Why Rand Paul needs to be attacked by (some) libertarians

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ModNote: This thread was originally posted by jmdrake, with this original post:

jmdrake said:
Before I get flamed for saying Rand should be attacked, hear me out. In fact, don't just hear me out. Go to Netflicks and watch the movie The Hiding Place. It's a story about a family, the Ten Booms, that hid Jews during the holocaust.

One of the things the Ten Booms had to do was to get enough ration cards to buy extra food for the people hiding out at their house. Having extra ration cards, even without proof of anything else, could get you sent to a concentration camp. They had friends who distributed rations cards and worked out a deal to get more. But there was a catch. To keep the Nazis from getting suspicious, they had to beat up their own friends to make it look like a robbery.

Back in 2010, when it became apparent to me that Rand was operating in "stealth mode" (and yes I'm convinced that's what he's doing), I thought "would the ruse work if all liberty minded people rallied around Rand with the same level of blind devotion with which they rallied around Ron?" And I quickly came to the "no" conclusion.

Now, I admit I could be wrong about Rand. He could be co-opted and power hungry. He could simply be being misled. In either of those cases it's important for liberty minded folk to hold his feet to the fire in a way liberals did not hold Obama's feet to the fire.

Further, it's possible, even likely, that the Justin Raimondo's of the world aren't attacking Rand in order to help him "keep his cover" but rather because they just hate the teocon-like stuff he sometimes says and the endorsement of Romney. But from a strategic point of view....it doesn't matter. The Becks of the world will say "Rand is being attacked by people who attack me! The enemy of my enemy is my friend! I must come to his defense!" And I suspect Beck is playing a role too...but in order to successfully play a role you must.....play the role.

Rand took some flack from libertarians for going with the neo/teocons and putting a hold on Hagel. Now he's taking flack from some neo/teocons, and paleocons who want to court them, for voting to confirm Hagel. In 2016 none of that will matter. But in the dustup he had Beck "riding to his rescue" and now he has (some) libertarians who were doubting him feeling at least a little better. When Raimondo does what he feels he has to do (and what is ultimately in Rand's political best interest) it won't have as much sting as it might have had before. But it will continue to help Rand with the teocons. By 2016 (or before) people will have largely forgotten about the Hagel vote. (I sincerely doubt this will resonate like the Romney endorsement did.) Your average GOP voter probably still has no idea who Hagel is. Yes some "hardcore tecon freerepers" will remember, but there are more of us than there are of them.

All in all this was a good day for Rand Paul.

Voluntary American's reply: My signature -- that is all.
 
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Look, Rand had Ron as his FATHER.... do you really think he doesn't get it? He is just better at playing the game. At least a freakin' hope so....
 
It is completely ridiculous that anybody would need the disclaimer in your first point. Please feel free to talk about the holocaust without having to justify your belief in it. The fact that you feel the need to do such is a reminder that though we are not as bad as the daily paul, their are still a lot of complete nuts in our movement.

Also, Raimondo's a dumba**.

Slutter McGee

It takes a few nuts to make a good sundae. ;) I put the disclaimer in to avoid a thread derail. Seems like one person, due to his hatred of anyone who doesn't hate MLK and buy into his JBS conspiracy theories on the subject, tried to derail it anyway.

As for Raimondo, my point is that wittingly or unwittingly he's playing a much need role. If no libertarians were attacking Rand then conservatives would be more suspicious of Rand. And if we never criticize our own for doing what we criticize others of doing, than that criticism of others will no longer be considered valid. (You're going to criticize X for being an irrational Islamaphobe that spits on civil liberties but you're going to Rand a free pass when he says arrest and deport people who attend radical speeches?) I really see what's happening as a win/win.
 
I think Rand deserves a lot of leeway and trust because his strategy is working and got him elected to the U.S senate on his first attempt.

You have to be either blind or nuts to deny the success he's having and will continue to have. Sure being Ron's son helps him with fundraising but to win a senate seat in a state like Kentucky after holding no elected office and having no establishment support is impressive and people underestimate that achievement. It's actually pretty much unheard of and incredibly difficult to pull off. Take a look at the entire Senate how many had no elective office before getting there? Just Rand and Mike Lee I think.
 
I think your analysis is sound but I am skeptical of whether this strategy of Rand's will succeed. He has to walk a tightrope.

The problem I have with it is that if it does not succeed, Rand would have been better off continuing Ron's tradition as a hardliner educating the public IMO.
 
I think your analysis is sound but I am skeptical of whether this strategy of Rand's will succeed. He has to walk a tightrope.

The problem I have with it is that if it does not succeed, Rand would have been better off continuing Ron's tradition as a hardliner educating the public IMO.

Those who say that what Rand is doing to help him win the GOP primary will hurt him in the general election are 100% correct. Just last night I was talking with some friends who liked Ron but thought Rand was racist. I asked for specific examples, expecting to have to answer civil rights act question, but I didn't get any. It was all about Rand's tone and that (to them) he seemed mean spirited and hateful. And yes, they were aware of Ron's newsletter issue but still didn't think ill of Ron. (Actually, their view of Rand made them wonder if they should rethink Ron).

When I have more time I'll detail the conversation as it's worth analyzing. I think the difference is that Ron had built a reputation for attacking GOP shills so he doesn't come across as a partisan hack.

Edit: And by the end of the conversation I got them to (grudgingly) admit that Obama was as bad as Bush. Also I did point out that if they liked Ron there was really no reason for them to to have crossed over and voted for Ron in the primary. I really wish we had pushed that point harder in 2012. Ron might be president if we had.
 
