Why the modest inflation?

Market-makers in any market don't make 1% per transaction, nowhere close to that.

And if market-makers didn't exist then Treasury-markets would be so illiquid & spreads would be so high that Treasury would get peanuts for issuing debt, compared to the deal they are getting now.

And yes, there are profits to be made but nowhere near as much as is portrayed & not without its associated risks but I don't see how making profits for providing a service is wrong :confused: The point is that system exists to support the government-borrowing & we live in majority-rule system so if the majority could change things if they want to but they clearly don't want to or we'd probably see Ron Paul in charge.

And in today's news, we see that Goldman Sachs certainly believes that there is real money to be made. So much money in fact, that they will risk bribing politicians to get the business:

Goldman to pay $12 million to settle "pay-to-play" probe

A former vice president in Goldman's Boston office, Neil Morrison, worked on the campaign of Timothy Cahill around the same time that he was also soliciting underwriting business from the Massachusetts treasurer's office, the Securities and Exchange Commission said.

http://news.yahoo.com/goldman-pay-12-million-settle-pay-play-probe-145251479--sector.html
 
That's a direct quote of yours. Click on the arrow. YOU SAID THAT.

It's a misleading quote because it's totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand & it was said in a completely different context - it was said with respect to the fact that any tax is theft - BUT PDs don't have power to tax, they don't steal from anyone, they don't create money, Fed/government creates money & Fed/government would be doing so whether PDs existed or not. PDs simply get what they get as an income for their services, & the last time I checked, earning something for providing a service in VOLUNTARY way is NOT considered stealing!
Besides, PDs DON'T always make profits, they make losses too & there are real risk to being a PD as well & if you do some research then you'll find that some PDs made losses & went out of business because there are no guaranteed profits as some of you seem to assume; most of them end up in profits because they are really good at trading.
 
Under an ostensibly sound currency (no central control or manipulation), in a regime where banks and lending institutions are held accountable, and are not subject to public backing or bailouts, there is always a concern about bank solvency, as there rightly was in the past, given the real risks involved. It's not that I expect most would store their money in mattresses, coffee cans, or home safes; only that they could, and that many would (as many did in the past), secure in the knowledge that the value isn't being centrally manipulated and deliberately eroded.

I agree, on all points. Even Keynes himself knew that under the worst case scenario the market would equilibrate long term. With inflation, on the other hand, there is no ceiling, and a hyper-inflationary spiral is no myth, as we have too many real world examples of that nightmare scenario playing out.

Yes, people "could" save under the mattress but most wouldn't because it would be less rewarding. Of course, people will always hold some cash on hand irrespective of the system, just to meet their immediate expenditure BUT as I've said, supply of money/credit would be quite limited if there was a free market in money, & as we know - lower supply = higher prices - meaning, the price of borrowing money/credit [aka (real) interest] would be higher, meaning there would be greater incentive for people to save & deposit/lend, so if anything, banks would be in business a lot more.
 
Market-making is a separate subject. (And I would not go as far as to call it "doing God's work", like Lloyd Blankfein might).

Granted, it is nice to have a place to sell a Treasury that I have purchased before maturity. An exchange or market maker works nicely for that. In the case where a person buys direct from the government, and holds to maturity, there is no need for a market maker or an exchange. That is how a lot of government debt worked when ordinary people bought US Savings bonds (and we infamously "owed it to ourselves"). And if they wanted to sell them early, they could turn them in at a value less than full maturity value.

I have a problem with the fact that there is no longer competition in the Treasury auction process. No buyers? The interest rate must go up (price comes down). But no, instead the government will buy it all! It would be nice to run a business like that. "This widget costs $10,000. Too expensive and nobody wants to buy? Gee, I'll buy it from myself. Let me do the appropriate journal entries and wow, look at the money I just made!"

It's not that there's no competition, there are dozens of PDs & each one dealing in its own self-interest & buying/selling accordingly so of course, there's competition. Now, I understand that you want the process to be open to everyone, the fact is that the system of PDs enables Treasury to rake in more money through every debt-issue & that's why it exists.

Just like market-makers on exchanges usually have agreements to be ready to buy/sell certain amounts of the given instrument(s), PDs would also have agreements with the government to buy/sell certain amounts of Treasuries, as deemed necessary by the government to keep the market liquid & spreads low & for this benefit government receives, the government is willing to let PDs have the privilege to be the first ones to bid on newer issues.

