niiiiice

 

[GunnyFreedom]

That's not to disparage the 5.56x45 or the AR-15. My AR-15 is my primary stick right now until I can afford an AR-10. The 5.56 NATO round has a LOT better terminal ballistics when using a 70-77 grain round (as opposed to the issue M855 62 gr round)

Anecdote from Iraq has it that the M855 62-gr has issues with lethality (terminal ballistics) beyond 500 yards, while the USGI Match round in 77-gr has excellent terminal ballistics out to 800 yards.

So I'd stick with your plan to get a rifle chambered in 5.56 NATO, but when you stockpile ammo, focus on 69-gr through 75-gr rounds to overcome the potential terminal ballistics issues.

ALSO important note make SURE absolutely SURE that the rifle you get is chambered in 5.56 NATO and NOT .223 Remington. Some folks will tell you they are identical. THEY ARE NOT! A 5.56 NATO chamber can fire both rounds, but a .223 Remington chamber firing 5.56 NATO can result in catastrophic failure! There is a difference in headspace within the chamber which can cause 5.56 NATO rounds to result in massive overpressure in a .223 Remington chamber.

EDIT: ADDITIONAL PS - If you will be using the heavier rounds, ie 69-gr through 77-gr then you MUST have a 1:7 twist barrel or you will encounter failure to stabilize issues and poor precision/accuracy. If you ONLY plan on using a maximum grain weight of the NATO issue 62-gr rounds (M855 & MilSurp rounds) then the 1:9 twist is acceptable, but the 1:7 is still preferred. If you shoot the lighter 55-gr rounds (MilSurp and NATO issue prior to the M855) then a 1:7 barrel will overstabilize and lead to some accuracy issues at extreme range.

 

[madengr]

Well, for something in the neighborhood of the cost of an AR-15, you could always get an AR-10 in .308

I like FALs for .308

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I like FALs for .308

FAL's are finicky with different loads, you have to fiddle with the adjustable gas system. I don't want the have to futz with the gas system based on switching from underpower rounds to overpower rounds and vice versa. I can just imagine doing a battlefield pickup of a bunch of .308, turns out it's NATO and underpowered from your last mag. Now you've got 30 zombies coming over the hill at 250 yds and closing fast, and you're getting ejection failures because you need to dial in the gas. yikes!

That, and if I'm working with a round as heavy as a .308 I'll want to be taking head-shots at 500 yds. A FAL definitely makes an AK look like a rattle-trap greasegun, but it's not exactly a tack driver. Honestly, I don't want a rifle that isn't a tack driver. But that's just the snobbish Marine Corps marksman in me that feels that way. For most folks center mass at 400 yds is plenty accurate.

Yeah, having a tack driver means higher maintenance, but high maintenance doesn't scare me. To each their own, really, but for me, for .308 I'll take an M1A/M14 or an AR-10/SR-25 over a FAL any day.

 

[tommyzDad]

Thansk, Gunny. I was trying to recall where I'd read some of those anecdotes from Iraq regarding the heavier 5.56; you saved me the "leg work".

Locked in my brain-housing group:
69 to 75-grain rounds
.223 does not equal 5.56.
And I'll plan on ensuring a 1-in-7 in the rifling, and expect the issues you mentioned should I run into a load of the lighter stuff.
Cheers!

 

[Sharpstick]

MK262 MOD1/0 is the military name for a 75-77 grain open tip match bullet. These rounds has proven to be very effective in the combat zone and are among the most sought after rounds out there. Though if you plan on using them you had better start reloading as the cost per case is as high as the gun that shoots them. This is due to military demand and the fact that any of these we do get on the open market are a rare bird. The plants that make these have a hard time keeping up with military demand.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Thansk, Gunny. I was trying to recall where I'd read some of those anecdotes from Iraq regarding the heavier 5.56; you saved me the "leg work".

Locked in my brain-housing group:
69 to 75-grain rounds
.223 does not equal 5.56.
And I'll plan on ensuring a 1-in-7 in the rifling, and expect the issues you mentioned should I run into a load of the lighter stuff.
Cheers!

