Young Turks: Rand Paul caught lying about his college record

[acptulsa]

A medical degree is not a biology degree, nor is it an English degree. It's more impressive -- particularly coming from Duke -- but that's not the point.

If a medical degree is not a degree in the biological sciences then I wish you'd tell me just what the fuck discipline it does fall into. Is medicine all straight inorganic chemistry these days? Since he specialized in lenses focusing light, does that mean his M.D. counts as a physics degree? Is that it?

If medicine isn't biology then what the hell is it? Engineering? Is an M.D. a mechanic now? What? Someone tell me. Please. I want to share this liberal delusion so I can nitpick too. What flavor kool aid do I have to drink?

 

[DP714]

Duke did not require an undergraduate degree at the time to enroll in its medical school. It likely only required that he complete certain courses still required by medical schools today: Biology + Physics I/II, Chem + Organic Chem I/II, Biochemistry, Calculus, and maybe two more upper level biology courses. So, he had the core foundation of a biology degree (that's basically what the above degree is).

I don't see what the big deal is considering he ended up becoming a doctor. I just dunno why anyone would say they have a degree in biology for credibility purposes. I actually have a biology degree, and trust me it doesn't mean anything. Ask any random person with a bio degree anything about biology and you'll see what I mean. . Most of what I learned was due to my own research/curiosity outside of schoolwork.

[EDIT: At the time, in there was a national trend in the economy away from medical schools and towards business schools. This would make it more likely for prestigious school like Duke to accept someone before he/she has finished an undergraduate degree program (as long as the per-requisite classes have been completed).
http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2002/02/21/med-school-history-1980s#.VOdKDnY8rPA

Even today there are medical schools that do not require an undergraduate degree, although the chances of getting accepted are zero to none, with the market being as competitive as it is.
http://www.startmedicine.com/app/coursework.asp]

 

[hillertexas]

“.. a M.D. Degree is the study of biomedical sciences according to the Duke University School of Medicine. In other words, a M.D. is a biology degree. Merriam-Webster defines biology as ‘a branch of knowledge that deals with living organisms and vital processes.’ Dr. Paul never said he had an undergraduate degree in biology, and it is accurate for him to say that he has a biology degree. You are making inferences from his statement that are unwarranted. It is common knowledge that the study of medicine is the study of human biology, and a MD has a doctorate degree in one area of study of the science of biology.”

-Rand's senior communications director Brian Darling

 

[helmuth_hubener]

It's hard to keep a firm, strict grasp on the truth when you're playing a game all day, every day, that is all about deception and disingenuousity.

Obviously this slip is not a big deal, but it does give a glimpse into this phenomenon. For an illustration, think about it: never once has Rand given a fully honest, upfront answer when asked whether he will run for President. And it's obvious that he finds the situation quite funny and ironic, just watch the expression on his face whenever he's asked the question, but the fact remains that he's going along with the ridiculousness rather than be completely straightforward. Then multiply this by 10,000. He's doing this same thing on many issues, in many conversations, many times, every day or nearly every day. Just being a little bit disingenuous. Not telling the whole truth. Keeping a secret agenda secret. It has an effect. As I've said before, it's a risky game.

 

[acptulsa]

It's hard to keep a firm, strict grasp on the truth when you're playing a game all day, every day, that is all about deception and disingenuousity.

Obviously this slip is not a big deal, but it does give a glimpse into this phenomenon. For an illustration, think about it: never once has Rand given a fully honest, upfront answer when asked whether he will run for President. And it's obvious that he finds the situation quite funny and ironic, just watch the expression on his face whenever he's asked the question, but the fact remains that he's going along with the ridiculousness rather than be completely straightforward. Then multiply this by 10,000. He's doing this same thing on many issues, in many conversations, many times, every day or nearly every day. Just being a little bit disingenuous. Not telling the whole truth. Keeping a secret agenda secret. It has an effect. As I've said before, it's a risky game.

Why are you singling him out? It takes two sides to play a game. And the opposition side has gone far, far beyond 'just being a little bit disingenuous'. As the recent removal of medicine from the biological sciences clearly demonstrates.