As I've said, the assumption that PDs are automatically profitable is fallacious as some PDs did end up making losses & going out of business, it's like any other business, yes, there are profits to be made (no guarantees though) but there are risks as well since they have to fulfill agreements whether they are making profits or losses.
 
Yes, people "could" save under the mattress but most wouldn't because it would be less rewarding.

Less rewarding as opposed to more punishing and destructive, as we have now with the Keynesian theft nightmare regime we're all forced to live under.

Of course, people will always hold some cash on hand irrespective of the system, just to meet their immediate expenditure...

Having "cash on hand" is not the only reason people would hold "cash", any more than I hold PM's, as for many others it would have nothing whatsoever to do with 'immediate' expenditures, and everything to do with accumulation of capital over time that is not stolen from them.

As of now, the value currency holdings, regardless where they are held, is so much sand in an artificial hourglass. If there was a free market in money (no legal tender laws, and banks not propped up and protected in their inherent insolvency by a Mommy counterfeiter), you would see banks exposed to much more risk, with many actually failing. That would result, as it has so many times in the past, in A Very Healthy Distrust for banks that would return to the market. That is A Very Good Thing Indeed, because ordinary individuals, and not just "the people", would realize that they are also exposed to the very real risks that go along with the possibilities of those greater rewards you mentioned of being a depositor/lender to lending institutions.

BUT as I've said, supply of money/credit would be quite limited if there was a free market in money...

The supply of debt/money from banks, yes.

..., & as we know - lower supply = higher prices...

Lower supply equates to higher prices only if demand (the willingness and ability to buy at a given price) remains constant. Both supply and demand are contingent on both the ability and willingness on the parts of buyers and sellers at a given price.

Right now, even with negative interest rates, actual economic supply is very low for money from banks to average individuals and firms, despite high demand on the side of those buyers who are both willing and able. That same supply, however, is very high to select entities in the market.

Banks are able to supply but not willing to lend to anyone without a superior credit rating or superior equity in collateral as a guarantee. Large non-financial firms that have those superior credit ratings (Microsoft, Apple, Cisco, etc.,) are taking advantage of this by taking on massive amounts of low interest debt with cash balances that are hoarded without investing. They can and do hoard cash because it gives them greater solvency - greater staying power - while feeling that they are in little danger of losing value in the process at those interest rates.

- meaning, the price of borrowing money/credit [aka (real) interest] would be higher, meaning there would be greater incentive for people to save & deposit/lend, so if anything, banks would be in business a lot more.

You are saying, in essence, that banks will be willing to lend less (lower supply) at a greater price. Lower supply at a greater price, however can be a zero sum game. You made no mention of actual demand -- the other necessary component for a market price to even be established, which is never constant.

In a free currency market, interest rates are established dynamically by both supply and demand. Your assumption is that most people would lend their currency holdings (the ONLY supply) to banks. However, interest rates in a free currency market cannot rise without increased demand. If those interest rates, which are nothing but asking prices on the parts of various lenders, are set too high, demand (willingness and ability to borrow at those rates) will fall, and along with that, the price of debt from banks.

It sounds like you think I am claiming that banks would somehow dry up and blow away under a sound currency in a free market in currency. That is not my claim, nor is it the point I am making at all. My point is that lending institutions would be forced to actually compete for money to lend from its only real sources, and not just to satisfy an arbitrary reserve balance sheet requirement set by some central controller. I don't care how much less or more economic activity banks would have, or how many people would prefer to engage in lending to them, or what the price of debt would be from them.

My only point is that the practice of stashing money into safes, mattresses and coffee cans would increase, because there is no risk of losing value in the process (no forced investments on the absolute knowledge that the perpetually debased currency will LOSE value), while the incentive to lend to lending institutions would involve real risks of losses that a portion of the population would not be willing to take. THAT is what would cause the supply of money available from lending institutions to decrease. But that does NOT mean that supply of money to the economy dries up in the aggregate, because capital is still being accumulated privately. That capital is spent over time, given that there is no reason whatsoever to hoard money indefinitely, as that would serve no purpose.
 
