Why Not Bernie Sanders?

[klamath]

I respect Bernie for being consistent and think his heart is in the right place but beyond that I almost unilaterally disagree with his fixes. Nordic socialism is supported by north sea oil.

Ok, I lost that respect for Bernie after a little research. The worst thing about him is his extreme environmentalism. His cause to SAVE the world and stopping climate change would give him the moral belief that no matter how many peoples lives were destroyed it would be justified.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

Is the amount of income and wealth inequality in the United States bad?

Occupy Wall Street says yes. The vast majority of libertarians agree.

Oh really?

How egalitarian is this plan, in practice, really?

Should we care? Are we now caring about this?

Libertarianism is the antithesis of egalitarianism! Egalitarianism is totally messed up in the brain. It does not describe reality. It does not interface with reality. It is truly a revolt against nature.

 

[Chester Copperpot]

Don't forget that Bernie is also pro-gun control. He is much better on the issue than many of his Democrat counterparts, but he still supports a ban on so-called "assault rifles" and is for expanding back ground checks.

Also, didn't Bernie also completely derail the audit the Fed movement and bill? He also doesn't seem as anti-war as his rhetoric would suggest.

If you add all of this with his disastrous economic views, I'm not sure how one could see him as anything other than a fraud?

Thats what Ron said... I wasnt sure if it was that OR if Bernie felt that getting a limited audit was the only way to get something to pass???

 

[klamath]

I think anybody who thinks that Bernie Sanders is anti-war should watch this video, and take a look at the comments and the massive number of down-votes, which should clue you in that the average Sanders supporter is about as brain-dead as the average Donald Trump or Barack Obama supporter.

If cindy is telling the truth here, holy shit! I didn't realize he supported the Bosnian invasion and the Libyan invasion. I take back my statement that he is principled.

 

[Todd]

I like you Nayjevin......but this thread is akin to starting a "Why not Barack Obama?...Dennis Kucinich....or Mike Gravel" thread sometime in late 2007.

 

[acptulsa]

Partly because Sanders is not what they make him out out to be. And partly because even if he were, he's 74. Even if he's strong enough to stand up to the forces of corruption now, he won't be forever. And since he wants the federal government to micromismanage our lives, he will set up tyranny, and that tyranny will either be as awful as tyranny can be right away, or it will become that awful after he dies.

 

[jllundqu]

My god! Have people forgotten where it is we get our rights??? We get our rights as individuals from god! No government, run by friggin Sanders or anyone else, can 'decree' that certain things are 'rights' and demand forced payment for them!

Sanders' appeal is the same as any lefty liberal... "MORE FREE SHIT IF YOU VOTE FOR ME"

Sanders is truly dangerous because his message is a popular one and he gets street cred for speaking some truth to power, but make no mistake. "Nordic Socialism" could NEVER work here as it does in Scandinavia. It's a false comparison. Sweden, for example, has a small, culturally homogenous population. The U.S. is the exact opposite. We have 300+million people with vastly different value systems and cultural attitudes. Trying to force us all into some utopian socialist nightmare would result in either civil war or massive civil unrest...

How people can go from supporting Ron Paul to Bernie Sanders simply shows that people never really understood Liberty, rights, and natural law.

"Big government is the solution".... yeah.... right.

 

[JK/SEA]

fuck sanders.

end thread, or start a fuckin' moneybomb for bernie op.

 

[nayjevin]

Oh really?

You question whether my statement is true that the vast majority of libertarians believe the wealth inequality in the U.S. is bad. I think it's true. Free market capitalism would automatically reduce it. Elimination of regulations would allow greater upward mobility for small businesses. Ending the federal reserve would stop the frittering of wealth from middle and lower class savers and those who receive paychecks. Lower taxes would leave more money in the hands of the poor.

Should we care {if things are more egalitarian] ? Are we now caring about this?

It's not the goal for the libertarian, but libertarian solutions would result in a greater degree of it. I think that perhaps my being nice about criticisms of socialism has caused you to believe I am sympathetic to it, whereas you are used to being vehemently opposed to it. I don't see the pain caused by socialism as any more evil than equal pain caused by any other philosophy. I just think people who are unsettled by the status quo ought get together and find agreement.

Libertarianism is the antithesis of egalitarianism! Egalitarianism is totally messed up in the brain. It does not describe reality. It does not interface with reality. It is truly a revolt against nature.

The desire to see more equality does not necessarily equate to an understanding of historical context of egalitarianism.

 

[jllundqu]

And this OP from a staff/mod?? Bryan... how does this advance the cause? How does this post fit into the mission statement?

Am I alone here?

 

[jllundqu]

I might get banned for this, but I'm kind of disappointed in the moderation on this board. Whether it's the Trump pumping or the Bernie pumping...something doesn't seem right about it.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Sola_Fide again.

 

[Jan2017]

Rand : "Our founding documents were very clear about this, you have a right to pursue happiness but . . . (not a right to health care).

Bernie : "I guess it is fair to say Senator Paul and I have profound philosophical differences. . . . (laughter)

So Bernie thinks he won that "provocative" exchange . . . and others that he posts -
but it is obvious Bernie's brand of socialism including health care rights and Planned Parenthood funding
would turn the USA into another Sweden or something and be way too expensive and stifle potential job growth.

