Winning over the religious right

[scottditzen]

For the sake of discussion, the public support for Indian wars was very high back then.

But have to agree with you, most people I know who could be called "religious right" are indeed very diverse, the majority are peace loving, kind and generous well reasoned people.

The premise of your question is faulty.

The anti-war sentiment was strongest when Christianity held much greater cultural sway (the founding).

It is not Christianity that is the cause for war sentiments on the left and the right, it is statism.

 

[georgiaboy]

Well approaching them calling them names or ignorant definitely isn't the way to go.
Approach something from an angle they can support and work your ideas around that.

I'm not sure the best approach on war and such other than emphasizing things taught in their religion such as their religious leader saying things like "those who live by the sword die by the sword", and show how non-violent resistance is the moral way to go about it. Lead by example in that regard.

Also ths:


Do you want to be around people who WANT to be moral, around people who share your values. Or do you want to be around people who probably don't but are simply forced to. Personally I want to live in a society where everyone is moral because they want to be, because it is who they are. It means nothing to me if people are only "moral" because the law makes them such.

We need to change people's minds and hearts, that isn't done through the law.

+rep

 

[georgiaboy]

Just curious how effective RP could be winning over the religious right? I believe I read somewhere that RP has two brothers that are ordained ministers, yes? While I think many Christians are very unChrist-like, I wonder how effect RP could be in getting the neo con war hawks to find that speck of compassion within them that is what in Christian terms is called the holy spirit and loose the advocation of war as a means of bringing about peace in the spirit of Jesus. So much Jesus talk and yet so little Jesus action. Kind of reminds me of the clip of the grinch who's heart grew 10 fold on Christmas day.... is it possible for the war hawks to not only find their hearts but also rationally realize we are broke in large part of trying to police the world over the last 50 years or so?

I think it's possible, and I think we're doing it, but it's gonna take some more doing. I think we do have to be careful to separate out the RR as a political group vs. a spiritual group that we lump all of American Christendom into.

 

[realtonygoodwin]

Maybe I'm on everyone's ignore list or something, but I am not Catholic...I was straight up a non-denominational, mega-church, evangelical Christian...still am, but leaning Reformed now... (Thanks to John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Matt Chandler, Wayne Grudem, etc.)

 

[LinusVanPelt]

Yeah? Ask a sample of Christians whether they'd like to 1) end the wars or 2) have stiff penalties put in place for adultery.
See how that survey turns out, then get back to me on that war sentiment thing.

Have you done such a survey? Do you belong to a Christian church?

This Christian can "get back to you" right now because I belong to a Christian community inlcuding folks from different Churches and denominations. Here are the results of my ongoing, twenty-year survey: you are ignorant.

Christianity - American Christianity, that is - is perfectly comfortable with bombing brown people. There's a slight minority that is ardently against war, but the overwhelming majority is willing to throw Romans 13 at the issue until we support the troops enough to exterminate every last freedom-hating commie pinko terrorist muslim chicom untermensch in the world.

Make that extremely ignorant. Are you trying to sound foolish?

Christians, don't get riled by this statement: it's a valid criticism. RonPaulNation took it in a different direction, so get mad at him. But RCA's comment should inspire us to look within ourselves.
His statement may not be exactly apropos when considering the religious right, but when you look at what's going on outside of southern evangelicalism, it's an abject mess. There is zero critical thought that goes into "I'm gonna go to church at the place where I get theater seating, a rock concert, and a mocha latte".

Who are you to judge anyone's critical thinking? You're the one who claims to support a man who is a devoted American Christian while claiming that "American Christianity is perfectly comfortable with bombing brown people."

I'm not sure if you're aware how incredibly ridiculous that makes you sound, but rather than imploring others to "look within" themselves, maybe you should look outside yourself and your ignorant stereotypes for a brief moment and educate yourself about reality.

In the coming years, the RR is going to detach itself from politics -

Haha, you really must be joking. I'm gonna have to see some evidence that you actually believe the absurd things you're saying before I dignify them with any more responses.

You have now officially joined "RonPaulNation.Org" on my list of lefty trolls who get a kick out of imitating Ron Paul supporters.