Last edited:
It's a misleading quote because it's totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand & it was said in a completely different context - it was said with respect to the fact that any tax is theft - BUT PDs don't have power to tax, they don't steal from anyone, they don't create money, Fed/government creates money & Fed/government would be doing so whether PDs existed or not. PDs simply get what they get as an income for their services, & the last time I checked, earning something for providing a service in VOLUNTARY way is NOT considered stealing!
Besides, PDs DON'T always make profits, they make losses too & there are real risk to being a PD as well & if you do some research then you'll find that some PDs made losses & went out of business because there are no guaranteed profits as some of you seem to assume; most of them end up in profits because they are really good at trading.

If you accept that the Federal Reserve is stealing from the American People and this is a crime against all of us (and if you don't agree with that you're in the wrong forum), then, yes, the PD's are dealing in stolen money and are thus criminals:

Wikipedia said:
A fence is an individual who knowingly buys stolen property for later resale, sometimes in a legitimate market. The fence thus acts as a middleman between thieves and the eventual buyers of stolen goods who may not be aware that the goods are stolen. As a verb, the word describes the behavior of the thief in the transaction: The burglar fenced the stolen radio. This sense of the term came from thieves' slang, first attested c. 1700, from notion of such transactions taking place under defence of secrecy.[1]
The fence is able to make a profit with stolen merchandise because he is able to pay thieves a very low price for stolen goods. The fence then disguises the stolen nature of the goods, if possible, so that he or she can sell them closer to the usual wholesale price.

Fencing is illegal in the US
 
If you accept that the Federal Reserve is stealing from the American People and this is a crime against all of us (and if you don't agree with that you're in the wrong forum), then, yes, the PD's are dealing in stolen money and are thus criminals:

Yeah but if that's the case then everybody working for the government is dealing with stolen goods. Every road construction company, every public teacher, every cleaning worker and janitor at public buildings, everybody collecting Social Security and even Ron Paul.

And you might even argue that technically this is indeed the case. However I believe the system is too screwed up at this point to single out some groups and argue from a moral point of view. I'd be fine with every PD who is not advocating for the FED's existence and who does not try to justify what he does as being the only way to go.

A trader is looking for profits in the market place, be it because of arbitrage or better estimation of future values. That's his job and that's what he does. He doesn't differentiate between "good money" and "bad money". In a truly free market, his service would always be valuable to society or he would go out of business. And besides government bonds or without government in general, financial speculation does provide many benefits, like lower price volatility, lower transaction costs, risk-hedging, etc.

The individual trader usually doesn't care where the money comes from. It's not his job to think about that. His job is to find possible trade profits, which is - again - beneficial in a free market. And most likely he has never in his whole life thought about the Federal Reserve System as the root of all evil, or of new bonds as stealing from the public, just like most people in economics departments don't. It's not reasonable to assume that traders think entirely different about the issue than the economic mainstream. Just like the average teacher doesn't view his paycheck as financed with stolen goods.

The casual root of this problem is the government, coercively facilitating this scheme around the Fed. The solution is to let the people know why central banking has negative effects on their lifes. Not to blame PDs. That won't do any good. Get rid of the Fed and PDs go with it.
 
Yeah but if that's the case then everybody working for the government is dealing with stolen goods. Every road construction company, every public teacher, every cleaning worker and janitor at public buildings, everybody collecting Social Security and even Ron Paul.

And you might even argue that technically this is indeed the case. However I believe the system is too screwed up at this point to single out some groups and argue from a moral point of view. I'd be fine with every PD who is not advocating for the FED's existence and who does not try to justify what he does as being the only way to go.

A trader is looking for profits in the market place, be it because of arbitrage or better estimation of future values. That's his job and that's what he does. He doesn't differentiate between "good money" and "bad money". In a truly free market, his service would always be valuable to society or he would go out of business. And besides government bonds or without government in general, financial speculation does provide many benefits, like lower price volatility, lower transaction costs, risk-hedging, etc.

The individual trader usually doesn't care where the money comes from. It's not his job to think about that. His job is to find possible trade profits, which is - again - beneficial in a free market. And most likely he has never in his whole life thought about the Federal Reserve System as the root of all evil, or of new bonds as stealing from the public, just like most people in economics departments don't. It's not reasonable to assume that traders think entirely different about the issue than the economic mainstream. Just like the average teacher doesn't view his paycheck as financed with stolen goods.

The casual root of this problem is the government, coercively facilitating this scheme around the Fed. The solution is to let the people know why central banking has negative effects on their lifes. Not to blame PDs. That won't do any good. Get rid of the Fed and PDs go with it.