 

[jmdrake]

What's funny about all of this is that the "lie" is about something less than what Rand actually has. It's like saying "I own a modest home" when you own a McMansion in the Hamptons. Cenk tries to compare Rand to Brian Williams. Brian Williams was hoping people would think better of him for having been shot down in a helicopter in Afghanistan. How exactly would Rand look better by having a mere biology degree instead of an MD?

 

[acptulsa]

What's funny about all of this is that the "lie" is about something less than what Rand actually has. It's like saying "I own a modest home" when you own a McMansion in the Hamptons.

You make a good point, but that isn't quite it either. A McMansion is not a modest home, so that would be a lie. Rand did not lie. What he did was akin to saying 'I have a sedan' when that sedan is a Bentley. That is not a lie. Modest, yes, but not dishonest.

 

[juleswin]

What's funny about all of this is that the "lie" is about something less than what Rand actually has. It's like saying "I own a modest home" when you own a McMansion in the Hamptons. Cenk tries to compare Rand to Brian Williams. Brian Williams was hoping people would think better of him for having been shot down in a helicopter in Afghanistan. How exactly would Rand look better by having a mere biology degree instead of an MD?

Very true and from the context of the conversation, he was merely trying to emphasize his own background in biology type degree which is true. There is nothing whatsoever to gain from this lie. Rand has said quite a few things where he meant it that pissed me off but this is not one. Maybe if we discover that he lied to duke about him having a BS in biology to get into medical school then and only then will I join Helmuth in the outrage with his statement about biology degree.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

Why are you singling him out?

Because I, and most on this thread, pay a whole lot more attention to Rand Paul -- and have done so for a long time -- than to other random figures, like Cenk Unger. It's just interesting.

If it were me, I would not have said -- twice -- that I had a biology degree. Economics102 wouldn't have. I wouldn't have either. I don't think you would have either. Now he was just kind of following along with what the questioner had said, he just copied his phrasing, probably without thinking about it. He said "I'm talking about something I'm not qualified to talk on, my degree is in XYZ" and Rand replied "Yeah, I'm not qualified either, maybe even less, my degree is in YZX." The point was not "I have a degree," but rather "I'm not really qualified in this". Yes, any reasonable and honest person looking at this exchange would realize this and not try to spin it into some kind of "LIE!" or "SCANDAL!". It's ridiculous, it's disingenuous, I agree. And now I've given you another talking point, another angle, with which you can defend Rand. He was just copying the phrasing of the guy he was talking to without thinking too deeply about it. That happens in conversation all the time. You don't even realize what you're saying or what you said.

So, please forgive me for also stating the obvious and making you could say a gentle little bit of criticism at Rand, but not anything new, not anything that everyone did not already know. Rand is not always completely honest and transparent in what he says. Obviously. And once you get into that habit, well, the silver tongue is slippery and can sometimes run away from you before you realize it.

 

[DP714]

Very true and from the context of the conversation, he was merely trying to emphasize his own background in biology type degree which is true. There is nothing whatsoever to gain from this lie. Rand has said quite a few things where he meant it that pissed me off but this is not one. Maybe if we discover that he lied to duke about him having a BS in biology to get into medical school then and only then will I join Helmuth in the outrage with his statement about biology degree.

At that time, Duke did not require someone to have any Biology degree, or any other undergraduate degree, before enrolling into its medical school. He would not be able to lie about having one and get in because his transcripts, which he would have to submit to Duke to prove he did pass the necessary per-requisite courses, would show that he had not finished his undergrad program. And there are still some schools that do not require one.

But yeah, I don't see what the big deal is here either.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

then will I join Helmuth in the outrage with his statement about biology degree.

I have no outrage about it. No more than I have any outrage about Rand not saying tomorrow "I think that discrimination at private businesses should be legal. That's freedom of association." or next time he is asked "You and I both know how this game works is that candidates must run unofficially for years before they officially announce. No, I am obviously not going to officially announce anything on your random, inconsequential radio/tv show. And we both also know that the way the game works is that in nearly every interview I'm in, I will be asked that question to remind people that I might be running for President. So, thank you for that." No, Rand will just smirk and get a twinkle in his eye, because something like that is definitely what he is thinking.

