Why not an American Union?

Michelangelo

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I am planning to write on the topic of American integration and figured it'd be good to hear from the other side.

Does anyone here oppose greater integration between the American nations? And if so, why?

Now let us clarify a few things. I am not asking to be told how NAFTA and other 'free' trade agreements have several exclusions. NAFTA is not perfect but given the political environment of its time it was the best agreement that could be made. I am not asking to be preached about how we should outright abolish nation-states and allow individuals to freely trade with one another regardless of imaginary lines on the ground.

I am asking why someone should be against expanding NAFTA to include central America, the Caribbean, or possibly the entire American continent under a Free Trade Area of the Americas-esque agreement.

I am asking why someone should be against allowing nationals of American states to freely live and work in one another country, in an agreement similar to the European Schengen area. Migrants under this scheme would ideally not be allowed to vote or access welfare benefits.

I am asking why someone should be against the political unification of the American continent - and I dare avoiding the 'sovereignty' complaint. The United States of America is already a supranational entity that has swallowed up various independent states. It is regrettable that states have been denied the right to secede at will, but all in all I believe as a people we have benefited from a common market. Why then not invite our neighbors to apply for statehood?
 
I am planning to write on the topic of American integration and figured it'd be good to hear from the other side.

Does anyone here oppose greater integration between the American nations? And if so, why?

Now let us clarify a few things. I am not asking to be told how NAFTA and other 'free' trade agreements have several exclusions. NAFTA is not perfect but given the political environment of its time it was the best agreement that could be made. I am not asking to be preached about how we should outright abolish nation-states and allow individuals to freely trade with one another regardless of imaginary lines on the ground.

I am asking why someone should be against expanding NAFTA to include central America, the Caribbean, or possibly the entire American continent under a Free Trade Area of the Americas-esque agreement.

I am asking why someone should be against allowing nationals of American states to freely live and work in one another country, in an agreement similar to the European Schengen area. Migrants under this scheme would ideally not be allowed to vote or access welfare benefits.

I am asking why someone should be against the political unification of the American continent - and I dare avoiding the 'sovereignty' complaint. The United States of America is already a supranational entity that has swallowed up various independent states. It is regrettable that states have been denied the right to secede at will, but all in all I believe as a people we have benefited from a common market. Why then not invite our neighbors to apply for statehood?
The answer to all of what your asking is: None of this is as valuable as having Chinese workers willing to build everything while we sit on our asses and cubicles.


I love how you scoff at sovereignty, as if it's something that is happening. That's cute.
 
Does everyone in the Americas have the same sort of benefits? Does everyone pay the same in taxes? Can Belize and Nigeria afford to meet the unfunded mandates the federal government forces states, counties and municipalities into? Do they want to pay that much for that garbage? Would they rather feed people instead? Do they want to be responsible for our incredibly irresponsible debt? Do they want our federal regulations that make it a crime to cook food in an non-certified kitchen for your neighbors, and all kinds of other silly crap? Considering the federal government is doing one hell of a piss poor job of micromanaging the whole country at the moment, don't you think some preparation--by way, perhaps, of scaling back federal overreach--might be advisable before the idiots in Washington take on places they can't even find on a map?

Does everyone even speak the same language? Don't you think that might be helpful? Do we all want to speak the same language?
 
We have people that already want to add Puerto Rico as the 51st state. It seems like we are accepting an unlimited number of people from those areas you mentioned.

We are moving in the direction you want, albeit slowly.
 
The answer to all of what your asking is: None of this is as valuable as having Chinese workers willing to build everything while we sit on our asses and cubicles.


I love how you scoff at sovereignty, as if it's something that is happening. That's cute.

As wages in China (PRC) increase it is becoming cheaper to use labor from Latin America, especially when transportation costs are accounted for.

Because "whenever something is wrong, something is too big." And "small is beautiful, but it is also efficient."

I want to bust this bigass bitch up, and you clowns want to make it even bigger? Talk about dupes, tools, and gluttons for punishment!

