Why Shouldn’t a University Be Free to Adopt Affirmative Action?

You never know, but I do consider immigration policy a litmus test, possibly the single most dividing issue among libertarians.

It seems to me a similar situation as abortion for a litmus test. If a candidate makes abortion their first and foremost talking point, I'd generally assign a left or right label to them depending upon whether they were "abortion up to birth" vs. "no abortion, no morning after pills".

Fair points. But while litmus tests can be useful, they are also broad generalizations, so they can never be dispositive by themselves.

Walter Block, for example, was an "open borders" supporter - and when it came to abortion, he pushed that pet "evictionism" theory of his (which was essentially just a weirdly framed "pro-choice" position) [1] - but he otherwise never even remotely gave off any kind of "left-libertarian" vibes. (At least, not to me.)



[1] And as long as we are speaking of "primary talking points" and their unwise or inopportune deployment, remember when Block chose to use his speaking time at Ron Paul's Rally for the Republic by going on about "evictionism", of all things? /facepalm
 
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Fair points. But while litmus tests can be useful, they are also broad generalizations, so they can never be dispositive by themselves.

Walter Block, for example, was an "open borders" supporter - and when it came to abortion, he pushed that pet "evictionism" theory of his (which was essentially just a weirdly framed "pro-choice" position) [1] - but he otherwise never even remotely gave off any kind of "left-libertarian" vibes. (At least, not to me.)

Yep. No matter how much someone writes about any subject in the world, give them a spotlight, and their pet issues and passions tend to come out.
 
Yep. No matter how much someone writes about any subject in the world, give them a spotlight, and their pet issues and passions tend to come out.

More conversations, not less. Unlike the 4th branch of government.
 
This type of ideological masturbation does nothing but pave the road to complete political irrelevancy, and sacrifice common weal and common sense.

Don't even waste more than 10 brain cells trying to justify what they're saying. It would require the abolishment of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

The 1964 Civil Rights Act is not going to be repealed.

Hillsdale's claim, verbatim: "In other words, Hillsdale is not subject to the Supreme Court’s recent ruling on affirmative action. The school is free to adopt any admissions policy it wants, including affirmative action."

Is not true. If Hillsdale tried to admit only Caucasian students, they would be shut down in violation of the Civil Rights Act. Even HBCU's (Historically Black Colleges) admit Caucasuan students. I'd like to see Hillsdale test their contention. They can start with prohibiting Jewish students from enrolling, and see what happens.

No they would not. But they would be stripped of their tax except status under the Bob Jones University case. Look it up.

Edit: And for the record, HBCUs always were open to white students! In fact most initially had white presidents and faculty. HBCUs were never about keeping white people out. They were about having a place where black people could attend when other doors were closed to them.
 
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No they would not. But they would be stripped of their tax except status under the Bob Jones University case. Look it up.

Edit: And for the record, HBCUs always were open to white students! In fact most initially had white presidents and faculty. HBCUs were never about keeping white people out. They were about having a place where black people could attend when other doors were closed to them.

If a school, that is chartered and recognized by a state, not just the Federal government, violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, a case may be brought against both that institution and the State that licenses and charters them, if they are a school. The basis of the recent ruling is the Fourteenth Amendment. Violating the Fourteenth Amendment is breaking the law, not merely violating a tax-exempt status offered by the Federal government. This opens up the violator to criminal and civil penalties. In Bob Jones University vs. United States, Footnote 29 says: "We deal here only with religious schools - not with churches or other purely religious institutions". So, there is precedent that PURELY religious institutions have exception granted by the First Amendment, but not their SCHOOLS.