 

[acptulsa]

So, please forgive me for also stating the obvious and making you could say a gentle little bit of criticism at Rand, but not anything new, not anything that everyone did not already know. Rand is not always completely honest and transparent in what he says. Obviously. And once you get into that habit, well, the silver tongue is slippery and can sometimes run away from you before you realize it.

No politician is. A statesman like Ron Paul is, and a statesman tends to get crucified, too.

But Rand did not lie. What's more, there was nothing dishonest about it, this is taken out of context, and in the context it all makes perfect sense. If I have a PhD in Theoretical Physics, and the topic is the scientific method, I might just say, 'I have a degree in the physical sciences,' and I might do that for several reasons. It fits the conversation better. It doesn't distract from the subject at hand. It doesn't sound like bragging. And if everyone in the conversation knows what my degree is, the understatement is amusing and gives my words even more weight than barking out, 'I have X degree from Y school!' would.

These people are crying wolf. And the more fun we poke at them the better off we'll be. In any case, I'm disappointed in any libertarian who gets a lip full of this treble hook. There are plenty of liberals who are smart enough not to bite on it.

 

[juleswin]

I have no outrage about it. No more than I have any outrage about Rand not saying tomorrow "I think that discrimination at private businesses should be legal. That's freedom of association." or next time he is asked "You and I both know how this game works is that candidates must run unofficially for years before they officially announce. No, I am obviously not going to officially announce anything on your random, inconsequential radio/tv show. And we both also know that the way the game works is that in nearly every interview I'm in, I will be asked that question to remind people that I might be running for President. So, thank you for that." No, Rand will just smirk and get a twinkle in his eye, because something like that is definitely what he is thinking.

Maybe not outrage but I have watched you for a while here on RPF and you rarely seem to give Rand the benefit of the doubt on anything. This is something that was said the middle of a conversation, it wasn't a declaration statement but just a statement trying to point to his background in university education. But you seem to have a problem with it, I just think its a bit odd.

 

[mit26chell]

He didn't graduate from school A.
He had to make up the missing coursework at school B before or maybe concurrently in order to be accepted into the med school program. There is no way around that. He might not have been issued a diploma and gone through a graduation ceremony because of how it went down, but he technically has the degree the second he made up the missing credits and got accepted to med school.

He has the degree.

-t

Duke didn't require an undergrad degree at the time he got accepted into med school. However, Rand finished his required coursework early and was accepted into med school early.

 

[juleswin]

At that time, Duke did not require someone to have any Biology degree, or any other undergraduate degree, before enrolling into its medical school. He would not be able to lie about having one and get in because his transcripts, which he would have to submit to Duke to prove he did pass the necessary per-requisite courses, would show that he had not finished his undergrad program. And there are still some schools that do not require one.

But yeah, I don't see what the big deal is here either.

Gotcha, but the point I am trying to make is that he would be dead to me if I find out that he in any way, shape or form lied his way to med school. Be it through forging transcript, diploma etc. etc. then I would be all helmuth on his ass.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

Maybe not outrage but I have watched you for a while here on RPF and you rarely seem to give Rand the benefit of the doubt on anything.

I would be interested to know what instances you are thinking of when I did not "give Rand the benefit of the doubt". I think that probably you are confusing me with someone else. Maybe jjdoyle?

 

[helmuth_hubener]

No politician is.

Well, perhaps that's a problem. Or perhaps it isn't. Perhaps it's true. Or perhaps it isn't.

In any case, I'm disappointed in any libertarian who gets a lip full of this treble hook. There are plenty of liberals who are smart enough not to bite on it.

I am not trying to play up this "SCANDAL!". I am not agreeing with the Washington Post (Cenk is just parroting) that this is worthy of "three Pinnochios" (whatever that means). I am not going along with the liberal wolf criers or whatever. I don't really care about the day-to-day soap opera stuff of politics like this.

I was just drawing a different, unrelated point from all this, one that has nothing to do with Rand Paul. A life lesson, if you will.

Here is what he actually said, by the way, which hasn't actually been posted in this particular thread:

The Facts

Paul mentioned his alleged degree at the conference not once, but twice. First, in an exchange with TechCrunch founder Michael Arrington, Paul said:

Arrington: “Let’s talk about economics because maybe you can actually explain this to me. I have an econ degree which means I know just enough not to understand any of what our government is [inaudible]”

Paul: “Mine’s in biology and English so this is going to be a great conversation.”