There is a difference between physical enlargement and enlarging the central government's power. The two are not correlated.

For example, France is smaller than the US and has a far more centralized government. Spain, similar in size to France, meanwhile is much more decentralized.

Denmark and Switzerland are both of the same size relatively. The latter is a radical example of decentralization, the former not so much.

There is good reason to believe that increasing the United States to include its neighbors might roll back the scope of the federal government. The federal government should ideally only deal with national defense and ensuring free trade among the states. Welfare programs and other fiscal redistribution schemes would quickly lose popularity if 'others' had access to them. How many democrats would support Obamacare if they had to pay to provide those benefits to Argentinians? There is value in homogeneity, but there is also value in heterogeneity.

You want a society that has enough common values to reduce transaction costs, but also diverse enough that competing groups keep the size of the federal government small enough to avoid it being used against themselves.

Does everyone in the Americas have the same sort of benefits? Does everyone pay the same in taxes? Can Belize and Nigeria afford to meet the unfunded mandates the federal government forces states, counties and municipalities into? Do they want to pay that much for that garbage? Would they rather feed people instead? Do they want to be responsible for our incredibly irresponsible debt? Do they want our federal regulations that make it a crime to cook food in an non-certified kitchen for your neighbors, and all kinds of other silly crap? Considering the federal government is doing one hell of a piss poor job of micromanaging the whole country at the moment, don't you think some preparation--by way, perhaps, of scaling back federal overreach--might be advisable before the idiots in Washington take on places they can't even find on a map?

Does everyone even speak the same language? Don't you think that might be helpful? Do we all want to speak the same language?

Nigeria isn't part of the American continent?

Is is not clear that speaking the same language is desirable. Is there a benefit to a lingua franca? Yes, and that is why English is currently the world language. French, Greek, and Latin have all had their time periods as the lingua franca of the western world. The existence of a lingua franca does not however preclude allowing regional languages. Also, even if having the same language was desirable, it is unclear why we should not try to integrate with the rest of Anglo-America (i.e. the Bahamas, Canada, the rest of the British Caribbean etc.)

The United States federal government is awful. However in relative terms it does a good job. There is a reason why the United States is a magnet for migrants around the world after all. I suspect many nations would prefer to be part of the US if it gave them access to better economic institutions. Is there a cost to joining the US? Yes, but it would also presumably come with in exchange for better institutions than the ones these countries currently have.

Also see my above note; if new states joined the US we might very well see the cost of joining the federation lowered as federal welfare programs were repealed and/or rolled back. The enlargement of the United States might very well lead to it adopting more libertarian-oriented policies if it causes groups to grow distrustworthy of one another in the political arena.

smaller > bigger ...

See my above post about the difference between physical and jurisdiction size.

We have people that already want to add Puerto Rico as the 51st state. It seems like we are accepting an unlimited number of people from those areas you mentioned.

We are moving in the direction you want, albeit slowly.

Not quickly enough!
 
What about the Constitution (the Law of the Land)

Will those other countries adopt our Constitution. Or will it be thrown out.

What about the 2nd amendment? Will this "union" allow for armed citizenry?

or do we throw that out?
 
I am planning to write on the topic of American integration and figured it'd be good to hear from the other side.

Does anyone here oppose greater integration between the American nations? And if so, why?

Now let us clarify a few things. I am not asking to be told how NAFTA and other 'free' trade agreements have several exclusions. NAFTA is not perfect but given the political environment of its time it was the best agreement that could be made. I am not asking to be preached about how we should outright abolish nation-states and allow individuals to freely trade with one another regardless of imaginary lines on the ground.

I am asking why someone should be against expanding NAFTA to include central America, the Caribbean, or possibly the entire American continent under a Free Trade Area of the Americas-esque agreement.

I am asking why someone should be against allowing nationals of American states to freely live and work in one another country, in an agreement similar to the European Schengen area. Migrants under this scheme would ideally not be allowed to vote or access welfare benefits.