Without spending our day on this topic, the main reason I replied to this thread was two-fold:

1) In agreement with Anti Federalist that reality is more important than ideological purity in this country. The fact that SCOTUS ended Affirmative Action is NOT a bad thing. It is a good thing. In an operational sense because of how it has been applied.
2) Hornberger makes two fallacious statements:
a) "Hillsdale College in Michigan has long had a policy of not accepting state funds. As such, neither the state government nor federal government, including the Supreme Court, wield the power to control or regulate Hillsdale in any respect."
-and-
b) "Hillsdale is not subject to the Supreme Court’s recent ruling on affirmative action. The school is free to adopt any admissions policy it wants, including affirmative action."

"a" is false because Hillsdale is not a purely religious institution. "b" is false because SCOTUS has ruled on the matter.

Merely WANTING Hornberger's sentiment to be true, and self-interpretation of the laws of the land is opinion and sentiment, not law. Opinions are brought before the courts to be decided upon by the authority, the highest being SCOTUS in this country, unless they are stripped of jurisdiction by Congress, or the Executive is allowed to disobey them, or a Convention alters the Constitution... None of this has anything to do with MY opinion. In MY opinion, the Fourteenth Amendment violates the Constitution, because it violates the Bill of Rights. Unfortunately, the Constitution is so flawed that it allows its own violation to take place, because it places authority in democratically-elected representatives whose actions and legislations must be brought before the SCOTUS if challenged by a citizen or state, and those judges are appointed by the same democratically-elected representatives, and the other political redresses (impeachments, jurisdiction modifications) are also remitted to the same. MY opinion and Hornberger's are delimited to be of equal value to any and all citizens (and perhaps, residents) above legal voting age. We are victims of this majoritarian structure, and doubly victimized by the illusions and relativities of representarianism. The sooner more people understand this, the more likely our escape. Otherwise, the perpetual ouroboros of tyranny provided by the Constitution continues unabated. Perhaps that is what was always intended to occur.
 
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I tell you what. You post a picture of your law degree and I'll post a picture of mine. YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. I already gave you the reference to the Bob Jones univeristy case. That university had a racist policy against interracial dating. They were not shut down. But they were stripped of their tax excempt status. That not only blocked them from receiving federal funds, but it meant that anyone who donated to them would not get a tax write off. just because you are recognized by the state doesn't mean you have some duty to follow the equal protection clause. Every business has a state liense. Business are not required to follow the equal protection clause. Where the hell did you even get that idea from? And if your ridiculous argument were even true (and it's not) then your "solution" of repealing the civil rights act wouldn't even work because the Equal Protection Clause is in the constitution, not the Civil Rights Act.

If a school, that is chartered and recognized by a state, not just the Federal government, violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, a case may be brought against both that institution and the State that licenses and charters them, if they are a school. The basis of the recent ruling is the Fourteenth Amendment. Violating the Fourteenth Amendment is breaking the law, not merely violating a tax-exempt status offered by the Federal government. This opens up the violator to criminal and civil penalties. In Bob Jones University vs. United States, Footnote 29 says: "We deal here only with religious schools - not with churches or other purely religious institutions". So, there is precedent that PURELY religious institutions have exception granted by the First Amendment, but not their SCHOOLS.

Without spending our day on this topic, the main reason I replied to this thread was two-fold:

1) In agreement with Anti Federalist that reality is more important than ideological purity in this country. The fact that SCOTUS ended Affirmative Action is NOT a bad thing. It is a good thing. In an operational sense because of how it has been applied.
2) Hornberger makes two fallacious statements:
a) "Hillsdale College in Michigan has long had a policy of not accepting state funds. As such, neither the state government nor federal government, including the Supreme Court, wield the power to control or regulate Hillsdale in any respect."
-and-
b) "Hillsdale is not subject to the Supreme Court’s recent ruling on affirmative action. The school is free to adopt any admissions policy it wants, including affirmative action."

"a" is false because Hillsdale is not a purely religious institution. "b" is false because SCOTUS has ruled on the matter.