 

[GuerrillaXXI]

Just curious how effective RP could be winning over the religious right? I believe I read somewhere that RP has two brothers that are ordained ministers, yes? While I think many Christians are very unChrist-like, I wonder how effect RP could be in getting the neo con war hawks to find that speck of compassion within them that is what in Christian terms is called the holy spirit and loose the advocation of war as a means of bringing about peace in the spirit of Jesus. So much Jesus talk and yet so little Jesus action. Kind of reminds me of the clip of the grinch who's heart grew 10 fold on Christmas day.... is it possible for the war hawks to not only find their hearts but also rationally realize we are broke in large part of trying to police the world over the last 50 years or so?

I'm no longer religious, but as a former Christian I'm familiar enough with Jesus' teachings to be as frustrated as you are with the hypocrisy of so many mainstream "conservative Christians." I have little doubt that if Jesus were to return tomorrow, most of those people would condemn him: "U R a librul hippie who doesnt suport are troops!!!1!!!" Those people are pro-life when it comes to abortion, but they're pro-death on just about every other issue. "Blessed are the peacemakers" means nothing to them -- or they think it means "peace through superior firepower." No, not all Christians are like this, but far too many are. (I don't claim to be a pacifist myself, but I sure as hell don't support unnecessary wars.)

Another aspect of the problem is that many of these people are emotionally invested in Armageddon. They like the idea that the US is taking part in some great and noble crusade against the forces of evil. In particular, millions have been brainwashed by religious con artists like John Hagee into thinking that modern Israel is the fulfillment of a prophecy, and their loyalty to that country is steadfast. Basically, they think that the US has a duty to sacrifice whatever is necessary for the benefit of Israel. That generally means fighting wars against Muslims to make way for "Greater Israel."

If there's any way to counter this, I think it's incumbent on people who really do understand the Bible to explain to these people how they're wrong -- that "Abraham's children" in the Bible refers to people who do God's will, not those who are merely physically descended from Abraham. The New Testament makes this clear again and again -- some of the most obvious passages are John 8:34-47 and Galatians 3:28-29 -- but most of these people don't even read their Bibles, so they're not aware of how un-biblical their beliefs are. Israel "fulfilled prophecy" because a bunch of people who believed that Israel was destined to be created again made it happen. God had nothing to do with it, and if God were on Israel's side, Israel wouldn't need to have AIPAC pulling the strings of "our" elected officials.

In a word, I don't think Ron Paul himself can do much about this. I think it's up to the rest of us to point out where these people are wrong. Will they listen? Probably not, but it's worth a try.

 

[LinusVanPelt]

Maybe I'm on everyone's ignore list or something, but I am not Catholic...I was straight up a non-denominational, mega-church, evangelical Christian...still am, but leaning Reformed now... (Thanks to John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Matt Chandler, Wayne Grudem, etc.)

Don't feel bad. If you're referring to folks like "RonPaulNation.Org" and "fisharmor," I guess Ron paul himself is also on their ignore list, as well as anybody who doesn't fit into their bigoted, small-minded, ignorant worldview.

 

[outspoken]

It is interesting how being 'Christian' can take on many forms in America. To be honest, it does not mean a whole lot to call oneself a follower or believer other than to acknowledge a belief in Higher Power/Creator. People use Christ to advocate for socialism/social justice, warfare, and then of course libertarianism. I was raised Catholic and went every week like a good little boy but never got much out of it. I found the Catholic Church to be too authoritarian in nature, like just another form of big brother government telling me how to think and feel. It kind of pissed me off to be honest. I always had a deep seeded sense that they were hypocritical and I disagreed with some of their belief systems that labels females as somehow inferior/less capable of sprirituality to men and that you were somehow more holy if you were celebate. Personally, I think to deny ourselves our natural instinct to have sexual relations (through monogamy of course) is not only good but psychologically healthy. Only later did my suspicions prove somewhat true with all the stories coming out of molestation with the Church. So I left religion altogether for many years and my family saw me as a disbeliever even though I mostly just lost my faith the Catholic Church. I even dabbled a little in eastern religion and thought which many Christians abhore usually out of fear of the unknown. How can you really know your faith if you have never arrived at it using an objective scientific method which involves studying all faiths to some extent. I think that eastern philosophy/religion has something to teach us as it is not so cluttered with dogmatic, indoctrinated layers of mindless repetition. I was blessed though to have discovered the Methodist Church through my wife and renewed my Christian faith. That's about all I have to say about that....