+1

Great post!

Hit all the right points! :)
 
It's theft... but it's ok, because a) he doesn't know its theft and b) everybody is doing it. Great argument!

If you think these bankers don't center their portfolios around the profits they get from the Fed... think again. They know exactly what they are doing.
 
Last edited:
However, interest rates in a free currency market cannot rise without increased demand.

There's always demand for money & credit......please don't go Bernanke on me :D, who says that stuff like "there's low demand", no, there's always demand, the question is whether the supply is high enough to offer low enough prices so that buyers can buy more!
Accordingly, as the supply of credit would be quite limited if there was a free market in money, price of credit (real interest) would naturally be pretty high & that would provide more incentive for the savers to deposit with banks.

My only point is that the practice of stashing money into safes, mattresses and coffee cans would increase, because there is no risk of losing value in the process (no forced investments on the absolute knowledge that the perpetually debased currency will LOSE value), while the incentive to lend to lending institutions would involve real risks of losses that a portion of the population would not be willing to take. THAT is what would cause the supply of money available from lending institutions to decrease. But that does NOT mean that supply of money to the economy dries up in the aggregate, because capital is still being accumulated privately. That capital is spent over time, given that there is no reason whatsoever to hoard money indefinitely, as that would serve no purpose.

You somehow seem to assume that people invest because we live in an inflationary system, when in fact, people invest because they want a return on their capital & people will always prefer to earn a return on their capital whether they live in inflationary system or a deflationary one.

The thing is that an inflationary system benefits borrowers & spenders so it doesn't incentivize savings much at all (whether under the mattress or in the banks), while a deflationary system benefits savers & lenders so of course, there's a higher incentive (higher real interest) to save & lend.

As for the risks of bank-failures go, in a truly free market, most of the banks would naturally be very sound because unsound ones would go out of business pretty quickly & of course, most people would definitely find it palatable to earn a high real interest on their capital (savings leftover after considering their regular expenditure) by depositting with a sound bank than stashing it under a mattress.
 
Last edited:
It's theft... but it's ok, because a) he doesn't know its theft and b) everybody is doing it. Great argument!

If you think these bankers don't center their portfolios around the profits they get from the Fed... think again. They know exactly what they are doing.

It's not theft because PDs don't create money, they don't exert coercion on anyone, they are providing a VOLUNTARY service & whatever they earn is for the SERVICE they are providing.
 
There's always demand for money & credit......please don't go Bernanke on me :D, who says that stuff like "there's low demand", no, there's always demand, the question is whether the supply is high enough to offer low enough prices so that buyers can buy more!

Actually, I wouldn't argue with Bernanke, because he reasons everything strictly from a Keynesian macro-economics framework. That fucking idiot doesn't account for the fact that demand, on a micro-economics level, is based on willingness AND ABILITY.

There is a TON of "demand" for money, if we only look at willingness to borrow. But that is not the economics definition of demand. That's a shit in one hand, want in the other scenario. Without the ability to borrow, there is no "demand", regardless how much "desire" or "need" (often mistaken for "demand") there is in the economy, and without regard to how many Wimpies would gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

Where it gets even more complicated is WHO is responsible for determining the ability to borrow (even in a free and sound money market economy). All of that so-called demand is ultimately affected and determined on the supply side. Lenders are not like stores, where anybody with the ability and willingness to pay gets served without discrimination. You might decide your willingness, but it is the banks that will ultimately decide your ability, since all you are promising is future payments. So right from the git-go we have a supply and demand component that is very different from other goods and services, since banks are the ONLY "supply" of money outside the government in our current regime, and they have a direct affect on what we count as "demand".

Accordingly, as the supply of credit would be quite limited if there was a free market in money, price of credit (real interest) would naturally be pretty high & that would provide more incentive for the savers to deposit with banks.

Sure, but once again you didn't address the dynamic of a truly free market in money; namely, how do banks and ordinary people behave in the complete absence of a counterfeiter of first resort. And as long as fractional reserve lending is practiced in the way that it has in the past, credit cycles are going to continue, as banks are going to continue to operate as inherently insolvent, with the riskier behaving banks going belly-up (and savings of lender/savers/depositors gone with them). We would still have bank runs, as we did in the past, and therefore all the incentive in the world for many (certainly not all) savers to bypass banks altogether, and avoid them wherever possible. That IS how it happened in the past. They may not be earning money by lending it out to others, but most importantly, neither are they risking any, or risking losing wealth in the process, as they really do have a "store" of wealth that is not LOSING, and really does buy them time to accumulate more.