Merely WANTING Hornberger's sentiment to be true, and self-interpretation of the laws of the land is opinion and sentiment, not law. Opinions are brought before the courts to be decided upon by the authority, the highest being SCOTUS in this country, unless they are stripped of jurisdiction by Congress, or the Executive is allowed to disobey them, or a Convention alters the Constitution... None of this has anything to do with MY opinion. In MY opinion, the Fourteenth Amendment violates the Constitution, because it violates the Bill of Rights. Unfortunately, the Constitution is so flawed that it allows its own violation to take place, because it places authority in democratically-elected representatives whose actions and legislations must be brought before the SCOTUS if challenged by a citizen or state, and those judges are appointed by the same democratically-elected representatives, and the other political redresses (impeachments, jurisdiction modifications) are also remitted to the same. MY opinion and Hornberger's are delimited to be of equal value to any and all citizens (and perhaps, residents) above legal voting age. We are victims of this majoritarian structure, and doubly victimized by the illusions and relativities of representarianism. The sooner more people understand this, the more likely our escape. Otherwise, the perpetual ouroboros of tyranny provided by the Constitution continues unabated. Perhaps that is what was always intended to occur.
 
I tell you what.

jmdrake, there's no reason to escalate. You're not contending against what I wrote. You are only misinterpreting what I wrote.
It's not about ball size. ok?

Italicized is yours:

I tell you what. You post a picture of your law degree and I'll post a picture of mine. YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

This is an ad homenim attack. My degrees are in history, not law. But nobody here is going to post JPG's of their diplomas, at least I hope not. So, the content of the writing is what serves as evidence. Back to THAT.

I already gave you the reference to the Bob Jones univeristy case. That university had a racist policy against interracial dating.

I have no idea why you thought I was unfamiliar with the case. It is off-topic to my points about Hillsdale.

They were not shut down.

I never said they were. Try reading what I write instead of fuming and imagining what I write.

But they were stripped of their tax excempt status. That not only blocked them from receiving federal funds, but it meant that anyone who donated to them would not get a tax write off.

True, but I still have no idea why your imagination felt I was not aware of that.

just because you are recognized by the state doesn't mean you have some duty to follow the equal protection clause. Every business has a state liense. Business are not required to follow the equal protection clause. Where the hell did you even get that idea from? And if your ridiculous argument were even true (and it's not) then your "solution" of repealing the civil rights act wouldn't even work because the Equal Protection Clause is in the constitution, not the Civil Rights Act.

Okay, although my initial citation in this matter was about the Civil Rights Act, the post you are replying to clearly says Fourteenth Amendment, NOT Civil Rights Act. Still, everything is linked because both the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 are connected with the Fourteenth Amendment, according to multiple SCOTUS rulings and opinions.

On the heart of your complaint about my post, the only complaint that is relevant. I was talking out the potential cases and vulnerabilities that could be brought to bear by states and other parties against Hillsdale IF they do what Hornberger said they CAN DO. The Bob Jones case from decades ago, and the supposition that Hillsdale College TODAY has the right to ignore SCOTUS and implement its own affirmative-action based on race (Which is what Hornerger claims and is the REASON I am posting in this thread) are not legal equivalents!! They are actual opposites. Prior to this new ruling, which btw Harvard is a private university, SCOTUS did not bind the Fourteenth Amendment's EPC to race-based college admissions. But NOW they ARE tied. Although Bob Jones relented, the reason why no penalties against them were brought to court was that UNTIL NOW the SCOTUS did not rule that applicants Constitutional Rights were Violated. NOW THEY ARE. This opens up all sorts of NEW obligations by STATES (Like Michigan towards Hillsdale), vis-a-vis the EPC: (All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens(1) of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws..) who have the authority to sustain and license even private schools. I also mentioned associations that determine metriculation and degree recognitions, and accreditations that all become vulnerable if Hillsdale wants to challenge the Fourteenth Amendment rights of its applicants (again, this is a new association!) ... one last thing, from my prior post - which you did not address - Bob Jones University vs. United States, Footnote 29 says: "We deal here only with religious schools - not with churches or other purely religious institutions". So, there is precedent that ONLY PURELY religious institutions have exception granted by the First Amendment, but not their SCHOOLS".