I guess really what it comes down to is really WHO is the religious right? It has no absolute definition, much of it advocates for a very strong State just like the left. As for many gen X'ers like myself, the grip of accepting anything from authoritative tranferance as truth is loosening and I think many are beginning to really question everything whether it be religion or government. The greatest enlightenment comes from Knowing Thy Self. I think many professed Atheists today arrive at such a place because it is easier emotionally and time-wise to just not believe rather than delving into one's own consciousness and sinful nature and finding God working within us when we choose that path of light and truth. Also, it takes a certain level of humility to believe without it turning into a pride thing which can lead to a means of bullying others who do not believe as you do.

 

[pcosmar]

This guy was a strong supporter of Ron Paul and only entered the race after Dr. Paul dropped out.
He was also endorsed by Ron Paul.

 

[LinusVanPelt]

As for many gen X'ers like myself, the grip of accepting anything from authoritative tranferance as truth is loosening and I think many are beginning to really question everything whether it be religion or government.

Young people have been thinking that for at least a couple thousand years. You can even see the same sentiments in classical political literature from ancient Greece and Rome.

The baby boomers also thought they were throwing off the shackles of conformity and authoritarianism. Instead most of them became vapid, materialistic, drug-and-sex addicted cretins spouting vague, secular, new-age platitudes and mumbo-jumbo.

Meanwhile, since the 60's the US has become increasingly more and more authoritarian and the war machine has become bigger and more powerful than ever.

What makes you think "genreation X' or Y or whoever will be any different? I'm sorry, but you're deluding yourself.

Since non-Christians see fit to pass so much judgment on the psychology and motivations of Christians, let me return the favor to you secular, quasi-atheistic/agnostic folks: You will subscribe to "positive secularism" and happy humanism for as long as your youthful energy can keep up, until about your mid-30's or 40's, then the hollowness and emptiness of such feelings will slowly consume you and you will end up just as cynical and sold-out as the baby boomers who are in power now, probably more so.

Man cannot end war, man cannot create heaven on earth or peace for all people. Man cannot solve the problems created by man's own nature. But with God all things are possible. With God a man can find peace in the place where it is most important and the place where it must begin if it is ever to envelop the world: in the heart of one individual person.

 

[LinusVanPelt]

Here's an article that seems to relate directly to this thread's topic, from the ultra-conservative Catholic magazine New Oxford Review:

Exodus & Bloodbath
Days before a massacre of Christians in Baghdad, Iraq's Chaldean Patriarch warned of a 'Satanic plan' to drive Christians out of the Middle East.

"As we’ve written in these pages before, the world tends to turn a blind eye to the persecution of Christians throughout the world, whether by Hindus in India or Muslims in Indonesia, Sudan, or Iraq. It is not a politically correct topic, and the U.S. media — perhaps due to general ignorance of the world beyond our borders — often takes the attitude that Christians most likely deserve it. Westerners often cannot accept the fact that in certain parts of the world Christians are a tiny minority — and in many of these places they are not accorded the kind of religious liberty that Americans and Europeans have come to expect in modern society...."

http://www.newoxfordreview.org/note.jsp?did=1210-notes-exodus

 

[outspoken]

well said Linus... with age comes wisdom. Thanks for your perspective. I admit I reached that point of hollowness that you speak of in my 30's which was my catalyst for returning to my Christian roots... although many Christians would love to bash me they way I accept my faith as I am a scientist and believe in evolution and value the gnostic perspective of greater teachers like Carl Jung. I consider myself all the better and more well rounded though for stepping outside of the Christian mainstream. I have no intentions of ever entering into any belief system ever popular or not that does not permit the assimilation of my understanding/appreciation of science and psychology.

It is rather unfortunate that Jesus died after only a few years of ministry. I'd like to ask God why Jesus didn't live longer to teach us more or why he did not compile a book like say Muhammad. What we got was a collection of stories from people written years later trying to put together the pieces of a very complex puzzle. That said, I presume what we have is what we need to know. God really does work in mysterious ways.