The only thing Keynes caused to be absolutely cemented in place was a deliberate guarantee (not risk), of exponential loss to currency holders, as economic rents are charged to the currency itself by the banking system, as a direct consequence of artificially inflating its supply.

You somehow seem to assume that people invest because we live in an inflationary system, when in fact, people invest because they want a return on their capital & people will always prefer to earn a return on their capital whether they live in inflationary system or a deflationary one.

I assume nothing except that currency holdings are like sand in an hourglass in an inflationary system. You own the top part of the glass only, while the counterfeiter owns the bottom part of the hourglass. And it NEVER flows upward. Your so-called money is leaking out through an invisible hole over time, at all times regardless where your currency is physically.

Labor, because its quantity and value tend to be finite, seeks, on the whole, to simply survive inflation. Capital seeks, and is more poised, to thrive in it. But all currency holders, laborers and capitalists, pay the price of having the value of their holdings siphoned/taxed in the process. The fact that you can earn wages or profits that might outstrip inflation is wholly beside that one salient point, which applies to everyone involved.

The thing is that an inflationary system benefits borrowers...

The largest benefit to borrowers (outside looser credit and malinvestment opportunities during booms, when risks are socialized), is the TIME advantage given to borrowers, literally at the expense of currency holders. The monetary exchange value advantage is eaten up by interest to the banks, leaving the borrowers only with the advantage of TIME to make up the difference.

In other words, save all you want, the banks are lending out its ever-eroding exchange value anyway.

The thing is that an inflationary system benefits...spenders...

That is where I disagree in the absolute, unless you are making a narrow reference to "spenders" as meaning only those borrowers who are spending. Actual savers (not lenders or their borrowing spenders), are the spender's best friend in a free market economy with sound money, because their savings increases the relative scarcity of the money that the actual spenders are spending. The 'borrowing spenders' in an inflationary regime, on the other hand, are the proverbial turds in the punchbowl, as they are in direct competition with other spenders, as they drive up/bid up the prices of goods and services.

...so [an inflationary system] doesn't incentivize savings at all (whether under the mattress or in the banks)

Worse than that. Not only does an inflationary fiat system not 'incentivize' savings, it actually punishes it. Taxes it away invisibly. It's not an otherwise neutral proposition. That really is an economic treadmill that all who are dependent on wages and currency holdings face.

...while a deflationary system benefits savers & lenders so of course, there's a higher incentive (higher real interest) to save & lend.

A deflationary system is only on its way to defying Keynesian-spawned logic as it becomes simply A Stable And Sustainable System in the long run. One that is self-stimulated, and requires no extra centrally-manipulated jolt. That is a case where you might have a lot of people willing, and even able to lend, but not always through the banks. And the risks of lending, which are no longer socialized, are much, much greater.

As for the risks of bank-failures go, in a truly free market, most of the banks would naturally be very sound because unsound ones would go out of business pretty quickly...

Failures would be in a domino-effect, if fractional reserve lending was still involved, due to the risk-pooling nature of the system itself. Thus, the boom-bust cycles would continue, with people freely lending to banks whilst they forget the lessons of the past, only to have it all end in periodic bank runs, as everyone develops, once again, a healthy distrust for all lending institutions.

...& of course, most people would definitely find it palatable to earn a high real interest on their capital (savings leftover after considering their regular expenditure) by depositting with a sound bank than stashing it under a mattress.

I think that's a circular argument, one that is put into a larger perspective of the business/credit cycle. The people in the roaring 20's had a decidedly different view of what was palatable with regard to banks (including what a "sound bank" means) than those very same people a mere decade later.
 
Last edited:
Where it gets even more complicated is WHO is responsible for determining the ability to borrow (even in a free and sound money market economy). All of that so-called demand is ultimately affected and determined on the supply side. Lenders are not like stores, where anybody with the ability and willingness to pay gets served without discrimination. You might decide your willingness, but it is the banks that will ultimately decide your ability, since all you are promising is future payments. So right from the git-go we have a supply and demand component that is very different from other goods and services, since banks are the ONLY "supply" of money outside the government in our current regime, and they have a direct affect on what we count as "demand".

