Why The Atheists Fight

[Kade]

I know many of you are a religious people. I've expressed my feelings quite clearly, and if anything, you know I am eminently willing to defend my position, something that men who fight for liberty and freedom must be able to do. I have nothing against the believer. My thinking you are wrong is not a pronouncement of who or what you are, and my questioning and debating comes from a discussion of the facts and observations of politics and public cultural policy.

I think it is important that some of you take off your blinders for a second and look at the world from a different viewpoint. I'm not asking you to give up God, I'm asking you to imagine you were on our side of the fence, just for a moment.

I don't believe in conspiracies, and I don't really travel too far on the either side of the political spectrum. I do however think there is a concentrated effort to diminish religious freedom in this country, a subversion that has promised to wipe out all tolerance of non-believers or non-Christians.

Consider this piece. Written today.

Is this what you desire? This is what "Conservatives" are pushing. A bigotry and an offensive revision of history that undermines other people's freedoms. Is it that you agree that you refuse to fight this as well? or is it because you don't consider that a freedom or a natural right?

Medved goes so far as to declare a national church.

"As Constitutional scholars all point out, the Presidency uniquely combines the two functions of head of government (like the British Prime Minister) and head of state (like the Queen of England). POTUS not only appoints cabinet members and shapes foreign policy and delivers addresses to Congress, but also presides over solemn and ceremonial occasions. Just as the Queen plays a formal role as head of the Church of England, the President functions as head of the “Church of America” – that informal, tolerant but profoundly important civic religion that dominates all our national holidays and historic milestones. For instance, try to imagine an atheist president issuing the annual Thanksgiving proclamation. To whom would he extend thanks in the name of his grateful nation –-the Indians in Massachusetts?"


This is article is not unique, it is an everyday thing among the growing conservatives and theocratic media outlets. The Heritage Foundation (Townhall is the news outlet of Heritage) Worldnet Daily, The Discovery Institute, and the Culture and Media Institute among others. These organizations are massive, and they machines of revisionism and propaganda.

Can you now for a second, just imagine an OP piece that says that we should strong resist a Christian from being President?

Who is more blind? I would never in all my life say that, even if myself am a non-believer. Why is this form of bigotry acceptable?
Why is it so prevalent on these forums?

A Democrat Illinois State Senator recently just spouted to Atheist Rob Sherman during a court hearing:

"What you have to spew and spread is extremely dangerous . . . it's dangerous for our children to even know that your philosophy exists!

"This is the Land of Lincoln where people believe in God," Davis said. "Get out of that seat . . . You have no right to be here! We believe in something. You believe in destroying! You believe in destroying what this state was built upon."


I support Ron Paul because I don't believe he would find this acceptable. I bring up these issues because they matter, and most of you take offense, as if I were insulting your religion.

The truth is that you are blind and intolerant. You allow your fellow believers to stomp all over the rights and liberties of others because you too don't apply the same principles you stand for...

I think it is a shame. And it is relevant to the conversation and the movement.

Over 40% of people my age, between 18-29 are non-believers. We are growing. This country is going to be inherited by us, and between all the things we debate about most, there is nothing more pressing and disturbing then the persecution of non-religion over religion.

I have worked hard, as a grassroots organizer and youth leader, to maintain civility and tolerance on my side. You VERY rarely hear of the growing crowds of non-believers turning violent, writing hate speech, or saying that Christians don't belong here, or that this is a "Atheist Nation".

We have engaged the system the way it was meant to be engaged. Through debate, through forums, through media, through conversation.

This appeal to the emotional impotence of the masses from these corporations and organizations, on the backs of most of you, who stand idly by, is a disgrace.

That is why we fight. That is why we are here.

 

[TER]

Why do you judge Christ's message by the sins of people?

 

[Nirvikalpa]

You can't be a politician, and be a true Christian, unless you're really in it for change. True Christian's don't backstab, sleep with prostitutes, cheat on their wives/husbands, or sit back when 'the little guy' is being treaded upon.

That's my take on it.

And medved... HAH. I don't really care what the next president is. The one's we have had made a mockery of being Christian.

I don't really care what religion anyone is, it's their right to believe anything they want. However, from what I've seen on this forum, I've seen more threads the OTHER way around - with more Christian bashing.

Who cares though? Practice your faith, and don't let an online identity piss you off about it. That goes the other way around, too.

 

[Kade]

Why do you judge Christ's message by the sins of people?

The same reason you don't judge Atheists by their actions, not what they believe...

Think about it.

 

[TER]

I don't consider atheists to be any bigger sinner than I or any other Christian. I do not see them as deluded. I pray for them because I wish them peace. And if I was a saint, I would die for them.

 

[micahnelson]

Why do you judge Christ's message by the sins of people?