Then, later in the conversation, expounding on what he considered the virtues of Bitcoin, Paul said:

“This is just me. I have a biology degree, okay? But with Bitcoin my concern always was whether or not something has real value. So I could imagine a kind of coin that was exchangeable. This gets back to the whole idea, does money have to be exchangeable for something to be of value?”
​

Notice that the WaPo takes a little dig at Paul for "expounding on what he considered the virtues of Bitcoin" when, in fact, Paul is doing no such thing. How many Pinnocios does that earn, WaPo? Hmm?

 

[economics102]

First of all those of you saying an MD is a biology degree, is it also an English degree?

Look, i have, for technicality reasons, a BA in computer science, a field where 99% of people have a BS, and i was two courses away from a second degree in English. (The reason i have a BA is because i was trying to dual major and getting a BS would have required like 30 more credits to comply with department rules). My BA degree only differs by one course from the BS degree. But i typically try to say things like "i have a bachelor's degree" or "i have a degree" in the field because i don't like causing heads to turn by saying i have a BA. And i also like to acknowledge my background in English even though i don't have that degree. But in all the years I've never once said i have a BS or said i have an English degree. Never. People work their asses off to get degrees and it's just wrong to say you have one that you don't, no matter how close you came to getting it.

I just can't fathom the mindset or character of someone who feels comfortable embellishing on something like this. As i said before, if we were taking about a politician i didn't like/trust, i would easily write them off over something like this, and those of you who are shrugging this off should realize that an awful lot of people think claiming to have degrees you don't have is an instant credibility killer along the same lines as "theft of valor" as Brian Williams found out.

 

[juleswin]

First of all those of you saying an MD is a biology degree, is it also an English degree?

Look, i have, for technicality reasons, a BA in computer science, a field where 99% of people have a BS, and i was two courses away from a second degree in English. (The reason i have a BA is because i was trying to dual major and getting a BS would have required like 30 more credits to comply with department rules). My BA degree only differs by one course from the BS degree. But i typically try to say things like "i have a bachelor's degree" or "i have a degree" in the field because i don't like causing heads to turn by saying i have a BA. And i also like to acknowledge my background in English even though i don't have that degree. But in all the years I've never once said i have a BS or said i have an English degree. Never. People work their asses off to get degrees and it's just wrong to say you have one that you don't, no matter how close you came to getting it.

I just can't fathom the mindset or character of someone who feels comfortable embellishing on something like this. As i said before, if we were taking about a politician i didn't like/trust, i would easily write them off over something like this, and those of you who are shrugging this off should realize that an awful lot of people think claiming to have degrees you don't have is an instant credibility killer along the same lines as "theft of valor" as Brian Williams found out.

He could be talking about a minor which most people don't always specify in the middle of a conversation. I sometimes tell people I have a degree in biology and chemistry when in fact I have a degree in bio technology (biology degree with calc instead of ecology) and my chemistry is a minor degree which I completed the credits for in my junior year. Its one think if he said it in a more formal setting than just something that came out during a discussion.

This is no big deal, find a better reason for me not to trust him and move the hell on. This doesn't' do it for me

 

[economics102]

This is no big deal, find a better reason for me not to trust him and move the hell on.

I'm not telling you, an RPF member, not to trust him, I'm telling you that stuff like this is going to cause a lot of other people are going to not trust him, and why even people like me who usually defend him really can't defend behavior like this. Look through my post history, I'm not one of the members who is constantly bashing Rand. I'm just telling you that to a lot of people claiming to have degrees you don't have is not an understandable embellishment, it's a very black-and-white lie.

He could be talking about a minor which most people don't always specify in the middle of a conversation.

I've never heard any credible person claim to have a degree in a subject when they in fact only had a minor.

Let's not live in a bubble here. If any politician we disliked did this, we'd be jumping all over it. He's running for a major public office. If someone were in a regular job interview and twice misstated their academic credentials, it wouldn't end well.

The reason I'm harping on this is because if Rand wants to run for president he needs to not do things like this. Again, unless the goal is to steal news cycles with mini-scandal after mini-scandal. And maybe it is, I mean that might actually be kinda clever. But I digress.