 

[georgiaboy]

A big chunk of the RR political demographic, and even the larger conservative demographic, is just plain afraid these days. They're still afraid because of 9/11. They are afraid for what they see as the disappearance of the traditional American culture. They are afraid because of the economy. Or maybe they're being told to be afraid of these things by their political influences, so they buy into the fear. They're fighting this fear with authoritarian politics and policies as a way to keep control.

If there's one thing I've learned as a Christian, it's to not be ruled by fear. That's what puzzles me about the so-called Religious Right. Why are they so afraid? "If God is for us, who can be against us", right?

9/11 has you afraid that 1 Billion Muslims are going to arm up and invade the US, so we need to go keep our thumbs on them? Ridiculous!

Traditional American culture? What's that really, has it really always been there, and is it the job of the gov't to enforce it? No and no.

The economy is going to get better by what means? More of the same that got us here? Of course not.

Afraid of what might happen if we really try and implement some true conservative policies, of what upheaval might happen? So keep going down the road we're on instead?

C'mon, just how big is your God?

 

[ChaosControl]

They are afraid for what they see as the disappearance of the traditional American culture.

I'm with them on this. I absolutely loathe modern society. It is flat out sickening. It is harder and harder to find the kind of community that is even tolerable to live in, let alone that is actively good. Even my supposedly "rural" city is pretty bad anymore, not major urban area bad, but bad nonetheless.

 

[silentshout]

You do realize that if someone is Gen X, then they are already IN their mid-30s to mid-40s. Hardly "young". Some people return to their christian roots, some do not. I definitely did not. but just because I am not religious doze not mean I am materialistic, vapid, or whatever.

Young people have been thinking that for at least a couple thousand years. You can even see the same sentiments in classical political literature from ancient Greece and Rome.

The baby boomers also thought they were throwing off the shackles of conformity and authoritarianism. Instead most of them became vapid, materialistic, drug-and-sex addicted cretins spouting vague, secular, new-age platitudes and mumbo-jumbo.

Meanwhile, since the 60's the US has become increasingly more and more authoritarian and the war machine has become bigger and more powerful than ever.

What makes you think "genreation X' or Y or whoever will be any different? I'm sorry, but you're deluding yourself.

Since non-Christians see fit to pass so much judgment on the psychology and motivations of Christians, let me return the favor to you secular, quasi-atheistic/agnostic folks: You will subscribe to "positive secularism" and happy humanism for as long as your youthful energy can keep up, until about your mid-30's or 40's, then the hollowness and emptiness of such feelings will slowly consume you and you will end up just as cynical and sold-out as the baby boomers who are in power now, probably more so.

Man cannot end war, man cannot create heaven on earth or peace for all people. Man cannot solve the problems created by man's own nature. But with God all things are possible. With God a man can find peace in the place where it is most important and the place where it must begin if it is ever to envelop the world: in the heart of one individual person.

 

[outspoken]

It is hard to get a person who is black to not identify so strongly with their fellow black leaders regardless of their political views. It is almost as if they judge on the color of their skin rather than the content of their character! When I am looking at throwing my support at someone, I could care less whether they are black or white and I would think that celebrities of all people should know better as skin color all looks the same under the lime light. I'd like to think we would have moved beyond that by now.....

 

[fisharmor]

Do you belong to a Christian church?

No.
Wanna know why?
Because I did belong to a "Christian" church. In the DC suburbs. Run by government robots.
People who took their day job mentality to council meetings.
Their religion is their work. They go to services and one or two weekly meetings to get their rubber stamp from the almighty.
In the end, they have a mission - generally to cram butts in pews - and just like in their day jobs, a lot of them are perfectly willing to do all sorts of morally questionable things in pursuit of that mission.
Call out these questionable things to their faces, and it gets you targeted for more questionable things. Eventually the questionable part is dropped.
I've seen it in more than one place, more than one denomination.

I've been to a lot of churches around here across lots of different denominations - and it's always got the people going to services there who are running the damned wars.
Kick it upstairs, you say? Good luck. If there is an upstairs, the best you'll find is silence on the issue.
Most churches here have shrines set up in the Narthex to give glory where they think it most appropriate: to the troops.