I don't think the OP came to his religious views because of this behavior. What he is saying is that Religion is another area where liberty must be protected. To say the president is the head of the "Church of America" is dangerous and insulting. We fought a war to get away from a state run church. To imply that this is the case is an affront to the founders philosophy in every way.

To address your question, as a Christian, I would say little Christian activity these days reflects the selflessness and love taught by Christ. This doesn't make me change my view of Christ, but is drastically changing my view of the church that has trademarked his name.

 

[Kade]

I don't think the OP came to his religious views because of this behavior. What he is saying is that Religion is another area where liberty must be protected. To say the president is the head of the "Church of America" is dangerous and insulting. We fought a war to get away from a state run church. To imply that this is the case is an affront to the founders philosophy in every way.

To address your question, as a Christian, I would say little Christian activity these days reflects the selflessness and love taught by Christ. This doesn't make me change my view of Christ, but is drastically changing my view of the church that has trademarked his name.

Thank you. That is exactly what I was trying to say... it quickly turned defensive for some, instead of focusing on the point I was making.

I think we must protect other's rights if we are to protect our own, always.

 

[Kade]

I don't consider atheists to be any bigger sinner than I or any other Christian. I do not see them as deluded. I pray for them because I wish them peace. And if I was a saint, I would die for them.

This is really off from my point my friend, and a bit dramatic. I am willing to discuss the philosophy of hellfire and the real "sacrifice" of Jesus and it's applications to morality in another thread. For now, I was making a different point.

 

[micahnelson]

Thank you. That is exactly what I was trying to say... it quickly turned defensive for some, instead of focusing on the point I was making.

I think we must protect other's rights if we are to protect our own, always.

Well, we must hang together or we will most certainly hang separately.

 

[Kade]

Well, we must hang together or we will most certainly hang separately.

 

[amy31416]

Thank you. That is exactly what I was trying to say... it quickly turned defensive for some, instead of focusing on the point I was making.

I think we must protect other's rights if we are to protect our own, always.

Look at you, agreeing with a Christian--I'm proud! Good post, by the way.

(Now could you at least take gunny's name out of your signature? He's a good guy who's done a lot for the campaign who you happen to disagree with on one particular issue. Thanks in advance. )

 

[MS0453]

Over 40% of people my age, between 18-29 are non-believers. We are growing. This country is going to be inherited by us, and between all the things we debate about most, there is nothing more pressing and disturbing then the persecution of non-religion over religion.

I just wanted to make a comment, because statistics like these always amuse the hell out of me. As a 19 yo, I can assure you that the vast majority of people who are atheist or don't have any use/need for religion, don't do so out of some philosophical reason. (ie, 99% of those people aren't prepared to make a philosophical justification for their beliefs.) It's born out of the same apathy that dominates my generation when it comes to political matters or any issue at all. No one gives a crap, about anything. Literally, there exists nothing, except for the walls that surround us. (No outside world, if you will.)

For the record, I could care less whether people chose to be theist, deist, atheist, agnostic, so on, so there's no sides to be had in my argument. I'm also willing to say that yes, most religion believers also lack the ability to define their faith.

 

[TER]

Kade, forgive me if I misunderstood your post and became defensive. Please understand that the idea of the OP is not in line with the Christ's teachings. I was just making that point across. People have used His message for self-gain since He walked the earth.

 

[orafi]

Why should I give a damn if you're an atheist?

Just be a good and honest person and I'll like you.

 

[Kade]

I just wanted to make a comment, because statistics like these always amuse the hell out of me. As a 19 yo, I can assure you that the vast majority of people who are atheist or don't have any use/need for religion, don't do so out of some philosophical reason. (ie, 99% of those people aren't prepared to make a philosophical justification for their beliefs.) It's born out of the same apathy that dominates my generation when it comes to political matters or any issue at all. No one gives a crap, about anything. Literally, there exists nothing, except for the walls that surround us. (No outside world, if you will.)

For the record, I could care less whether people chose to be theist, deist, atheist, agnostic, so on, so there's no sides to be had in my argument. I'm also willing to say that yes, most religion believers also lack the ability to define their faith.

I believe more than half of those people are atheists because they have thought about it, not apathy.

As we speak my girlfriend is running a two year study on this very thing, and well over 75% of the respondents have declared that they were once Christian, and have considered the merits of atheism on philosophical terms. None of the respondents have mentioned that they were truly atheist from philosophical position, and then converted. The apathetic usually are easily converted over to whatever religious meme is offered, try converting a freethinker.

 

[Kade]

Why should I give a damn if you're an atheist?

Just be a good and honest person and I'll like you.

This misses the point...