Of course, banks are going to "discriminate" as to whom they lend because they are accepting the risk of default & thereby ensure principal + interest to the depositors; it offers an additional layer of safety for the depositors, as opposed to depositors going around looking for borrowers & directly taking on the risk of default.
Not to mention, even if depositors were to lend directly to borrowers, they'll still be "discriminatory" in their practices as to whom they lend, they are not going to lend to every Tom, Dick & Harry that wants a loan! When depositors deposit with banks, this "screening process" for eligible borrowers is simply "outsourced" to the banks because they are the ones taking the direct risk in that case.

Anyways, the reason I pointed out that "there's always demand for money" is to point out that therefore, it's the supply that dictates the returns & incentives for saving/lending.
So, in an inflationary environment, where there's greater supply of credit & lower or negative REAL interest, it disincentivizes savers/depositors from depositting with banks (& look for non-bank investments) while a deflationary environment, where there's limited supply of credit & higher REAL interest, it incentivizes more savers/depositors to deposit more with banks.

Sure, but once again you didn't address the dynamic of a truly free market in money; namely, how do banks and ordinary people behave in the complete absence of a counterfeiter of first resort. And as long as fractional reserve lending is practiced in the way that it has in the past, credit cycles are going to continue, as banks are going to continue to operate as inherently insolvent, with the riskier behaving banks going belly-up (and savings of lender/savers/depositors gone with them). We would still have bank runs, as we did in the past, and therefore all the incentive in the world for many (certainly not all) savers to bypass banks altogether, and avoid them wherever possible. That IS how it happened in the past. They may not be earning money by lending it out to others, but most importantly, neither are they risking any, or risking losing wealth in the process, as they really do have a "store" of wealth that is not LOSING, and really does buy them time to accumulate more.

Sorry but the premise is false because the system that existed in the past was NOT a free market so one can't make conclusions about free-market-banking by citing a system which wasn't a free market at all.

There's a big difference between FRB under the system that existed in the past & FRB under a free market.

FRB as it existed/exists, PRETENDS that banks can redeem all the demand-deposits at any given time even though they can't while FRB under a free market would openly tell its demand-depositors that the bank mayn't be able to redeem demand-deposits at times & that it would be "subject to availability of funds", may be banks will offer "penalty-interest" or anything else to compensate for the fact that they weren't able to redeem the deposits on demand, free-banking Austrians have talked about this already with historical examples.

Secondly, under a free market, there's no "corporate veil", which means that owners of the bank are PERSONALLY liable for all the obligations of the banks, which means that if a bank fails then even the PERSONAL ASSETS of its owners will be seized to pay off the debtors & depositors. This will mean that banks will be more careful & minimize risks because excessive risk could easily throw its owners out onto the streets.

Given these conditions, a free market will produce a very strong banking system, where there will be numerous sound banks where depositors would prefer to put their moneys rather than under a mattress!
Less sound banks may have to offer higher interest to entice depositors so it will be upto each depositor & his/her risk-appetite as to which way he/she wants to go but the point is that just because people are living in a deflationary environment does NOT mean that they will stop seeking a return on their capital.

Worse than that. Not only does an inflationary fiat system not 'incentivize' savings, it actually punishes it. Taxes it away invisibly. It's not an otherwise neutral proposition. That really is an economic treadmill that all who are dependent on wages and currency holdings face.

Exactly!

That's why I'm contending the belief that the current inflationary system somehow encourages people to save/invest with banks........it does NOT! In fact, an inflationary, high-credit, lower/negative-interest environment gets savers to look for other investment options with better returns on their capital (stock-market, commodities, etc) while a deflationary, limited-credit, high-interest environment gets savers to invest/deposit more with banks.

Most people neither understand nor react directly to macro-economic factors, they neither interested nor capable of understanding them, so they merely react to prices & profits. Hence, more of them will look to invest in stock-market, commodities & such in an inflationary environment because their prices rise with inflation while bank-interest is often driven below par due to excess credit introduced by central-banks, but in a deflationary environment, stock-market, commodities & such won't rise as fast as there's less monetary inflation but (real) bank-interest will be pretty high because money/credit is limited & therefore that will incentivize more savers to invest/deposit with banks.
 