One final clarification. In the post you reply to, I said the Fourteenth Amendment violates the Bill of Rights. What I meant was that the Fourteenth Amdment's and it's subsequently ratified clauses (Reconstruction period), in this case the EPC (which nine states would not ratify, even after the Civil War) are problematic; and most emphatically, I meant that the line of SCOTUS rulings since then (of which this year's are only the latest) interpretations and applications of the Amendment violate the spirit of the Bill of Rights, and this is where I SHARE Hornberger's primary sentiment because if there was not a perceived violation, Hornberger wouldn't have written his article, and we wouldn't be here commenting on it.

(1) Scotus has also ruled on multiple occasions that the EPC applies not merely to citizens, but to "but any person, whoever he may be", of "may happen to be" within the jurisdiction of a state", "without regard to any differences of race, of color, or of nationality".
 
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This type of ideological masturbation does nothing but pave the road to complete political irrelevancy, and sacrifice common weal and common sense.

Don't even waste more than 10 brain cells trying to justify what they're saying. It would require the abolishment of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

The 1964 Civil Rights Act is not going to be repealed.

Hillsdale's claim, verbatim: "In other words, Hillsdale is not subject to the Supreme Court’s recent ruling on affirmative action. The school is free to adopt any admissions policy it wants, including affirmative action."

Is not true. If Hillsdale tried to admit only Caucasian students, they would be shut down in violation of the Civil Rights Act. Even HBCU's (Historically Black Colleges) admit Caucasuan students. I'd like to see Hillsdale test their contention. They can start with prohibiting Jewish students from enrolling, and see what happens.

I don't know why you're trying to not own what you said but okay. If Hillsdale college tried to admit only Caucasian students, they would NOT be shut down in violation of the Civil Rights Act. I'm not going to reply to your latest response where you tried dto say you didn't say what you clearly said.
 
I don't know why you're trying to not own what you said but okay. If Hillsdale college tried to admit only Caucasian students, they would NOT be shut down in violation of the Civil Rights Act. I'm not going to reply to your latest response where you tried dto say you didn't say what you clearly said.

#26 and #30 are the better considered posts I wrote in this thread.

The very first post where I mentioned Civil Rights Act in the beginning was an emotional off-the cuff reaction to the article, and I didn't even really think about it yet. Since the SCOTUS ruling is cemented on the Fourteenth Amendment, everything is different now, and the possibilities go beyond the mere federal-financial assistance requirements of the Civil Rights Act titles. I suppose this means you agree with my longer posts and see legal vulnerabilities for Hillsdale if they were to enact affirmative-action programmes now, which Hornberger seems to think they are free to do.

But I'm done with this thread, the posts above are all I have to say.
 
If Hillsdale college tried to admit only Caucasian students, they would NOT be shut down in violation of the Civil Rights Act.

It depends on which Civil Rights Act is involved. The 1964 CRA wouldn't apply, but part of Section 1 of the 1866 Civil Rights Act (which is now codified at 42 USC §1981) would. This statute provides that "All persons within the jurisdiction of the United States shall have the same right in every State and Territory to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, give evidence, and to the full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of persons and property as is enjoyed by white citizens..."

In Runyon v. McCrary, 427 U.S. 160 (1976) the Court held that the statute prohibited a private nonsectarian school from refusing to admit a prospective student solely because he was black.
 
Why Shouldn’t a University Be Free to Adopt Affirmative Action?
...
...why shouldn’t a private university, like Harvard, be free to establish any policy it wants for admitting students? It’s their university, isn’t it? Why should the Supreme Court wield the power to dictate to a privately owned institution what it can and cannot do?
...

A timely discussion...
 
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