 

[familydog]

I just wanted to make a comment, because statistics like these always amuse the hell out of me. As a 19 yo, I can assure you that the vast majority of people who are atheist or don't have any use/need for religion, don't do so out of some philosophical reason. (ie, 99% of those people aren't prepared to make a philosophical justification for their beliefs.) It's born out of the same apathy that dominates my generation when it comes to political matters or any issue at all. No one gives a crap, about anything. Literally, there exists nothing, except for the walls that surround us. (No outside world, if you will.)

For the record, I could care less whether people chose to be theist, deist, atheist, agnostic, so on, so there's no sides to be had in my argument. I'm also willing to say that yes, most religion believers also lack the ability to define their faith.

I agree completely. As someone who spends a lot of time with that demographic, I can say they don't think really anything through let alone religion. They just float through life. Of course, I'm generalizing there are always exceptions. Maybe it's just a Pennsylvania phenomena.

 

[Kade]

I agree completely. As someone who spends a lot of time with that demographic, I can say they don't think really anything through let alone religion. They just float through life. Of course, I'm generalizing there are always exceptions. Maybe it's just a Pennsylvania phenomena.

So you too run an organization with well over 50,000 high school and college students?

Or are you trying to be offensive?

 

[LittleLightShining]

Can you now for a second, just imagine an OP piece that says that we should strong resist a Christian from being President?

Who is more blind? I would never in all my life say that, even if myself am a non-believer. Why is this form of bigotry acceptable?
Why is it so prevalent on these forums?

...

I support Ron Paul because I don't believe he would find this acceptable. I bring up these issues because they matter, and most of you take offense, as if I were insulting your religion.

The truth is that you are blind and intolerant. You allow your fellow believers to stomp all over the rights and liberties of others because you too don't apply the same principles you stand for...

I think it is a shame. And it is relevant to the conversation and the movement.

Over 40% of people my age, between 18-29 are non-believers. We are growing. This country is going to be inherited by us, and between all the things we debate about most, there is nothing more pressing and disturbing then the persecution of non-religion over religion.

I have worked hard, as a grassroots organizer and youth leader, to maintain civility and tolerance on my side. You VERY rarely hear of the growing crowds of non-believers turning violent, writing hate speech, or saying that Christians don't belong here, or that this is a "Atheist Nation".

We have engaged the system the way it was meant to be engaged. Through debate, through forums, through media, through conversation.

This appeal to the emotional impotence of the masses from these corporations and organizations, on the backs of most of you, who stand idly by, is a disgrace.

That is why we fight. That is why we are here.

This is exactly why I am here, fighting this fight alongside you. I can't get through to "church people" so I don't even really try anymore.
Sometimes I think I know how to do it, but then I remember I am me and they don't want me and my outside-of-the-box thinking. I'm not going to dress my kids in pastel shirts all tucked in, nor will I ever don a jumper. I will listen to the Beastie Boys and Fugazi as loud as I want to. I don't fit in anywhere, not even here. Nobody really listens to me unless I write a letter or call a talk show because then they can't see me.

But what I do see happening, in this fascist shift, is the twisting of religion and Christianity, through its' flaccid teachers, manipulating and pushing a social agenda which has no merit in a Constitutional Republic. These Christians that push this stuff are making their own beds and we will all suffer for it.

Now, I do not believe that public schools should be teaching atheism or any other religion. I don't really believe in public schools, actually. They are social engineering training programs and not institutions of learning. The divisiveness that religion (whatever it is) brings to debate in science is healthy and necessary, but perhaps we need to rethink tolerance. It seems that it is always the atheistic side that demands tolerance while shunning and ridiculing believers of any persuasion because they do not agree. If a school is pushing it's religion (atheism included) onto children and parents do not agree then the parents must be responsible for educating their children in a more suitable environment. People need to remember they have rights and that doesn't mean do what the state tells you you should do.

It is not the role of government to step in and decide whose world-view takes precedence. Unfortunately, we have come so far from the original intent of the Constitution. The interpretation of it has led to some really whacked out ideas-- such as their being a "separation of church and state." There is no separation of church and state (in the Constitution, period) but also in the sense that the whole concept is being interpreted today. Today it is looked at as, "The state shall not allow any reference to religion ever." Where I believe the factual interpretation should read more like, "The state shall not mandate any specific form of worship or lack thereof."

People like power and they have forever manipulated their world-view to attain it. Fighting amongst ourselves will not serve any purpose whatsoever but derail the truth.T he truth is that we individually have a right to live however we want so long as we don't hurt anyone else. I'm not going to convince anyone what they should believe and vice versa. We have our own individual ways of arriving. Personally I'm really tired of the fighting over religion here. We're falling into the trap. I do appreciate a good debate, but we do need to remember that we're all in this together.

 

[orafi]

This misses the point...

I only read the first few lines haha