 

[Ronin Truth]

And this OP from a staff/mod?? Bryan... how does this advance the cause? How does this post fit into the mission statement?

Am I alone here?

FWIW, mods are allowed to occasionally stir the pot to keep things interesting too.

 

[nayjevin]

fuck sanders.

end thread, or start a fuckin' moneybomb for bernie op.

I think your implication is that I am supporting bernie sanders for president? I don't hold the illusion that I have enough power to control who becomes president, but I wouldn't choose Sanders. I think Rand Paul understands history and economics much better. But many people excited by the prospect of a different kind of candidate are/would be my friends.

 

[Krugminator2]

"He will also enact a tax on Wall Street speculators who caused millions of Americans to lose their jobs, homes, and life savings."

I like this, because to hell with 'em! But we are looking at endorsing a policy of letting government decide who it's okay to take money from, based on who is most hated at the time. I think we need to look a bit further down the road than that.

--

Speculators are heroes. All good things come about because of speculation. Just as Ron Paul would say, demonizing speculators was bad when the Emperor Diocletian did it which led to famine just as it is a bad idea now.

Bernie Sanders is a talking about a transaction tax. That is the worst idea on the planet. That would cause mass suffering. Traders create liquidity which is a big part of what creates the valuation companies. A transaction tax would make it much harder for companies raise capital and it would cause capital flight out of the company. A reason Wall Street is so successful is that despite its problems it is still the best place in the world to park money because we don't have as many taxes and regulations.

Here is what happened when Sweden implemented one in 1983. Their stock market immediately dropped 8% and it ended in a depression 8 years later when they got rid of it. It is an evil, immoral tax not on evil financial people, but on everyone. Read up and stare into the abyss that Bernie Sanders would cause. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_financial_transaction_tax This tax would lead to capital controls. That is the current accepted way to make it work.

 

[nayjevin]

FWIW, mods are allowed to occasionally stir the pot to keep things interesting too.

That's not my intention at all, I would enjoy a discussion with honest Sanders supporters as much as anyone else passionate about politics and increasing justice.

I'm not in favor of the status quo. Shit ain't right. This is a war of ideas, and a challenge to find agreement.

The way folks get riled up and fight about politics isn't working. It keeps us divided. I encourage peace and friendship with everyone, entangling alliances with none.

 

[nayjevin]

Speculators are heroes. All good things come about because of speculation. Just as Ron Paul would say, demonizing speculators was bad when the Emperor Diocletian did it which led to famine just as it is a bad idea now.

Bernie Sanders is a talking about a transaction tax. That is the worst idea on the planet. That would cause mass suffering. Traders create liquidity which is a big part of what creates the valuation companies. A transaction tax would make it much harder for companies raise capital and it would cause capital flight out of the company. A reason Wall Street is so successful is that despite its problems it is still the best place in the world to park money because we don't have as many taxes and regulations.

Here is what happened when Sweden implemented one in 1983. Their stock market immediately dropped 8% and it ended in a depression 8 years later when they got rid of it. It is an evil, immoral tax not on evil financial people, but on everyone. Read up and stare into the abyss that Bernie Sanders would cause. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_financial_transaction_tax

Great post. I was confusing speculators and investors with the beneficiaries of Fed policy and the recipients of bailouts/favoritism.

 

[Ronin Truth]

That's not my intention at all, I would enjoy a discussion with honest Sanders supporters as much as anyone else passionate about politics and increasing justice.

I'm not in favor of the status quo. Shit ain't right. This is a war of ideas, and a challenge to find agreement.

The way folks get riled up and fight about politics isn't working. It keeps us divided. I encourage peace and friendship with everyone, entangling alliances with none.

Seems an awful lot like forum pot stirring and cage rattling to me. (I should know. )

Carry on.

 

[nayjevin]

Seems an awful lot like forum pot stirring and cage rattling to me. (I should know. )

Carry on.

I'm either underestimating the degree to which being diplomatic about criticising certain philosophies will upset people, or I'm underestimating the inclination to attack me instead of Sander's ideas, or I'm seeing the recognition that any kind of unity among disparate philosophies that are anti-establishment is scary to the trollhandlers.

 

[moostraks]

That's not my intention at all, I would enjoy a discussion with honest Sanders supporters as much as anyone else passionate about politics and increasing justice.

I'm not in favor of the status quo. Shit ain't right. This is a war of ideas, and a challenge to find agreement.

The way folks get riled up and fight about politics isn't working. It keeps us divided. I encourage peace and friendship with everyone, entangling alliances with none.

I got that impression from what was posted in the OP. There was a certain manner which Ron Paul had of bringing together people and promoted a coalition between unlikely forces. You cannot very well find a means of speaking peace with another person until you attempt to understand what the appeal is to the candidate inspiring them.

It seems my exposure, limited as it may be, is that Sanders supporters are all to frequently much younger idealists which don't listen to the explanations of the weaknesses within his solutions any more than the hard right listens to folks who questions their candidates' solutions for the future, in the case of the hard right all too frequently it seems they believe their experiences or history justifies them.