Hahah, you had me spinning over half the silly internet -- I KNOW I just used that "Marine-ism" -- 'brain housing group' within the last 48 hours somewhere...

Well out standing! Glad I could help!

The one area where I do NOT have a goodly amount of knowledge is in brands. I mentioned in the AR thread I posted that Colt is the best. While that remains true, swapping receivers out on a Colt is made more difficult by the fact that they put the forward retaining pin in a bigger cutout hole than everyone else, which makes that difficult to say the least.

A fella named Gideon in my other AR thread posted the following link:

http://www.awrm.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000390;p=1

Which seems to contain a most adequate analysis of which manufacturers are the best and which are not.

 

[Sharpstick]

Hahah, you had me spinning over half the silly internet -- I KNOW I just used that "Marine-ism" -- 'brain housing group' within the last 48 hours somewhere...

Well out standing! Glad I could help!

The one area where I do NOT have a goodly amount of knowledge is in brands. I mentioned in the AR thread I posted that Colt is the best. While that remains true, swapping receivers out on a Colt is made more difficult by the fact that they put the forward retaining pin in a bigger cutout hole than everyone else, which makes that difficult to say the least.

A fella named Gideon in my other AR thread posted the following link:

http://www.awrm.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000390;p=1

Which seems to contain a most adequate analysis of which manufacturers are the best and which are not.

Only the original Old colt receivers used the bigger forward retaining pin, all modern cold rifles newer then the original A1 colts use the same pin as everyone else. That link to AWRM and Tireirons post is great, I found this sight through that sight. That is by far the best AR information i have seen.

 

[voortrekker]

Listen to Gunny.

Get one chambered for 5.56.

If you can't get an original Colt, I would buy Rock River Arms, then DPMS/Bushmaster. I would not trust any other maker.

Also, importantly, I would buy an AR-15 with the full length 20" barrel. AND one that has a detachable carrying handle. So, if you want to put a scope on it, you can.

AR-15 carbines look "cool" but you miss out on trajectory, accuracy and terminal ballistics, especially with the small 5.56 round.

Absolutley forget entirely other calibers on the AR-15 platform except 5.56 and 7.62X51mm.

5.56 and 7.62X51mm will ALWAYS be MUCH more available should TSHTF.

Also, get 10 very good quality mags for EVERY rifle you own.

Also, it does no good to own this rifle you want if you cannot shoot it.

As Gunny recommended, the Appleseed Project is a VERY good start for inexpensive rifle marksmanship training. Absolutely hands down the BEST for rifle marksmanship training for the FRN in the USA to date.

appleseedinfo.org

Once you get your rifle, mags, ammo and training, get some decent web gear to carry your mags.


Hope this helps.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Only the original Old colt receivers used the bigger forward retaining pin, all modern cold rifles newer then the original A1 colts use the same pin as everyone else. That link to AWRM and Tireirons post is great, I found this sight through that sight. That is by far the best AR information i have seen.

I have an A2 model Colt I purchased in 1991, manufactured circa 89-90 that has the larger forward retaining pin. It's pre-ban, but well post the A1 model (by at least 25 years)

It is a Colt Sporter Match HBAR. Easily a 1/2 MOA weapon with decent ammo. maybe as fine as a 1/4 MOA weapon when using the highest grades of premium match ammo (Such as Black Hills Gold 77).

I understand that the post from AWRM said you should get the police/LEO versions of the Colt rather than the Sporters, but the Match HBAR exceeds MilSpec in every way (Except for that silly forward takedown pin)

I can assure you that the M16A2 I fired in the USMC wouldn't hold a candle to the Match HBAR Sporter WRT accuracy and precision.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Listen to Gunny.

Get one chambered for 5.56.

If you can't get an original Colt, I would buy Rock River Arms, then DPMS/Bushmaster. I would not trust any other maker.

Also, importantly, I would buy an AR-15 with the full length 20" barrel. AND one that has a detachable carrying handle. So, if you want to put a scope on it, you can.

AR-15 carbines look "cool" but you miss out on trajectory, accuracy and terminal ballistics, especially with the small 5.56 round.