I am asking why someone should be against the political unification of the American continent - and I dare avoiding the 'sovereignty' complaint. The United States of America is already a supranational entity that has swallowed up various independent states. It is regrettable that states have been denied the right to secede at will, but all in all I believe as a people we have benefited from a common market. Why then not invite our neighbors to apply for statehood?

Were you sleeping through the Eurozone financial crisis? Note that it's not over. http://www.economist.com/news/finan...ne-economies-looks-unsustainable-back-reality Why would you want to replicate that disaster in the western hemisphere? And even then, regional economic differences between north and south led to a civil war. I'm glad we weren't linked to Mexico when they had their peso crisis or Argentina when they had their peso crisis. Only someone insane would actually want that. Now as far as people being free to travel across borders, we had that prior to World War I. It's security concerns which have grown from our own decadent internationalism which initially caused border crossing to be restricted and not nativism. When Britain inhumanely blockaded Germany, causing Germany to respond with unrestricted submarine warfare, we should have told both nations "We will only trade in our own hemisphere until you sort this crap out."

And as far as the United States, that was a group of states with a common language and culture and ruled by a single entity (Great Britain) and it made perfect sense for those states to come together. Even then, regional economic differences ultimately led to the U.S. Civil War.

Meanwhile the Spanish speaking countries can't even come together on their own. Why should we come together with them?
 
There is a difference between physical enlargement and enlarging the central government's power. The two are not correlated.

For example, France is smaller than the US and has a far more centralized government. Spain, similar in size to France, meanwhile is much more decentralized.

Denmark and Switzerland are both of the same size relatively. The latter is a radical example of decentralization, the former not so much.

It would be more apt to compare the US with empires, not countries.
IRT size, I doubt those Zeroes would have made it all the way to California.
Expansion means even more war.
 
What about the Constitution (the Law of the Land)

Will those other countries adopt our Constitution. Or will it be thrown out.

What about the 2nd amendment? Will this "union" allow for armed citizenry?

or do we throw that out?

If American integration is done by allowing new states to join, no it wouldn't be thrown out. The bill of rights would remain as is.

Why do you support socialism? (it is failure everywhere)

ME_141_LibertarianDebate2-640x199.png



Four layers of government not enough for you? SHEESH! :rolleyes:

Elaborate on your argument. Would you prefer one layer of government? Would you prefer if state governments were abolished and only the feds existed? Or do you think two layers is best? Why?

(Please note my initial post: I'm not looking to hear AnCap arguments, so please don't respond with "I'd rather have no layers!".)

Were you sleeping through the Eurozone financial crisis? Note that it's not over. http://www.economist.com/news/finan...ne-economies-looks-unsustainable-back-reality Why would you want to replicate that disaster in the western hemisphere? And even then, regional economic differences between north and south led to a civil war. I'm glad we weren't linked to Mexico when they had their peso crisis or Argentina when they had their peso crisis. Only someone insane would actually want that. Now as far as people being free to travel across borders, we had that prior to World War I. It's security concerns which have grown from our own decadent internationalism which initially caused border crossing to be restricted and not nativism. When Britain inhumanely blockaded Germany, causing Germany to respond with unrestricted submarine warfare, we should have told both nations "We will only trade in our own hemisphere until you sort this crap out."

And as far as the United States, that was a group of states with a common language and culture and ruled by a single entity (Great Britain) and it made perfect sense for those states to come together. Even then, regional economic differences ultimately led to the U.S. Civil War.

Meanwhile the Spanish speaking countries can't even come together on their own. Why should we come together with them?

I'm not proposing a currency union, although several Latin American countries use the US dollar. Many others peg their currency to the dollar. I personally favor de-nationalizing currencies as suggested by Hayek.