Last edited:
It's not theft because PDs don't create money, they don't exert coercion on anyone, they are providing a VOLUNTARY service & whatever they earn is for the SERVICE they are providing.

Spending the Fed's printed money is a service? Give me a fucking break
 
Spending the Fed's printed money is a service? Give me a fucking break

PDs buy Treasuries from US Treasury by PAYING them so of course, they must be PAID for it when Fed buys the same from PDs. There's nothing evil about PDs getting paid for selling an asset, which they'd previously bought with their money.

The more you post, the more you seem like a typical liberal - "oh, they are making lots of money & I can't seem to understand why, so it must be evil!"

You don't seem to grasp that voluntary action & coercion are the issues at the heart of libertarianism, & accordingly, anybody who is offering a voluntary service & is NOT exerting coercion upon anyone else isn't in any way violating libertarian ethics.
 
If all this money-printing had occurred while the economy was already doing well, it would have caused a lot more inflation, maybe hyperinflation. But the deflationary forces are so powerful that there's a tug-of-war between inflation and deflation. Inflation is winning, however, and will definitely win in the end now that we have open-ended QE.

That's way overly-simplistic, but I think it's about right.

Agreed that the deflationary forces are more powerful, however inflation may not win in the end. Why? Because the government might return to a gold standard at some point - which would end up being a cheat because they would not allow the true full value of gold to be realized. They could default on the national debt at the same time. Both those moves would be highly deflationary. So that's something to watch out for. Still better to own gold/silver/platinum in that situation as well because the value of just about everything else would plummet - stocks/bonds/real estate/etc.

We are in a massive bubble which will either end in a deflationary collapse, if there is a return to some sort of precious metals standard, or a hyperinflationary collapse.

The government cannot raise interest rates to save the dollar this time as they did in the late seventies/early eighties. Why? Because at rates high enough to do that, the interest payments alone would absorb 100% of all tax revenue. We are in the end game.
 
PDs buy Treasuries from US Treasury by PAYING them so of course, they must be PAID for it when Fed buys the same from PDs. There's nothing evil about PDs getting paid for selling an asset, which they'd previously bought with their money.

The more you post, the more you seem like a typical liberal - "oh, they are making lots of money & I can't seem to understand why, so it must be evil!"

You don't seem to grasp that voluntary action & coercion are the issues at the heart of libertarianism, & accordingly, anybody who is offering a voluntary service & is NOT exerting coercion upon anyone else isn't in any way violating libertarian ethics.

You can throw that "voluntary and non-coercion" bullshit out the door, banker apologist. These bankers created the Fed, and pay big bucks to maintain the Fed, through the vehicle of politics which is by definition violent and coercive.

And I know exactly how they are making lots of money. I've already proven to you through basic economic logic that simply by doing business with the Fed they will make more money than they would otherwise. And it just so happens that the Fed has a counterfeit printing press that deals in the trillions... so I wonder how much of a "service" it is to make profits by selling your shit that noone else wants to buy to the Fed.

That's a great fucking "service", there, Paul or Nothing II. You continue to prove yourself as a banker apologist who either grossly misunderstands the issues and theft at hand, or are lying to cover it up.
 
Last edited:
Of course, banks are going to "discriminate" as to whom they lend because they are accepting the risk of default & thereby ensure principal + interest to the depositors; it offers an additional layer of safety for the depositors, as opposed to depositors going around looking for borrowers & directly taking on the risk of default.

Not to mention, even if depositors were to lend directly to borrowers, they'll still be "discriminatory" in their practices as to whom they lend, they are not going to lend to every Tom, Dick & Harry that wants a loan! When depositors deposit with banks, this "screening process" for eligible borrowers is simply "outsourced" to the banks because they are the ones taking the direct risk in that case.

Note the part I put in bold. I am not attacking the discrimination process for credit, in itself , wherein "they are the ones taking the direct risk. Under a truly free market:

a) no funding would be provided via a compulsory tax on all savers and other currency holders
b) risks would not be collectivized and shared, with everyone jointly, severally and ultimately liable for future failures
c) rewards would only go to parties that took risks that succeeded in generating profits

What I am illustrating, not attacking, is how that discriminatory process works in the context of the theft, collectivization and en masse dilution of the currency itself, which fuels the system as it is now artificially constructed, and which should never have taken place.