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The thing I don't like about Rand (and this is why I think there is such a divide when it comes to him) is the fact that he plays politics. It can be hard to gauge what his real motivation/intention is for an action. "Is he doing it out of holding real true beliefs or playing a game to court favor with some group?". Where as Ron just comes out and tells you his goal is to promote liberty and tells you his beliefs exactly. What attracted me to Ron Paul and liberty in the first place was that Ron didn't do all the typical political pandering and nor did the libertarians that supported him. They just stated their beliefs and were motivated by them (Which I respected a lot, thus, I looked in further). I always know Ron is sincere, but I honestly don't feel that way about Rand with his rhetoric and actions. Maybe it's the fact that I like the brutal honest truth over concisely thought out political talk, I don't know.

I'm not exactly sure what Rand is trying/going to do. I suppose we'll see in time and if elected in 2016. I'll probably support him in hopes that he is playing the political system, but if he pulls a Reagan then there is no way in hell I will support his re-election. If he is elected and military bases aren't closing down overseas/troops being brought home, I think we will have our answer.
 
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Interesting analysis but I think you're overthinking things. We have a tendency here to overestimate the reach of certain people who we see mentioned a lot in these circles.

I don't really give a shit if this Raimondo guy loves or hates Rand and neither will 99% of the population. I guarantee you far less than 1% of Americans have ever even heard of him.

My problem with those who oppose Rand is I think they don't want to win. They enjoy being able to criticize from the sidelines and have an air of superiority over the "sheeple".

What happens when your guy wins? Suddenly you're "the insider", you're "the man", and you're a "shill for the government".
 
Interesting analysis but I think you're overthinking things. We have a tendency here to overestimate the reach of certain people who we see mentioned a lot in these circles.

I don't really give a shit if this Raimondo guy loves or hates Rand and neither will 99% of the population. I guarantee you far less than 1% of Americans have ever even heard of him.

My problem with those who oppose Rand is I think they don't want to win. They enjoy being able to criticize from the sidelines and have an air of superiority over the "sheeple".

What happens when your guy wins? Suddenly you're "the insider", you're "the man", and you're a "shill for the government".

Maybe. But I'll start thinking I'm overthinking when the predictions I came up with 3 years ago when I first started thinking about this stop coming true. And I'm not just talking about Raimondo. Recently Glenn Beck defended Rand against attacks coming at Rand from some libertarians. Raimondo is just an example of a bigger picture. Beck, for better or worse, has a huge audience. Beck defending Rand is good for Rand. And Beck defending Rand arguably had a muting effect on Beck attacking Rand for voting to confirm Hagel. It's really tough to say one day "The libertarian purists shouldn't attack Rand just because the disagree with him 10 or 20 percent" then turn around and say "OMG! I disagree with Rand on this one unimportant issue so I'm going to throw him under the bus!" My overall point is that the attacks by some libertarians have had a net positive on Rand's political future. I hope it will also have the result of helping Rand stay true to his father's political past. He's got to know that if he ever really blows it, there will be hell to pay. Obama has betrayed large swaths of his base without being held to account. So did Bush I and II. So did Clinton. So did Reagan to some extent. The fact that Rand can't afford to do that bolsters my already sincere belief that he wouldn't anyway.

Edit: One other thing. It don't believe it has anything to do with "not wanting to win." I believe your analysis on that, which I've seen you give before, is what is off. Speaking only for myself I want to win, but not at any price. I have friends that turned a blind eye to their own principles because they wanted Obama to win. He won. And he betrayed them.
 
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if fringe libertarians attacked rand.. then the establishment cant say that rand is a libertarian or fringed libertarian. much like how ron was painted as a libertarian instead of a republican.
 
Good, thoughtful original post.

I believe elected officials need to be held accountable and can never be given the benefit of the doubt. We’re paying their salaries, and they have a rotten track record. Give credit where it’s due, but always be vigilant. I don’t get these people that think Rand should be put on a pedestal or that any questionable move he makes has got to be part of some brilliant scheme.
 
Good, thoughtful original post.

I believe elected officials need to be held accountable and can never be given the benefit of the doubt. We’re paying their salaries, and they have a rotten track record. Give credit where it’s due, but always be vigilant. I don’t get these people that think Rand should be put on a pedestal or that any questionable move he makes has got to be part of some brilliant scheme.

Agreed. Distrusted him ever since when he bowed down to Mitt.
 
Agreed. Distrusted him ever since when he bowed down to Mitt.

He never physically "bowed down" to Mitt. Yes, he did endorse Mitt, but he said he'd endorse the Republican presidential nominee back in 2010.

Is there really any better alternative to Rand for President in the US Congress? Massie is the only guy with a perfectly clean record so far but he only just joined.
 
I think Rand should be criticized every time he does something that we disagree with, and I think that if he does enough things we disagree with, we should stop supporting him. I am also positive that he will do so few things that we disagree with, that the stances he takes that warrant reprisal will be totally trivial when compared to the overwhelming good he has done and will continue to do.
 
I think my dad is a jackass.

Rand is his own man.

I highly doubt Rand thinks his dad is a jackass.

Of course, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but Rand and Ron must be pretty close since they did spend time with each other on the campaign and in DC.
ASOL wasn't implying that Rand thinks Ron is a jackass.

The point that he was making (as it seems to me) is that sons don't always completely agree with their fathers...that applies to daughters, too. I adored my Dad (RIP), but we were different politically. Not so much that I couldn't campaign for him if he had ever run for political office...but enough that the same people would not make up our core supporters if that were so.
 
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