For the sake of argument though let us assume that American integration came along with an 'Amero' common currency. This might lead to greater financial stability for Latin America. The Federal Reserve sucks, but relative to other central banks it actually doesn't inflate our currency that much. I'm not saying that inflation isn't a serious issue. I'm saying that I would much rather have my currency controlled by the Fed than the Argentinian central bank.

Jesus Huerta de Soto makes a similar argument in defense of the euro. There are flaws with the euro, but it has been good in so far that it has reduced inflation in countries like Spain which would not otherwise willingly adopt (relatively) tight money policies preferred by the German-dominated European Central Bank.

In review:

(1) De-Nationalized/Private Currency > (2) US Dollar > (3) Other National Currencies

The (1) first isn't an option for the time being. Therefore (2) is the best choice. If (1) becomes a choice we should of course take it!

As for why the rest of Latin America hasn't come together, it actually has made several strides towards lowering trade barriers (in goods and people) in recent years. It seems however that a long lasting federation needs a strong party inside the federation that the other members can agree to concede a leadership role to. Brazil is possibly the only country down there that is large enough to take up such a role, but Spanish America is not willing to concede such a role to it. You can see this play out whenever someone proposes Brazil be given a UN security council seat. The United States is the only country that is both large enough and able to command the necessary respect from the rest of the American countries.

And once more, even if integration with Latin America is not feasible, why not attempt to integrate with the rest of Anglo-America? Canada, the Bahamas, Jamaica, Belize, etc?

It would be more apt to compare the US with empires, not countries.
IRT size, I doubt those Zeroes would have made it all the way to California.
Expansion means even more war.

Very well. Are 'smaller', in the geographical sense, empires better than larger ones?

Would you prefer to live in the United States or the German Empire (the Prussian led one in the 19th-20th century)? The former is more decentralized despite being larger in size and population.


It makes no difference: "smaller > bigger" in either case, geographically or jurisdictionally.

Or to put it another way, "disunion > union" ...

Do you concede at least that there is a cost to being small independent polity?

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Just so we're clear, American integration need not mean a larger federal government in term of scope. Consider the Hanseatic League. The league allowed the individual cities a great degree of autonomy when it came to domestic affairs, but bound them to a common defense pact and promoted free trade among them.

A physically larger United States might paradoxically encourage its federal government to shrink in size in terms of jurisdiction. All parties can agree to the benefit of trade and a common defense, but they would be less willing to agree to welfare programs or other redistribution schemes. The fact that several American countries could not adopt the welfare system of the US is an argument for, not against, greater integration. By necessity the federation would have to be reformed so that only trade, defense, and a few other duties would be dealt with by the federal government.

One of the problems with the EU I think is that it seems to think that countries should reach a certain threshold before being allowed to join. To the contrary, you want to increase diversity in order to induce reform in federal politics. There is of course a downside of too much diversity. This is why I am not proposing that we go and ask Pakistan or India too join. Why not however consider inviting a nation like Jamaica though?

It is English speaking. Has a common law system. Its descended from the British Empire. Geographically it is closer to the mainland than Hawaii or some of the more far flung parts of the union. Indeed, is it not strange that Hawaii is a state but Anglo-American Caribbean countries like the Bahamas or Jamaica aren't? Let us remember that several American founders were born in the Anglo-Caribbean and our early economy was strongly tied to those curious islands.
 
Elaborate on your argument. Would you prefer one layer of government? Would you prefer if state governments were abolished and only the feds existed? Or do you think two layers is best? Why?

(Please note my initial post: I'm not looking to hear AnCap arguments, so please don't respond with "I'd rather have no layers!".)

Then you obviously really have no interest at all in any of my arguments. Who cares? :p <shrug>
 
What about the Constitution (the Law of the Land)

Will those other countries adopt our Constitution. Or will it be thrown out.

What about the 2nd amendment? Will this "union" allow for armed citizenry?

or do we throw that out?

It would simply be discarded...not that it already isn't without a union. Another one would be drafted for the union, no doubt. The European union is a failure, just ask the Irish.
 
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