KEYNES' PROBLEM: Savers aren't spending enough fast enough, or are not putting their own funds to productive use.
KEYNES-SPAWNED SOLUTION (in effect): Perpetually and continuously seize an exponentially increasing portion of funds from all savers. Put those funds into a collectivized pool that is to made available to commercial lending institutions, which can then use their discretion as to who are the most productive (credit-worthy) to which to lend these stolen funds.

Macroeconomics considers everything that occurs after the fact, skipping over the fact that the entire system is founded on outright theft from all currency holders from its inception -- and all to solve a temporary theoretical phenomenon that is labeled "a problem in need of a statist solution".

The only time the discrimination process is governed and undistorted by free market principles is when it happens on their own behalf, or on behalf of those who knowingly and willingly put their own money at risk. As it stands now, credit discrimination by banks is only the process by which prospective winners and losers are chosen in the Redistribution of Stolen Funds, from which the banks alone can earn profits from something that neither they nor their depositors created or produced.

The solution is not to take away the credit discrimination process -- the mere thought of which would be moronic, and would only exacerbate problems. I only bring the process up to show that wealth is being outright stolen indiscriminately from savers, but then redistributed with extreme prejudice to only the most credit worthy. Losers: savers - Winners: banks by default for the profits, and anyone-with-great-credit in terms of first whacks at new currency before it loses further value as a result of being brought into existence.

This is not only a Stolen Wealth Redistribution process, where funds are seized (by force, and without permission) from one sector of the economy, and loaned out to another. Because the process is deliberately inflationary (price inflation, with upward pressure on general price levels), it in turn creates an artificial need (not demand) for more currency for everyone. I say need, and not demand, because the need for more currency on everyone's part occurs without regard to the ABILITY to acquire more, whereas demand, in the economic sense, assumes both the willingness and ability to acquire more. And since that need on the parts of those who are not credit worthy can never be fulfilled with new money -- this brings us full circle to the discriminatory mechanism in place, at lending institutions -- the spigots and distribution channels for all new money, where all distortions begin to play out.

Can you imagine a legislative proposal that reads, in essence:

All savers and other currency holders will be taxed perpetually, at an exponential rate, for the purpose of ensuring that:

a) a steady flow of funds are made available for commercial banks to lend, and that
b) the solvency of commercial lending institutions (of substantial enough size to affect the public interest) is assured, and
c) to ensure a steady flow of funds to the state which borrows on its own "good faith and credit"

If you proposed it like this, without describing the mechanism by which the tax would be collected, what do you think everyone's response would be? And yet that is precisely what we have in place now.

All currency holders, worldwide, are taxed, without being considered parties of interest, for the privilege of subsidizing lending institutions. That's the lending, or supply side spigots and channels, of newly counterfeited currency. On the borrowing, or demand side, these are divided into public/state (warfare and welfare) siphons, as well as private commercial interest siphons, all of which have privileged access to all the newly counterfeited currency.

The state created a Fed system that steals from savers and redistributes their wealth to only the most credit-worthy. The state has extreme incentive to have such a system in place, because the state itself is always first in line in terms of its own credit-worthiness. The Fed it created would never say no. This is a counterfeit source of funds from which the state itself may also now borrow, through an hidden tax that occurs automatically, deliberately and exponentially, and requires no political representation. Out of all the currency holders taxed to supply new currency, however, only American taxpayers are taxed, once again (this time directly), to pay TWICE for the state's participation in the counterfeit borrowing (deficit spending) process; first their currency is taxed when it is diluted, and then they are taxed directly to service loans created from stolen funds as principle and/or interest payments become due.

Anyways, the reason I pointed out that "there's always demand for money" is to point out that therefore, it's the supply that dictates the returns & incentives for saving/lending.

So, in an inflationary environment, where there's greater supply of credit & lower or negative REAL interest, it disincentivizes savers/depositors from depositting with banks (& look for non-bank investments) while a deflationary environment, where there's limited supply of credit & higher REAL interest, it incentivizes more savers/depositors to deposit more with banks.

I'll be creating a separate thread that deals with FRB illusions, as I think I have it pretty much distilled down to where it really zigs and zags, and why, specifically, it is fraudulent for reasons that should be glaringly apparent, but are rarely considered. There is a de facto legal tender-like aspect to commercial lending institutions that I will go into, and my arguments will include reasons why NO so-called "reserves" should even be required of any lending institution under a truly free market in currency. But that's for another thread.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top