I don't know what it's like in Oregon. That's what it's like here: that's what it's like for those who are running the war.
When people transfer in, they get a 50-60 hour dose of war and statism during the week, they spend all Saturday cutting the grass around the McMansion we paid for, and on Sunday they get a special reinforcement from their god.

Then they'll transfer out, and go back out to the rest of the country, and export this mentality to other churches.

Just to clarify, I still attend worship services every week and attend two bible studies. My brother-in-law is a priest. I'm not some atheist God-hater.

I am not joining a church. I attend one where the Pastor at least recognizes the unChristian abuses that happen here as a result of all of this, and realizes that I will not join because he does not speak out against them. I put him in an awkward position. He doesn't bother me about joining.

I don't think that anybody will ever get anywhere with the warmongers' mentality. It's programmed. The bottom line is that for some people Christianity is nothing more than a work-approved social club, with the extra benefit of granting some moral high ground for the underhanded things they do every day.
I'm not saying it's all, or even a majority.
Just the ones who are in charge of the war.

The rest of them, around the rest of the country? I stand by my statement that the majority is ok with bombing brown people. If it wasn't a majority, you'd find more leaders who are willing to speak out against it, and you can't argue that there are more American Christian religious leaders speaking out against the war than there are speaking in favor of it.

Perhaps if there were leaders who would call out what happens around here, perhaps then our overlords - the people I attend services with - would have cause to stop and think about what they're doing. Perhaps if they didn't have god's rubber stamp for the wars, things might be different. Maybe you can do something out in the rest of the country. Here, they're more worried about internet porn.

 

[scottditzen]

I'm with them on this. I absolutely loathe modern society. It is flat out sickening. It is harder and harder to find the kind of community that is even tolerable to live in, let alone that is actively good. Even my supposedly "rural" city is pretty bad anymore, not major urban area bad, but bad nonetheless.

Hey Chaos. Not to pick a fight, but I'm curious as to when exactly our traditional society was not flat out sickening.

When our American past is rife with horrible abuses of personal freedom, what period in time would you want to go back to?

 

[ChaosControl]

Hey Chaos. Not to pick a fight, but I'm curious as to when exactly our traditional society was not flat out sickening.

When our American past is rife with horrible abuses of personal freedom, what period in time would you want to go back to?

It isn't simply about personal freedom. It is about the society values in general. Even though I am not religious myself, I share their basic values. And while the image of the past is often idealized and many of what we want from the past never exist, it was still at least slightly more common back then. At the least you had a two parent household as more common than it is now, you had more often a parent who stayed home with their children instead of outsourcing their responsibilities to a third party, you had media that wasn't full of smut. I mean look at shows like Leave it to Beaver and compare it with modern trash like Friends. There was plenty of bad then and somethings have improved, but why do we just drop all the positive attributes too? Why not take the good of the past and get rid of the bad so we can have the best for the future?

I want a community that wants high moral values, that is populated with people who have a lot of personal integrity. I miss the days you could leave your house unlocked all day and not worry about it whatsoever.

Trying to find anyone who is chaste, pure-hearted, loyal, etc seems next to impossible. Even less likely if you take out those who are religious.

 

[Paul Revered]

Just curious how effective RP could be winning over the religious right? I believe I read somewhere that RP has two brothers that are ordained ministers, yes? While I think many Christians are very unChrist-like, I wonder how effect RP could be in getting the neo con war hawks to find that speck of compassion within them that is what in Christian terms is called the holy spirit and loose the advocation of war as a means of bringing about peace in the spirit of Jesus. So much Jesus talk and yet so little Jesus action. Kind of reminds me of the clip of the grinch who's heart grew 10 fold on Christmas day.... is it possible for the war hawks to not only find their hearts but also rationally realize we are broke in large part of trying to police the world over the last 50 years or so?

The religious right? How do you define Right? If you define it as being a war hawk, you should also look to the Left. If you would get to the root of the matter your post wouldn't be so offensive and divisive. You'll win over the religious, by appealing to their religious beliefs. For Christians, the foundation of these beliefs can be found in the Bible. If you have any specific questions which are related to the Bible, here is an excellent resource: www.biblegateway.com. If you have any further questions, I, and I'm sure many others, would be glad to help you.