Absolutley forget entirely other calibers on the AR-15 platform except 5.56 and 7.62X51mm.

5.56 and 7.62X51mm will ALWAYS be MUCH more available should TSHTF.

Also, get 10 very good quality mags for EVERY rifle you own.

Also, it does no good to own this rifle you want if you cannot shoot it.

As Gunny recommended, the Appleseed Project is a VERY good start for inexpensive rifle marksmanship training. Absolutely hands down the BEST for rifle marksmanship training for the FRN in the USA to date.

appleseedinfo.org

Once you get your rifle, mags, ammo and training, get some decent web gear to carry your mags.


Hope this helps.

Thanks voortrekker!

That's an awful good point about the carbine models, and one I haven't even thought of raising heretofore.

Yes indeed, you really need to get the full sized barrel on the AR platform. The short barrel (such as on the carbine models) suffers greatly from lower muzzle velocities, which severely degrades trajectory, accuracy, effectiveness at range, lethality, and terminal ballistics.

The detachable carrying handle (A4 models) is a great idea if you ever want to put glass on it. As for me, when I get the AR-10 in .308 (7.62X51) it will be an A4 model with the rail on top instead of the 'handle' because the .308 just deserves glass. It is effective out to something like 850-900 yards, and I wouldn't really want to rely on iron sights beyond 500 yards.

But I am well and satisfied with the A2 model for 5.56 because (and here comes the Marine Corps snobbery again) I don't see much use for glass inside of 500 yards, and really, the 5.56 max effective range is only 550 yards anyway. Target acquisition is much much quicker on iron sights, and the AR-15 is my melee weapon. I'd rather have permanently fixed sites that I KNOW won't get maligned once zeroed than to have the ability to put glass on a weapon I consider almost useless beyond 500 yards anyway.

If I have 30 zombies cresting a hill at 400 yards and closing fast, then the difference in speed of acquisition between scope and iron sights may be the difference between life and death.

But that's just me. Most folks will want a scope beyond 300 yards, and you are right. A scope fixed to a flat rail is far more accurate than a scope screwed to the top of the "carrying handle" a full 3 inches or better above the line of trajectory. (I know that's the real name of it, but I HATE calling it a carrying handle -- that's what the slip ring is for )

 

[GunnyFreedom]

And please, everyone with a rifle, (and many without rifles) really really need to go to an Appleseed weekend. Seriously.

I left the Marine Corps with a 2nd award Expert Badge (missing expert in my other 2 quals by 2 points and 1 point respectively) and even for me the Appleseed shoot is the best thing since sliced bread. No joking here.

They are ready for you even if you have never pulled a trigger in your life, or if you have a 20 year career of shooting expert. EVERYONE should attend Appleseeds. I don't even really have the language within me to recommend this as highly as I feel it needs to be done.

if you know nothing about shooting a rifle, and you go to an Appleseed INTENT to pay close attention and learn and apply everything you get taught there, then you will come away shooting better than most Army infantry soldiers. not kidding. Really.

If you already know enough to score expert, then not only is an Appleseed a good refresher (we all need them!) but it's good practice, and chances ae you may learn something new. I knew NOTHING about MOA (Minutes Of Angle) before Appleseed, and that has turned out to be stupidly handy information.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

 

[Carehn]

223
cheap
easy
accurate

and then the trusty 12 gage

I would guess that most of you like myself have more then just one gun. but because of funds this is what i am stocking up on. And you know what? It will kill you just as dead.

 

[tommyzDad]

Thanks for the input, Voortrekker.

Also, importantly, I would buy an AR-15 with the full length 20" barrel. AND one that has a detachable carrying handle. So, if you want to put a scope on it, you can.

Actually I'm looking at getting something in 16": less barrel than the issued rifle, but more than the carbine.

Last time I shot Expert in the Corps was 1999, I think, which is pretty much the last time I ever held a rifle (as a Winger we didn't really use it when fixing aircraft. But every Marine a rifleman.......) Yeah, I'll check out Appleseed. Thanks.