Why men earn more

[Sandman33]

The laws you have in your state are the problem. Get involved and get them changed. I live in Texas; it is a right to work state. You can fire anyone any damn time you want and for any reason, or no reason at all.


You aren't speaking the truth. You come across as angry at women who want a career. You appear to be letting your personal experiences cloud your judgment.


So, you've been burned and you're angry, right?


I agree with that.


Some women do and some women, do NOT. Women are individuals. Treat them as such.


Stereotyping just a bit, or what?

Try respecting women and you may find that some respect you right back.


Yeah, me too. I'm sick of both sides of this deal, because both so-called sides are crap. If you stick with treating people as individuals and respect them as such, things will work out much better.

Yes, the law is the problem, and so are the crutches that women get, yet claim to be equal...while always claiming the minority/victim/oppressed card as well.

I have not personally been burned in any court. I have been smart enough to dodge that bullet. But I have seen countless friends and family members get absolutely raped in court by thier wives and even girlfriends. And I mean absolutely RAPED.

I'm also not speaking about EVERY woman but women in general and society as it currently sits. You are quite an intelligent woman and I'm sure that you understand that now.

I have never stated that women shouldn't work or that they don't deserve to be paid like a man as long as she performs the same. I believe that women SHOULD have the same opportunites as men as long as they can do the same job as well as the next man can. THATS EQUALTY and thats what the original feminists were supposed to be about....but what we are left with is nothing less than a tragic farce that eats at societies organs like cancer.

And assuming that I don't respect women is absolutely INSULTING... I do respect women and I treat them VERY well. Especially women that act like ladies and hold some semblance of CLASS rather than your typical MTV generation foul mothed tart.

 

[strapko]

HERE IS SOME ECONOMIC LOGIC FOR YOU WHY WOMEN EARN LESS.

Lets set the ratio at 10 to 7 between man and women. Now the reason women get paid less is not because of sexism or racism, but because of productivity. Also I will show you how a free-market eliminates sexism and racism.

If it is true that women get paid less, just because they are women but produce the same amount and work just as well as men, in a free market it would be unsustainable. Because a smart capitalist would just hire women and have the same productivity for cheaper thus eliminating all the male workers from the work-force and those sexist male hiring pigs. Now with the minimum wage laws sexism and racism finds its way into the market. Lets say the min wage is 10.. Now the sexist male hiring people have no reason to hire a women, because men are worth 10 on the market and women 7.

There are reasons for lower productivity and empirical evidence as well. But I just wanted to show you the reasoning that women do not get paid less just because they are women.

 

[Theocrat]

To LE: A Man's Perspective on Women in the Family vs. the Market

I agree that women should be treated as individuals, LE. However, we're not talking about individual rights here, per se, but what the ideal or appropriate roles of women should be in society. Of course, not all women are in the same circumstances (such as single moms vs. married moms), and, sure, some women don't want kids nor stay in their homes married on one income.

However, there are social and economic ramifications for women entering the workforce, and inherently, it effects men. Because so many businesses are required by law to hire women and men equally, it actually puts more men on their couches in competing with women for jobs. From a religious/philosophical view, men are not created or "wired" to just stay at home. Men are aggressors, and we like to get dirty and be challenged. (I'll have the men correct me on that if they believe I'm wrong.) For those of us men who wish to take care of our households and have our wives stay home and with our children (for educational and social reasons), it becomes very difficult for us to do that when many jobs in the market are given over to women.

Lest I be misunderstood, I am not saying that there aren't occasions when women can and should work outside the home. Single moms are the epitome of that reality. Even if the kids are away to college, I don't think it's wrong for women to work outside the home. However, I believe due to our affluent culture and want to chase after "the American Dream," it has led many women to leave their homes, give their kids over to the government schools (with the husbands approval, too), and seek a double income for the family.

Some people may say that having a double income is necessary for a family to survive in our current economy, and maybe there is some truth to that. However, I would use the families at my church as proof that that may not be true. Ninety-nine percent of the families in my church live on one income, and they have lots of kids (my pastor has eight of his own). Yet, when you visit their homes, they are generally well-taken care of, and the children are happy, humble, and honored by the parents. It is really an amazing sight to see. The women prefer to stay at home, and they recognize it as their duty to support their husbands and take care of their children at home, as opposed to making more money. To them, the souls of their kids is more important than making sales at a business.

That is how I believe women were created or "wired." It is not an infringement of individual rights. It is the taking of responsibility and priority to one's own family. The family is the basic unit of any successful civilization. Like civil government, there are certain rules and duties which are necessary to ensure a prosperous and peaceful people within a given society. The individual is important, but so are the roles of those individuals, as defined by God Who gives us our rights to begin with.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Theo,

I understand all that. What I take issue with is a bunch of men who think they can decide what a woman's appropriate role IS. It's degrading and insulting, is what it is.

Personally, I think that women who have children, should do everything in their power to stay home with those children until they are grown. Other women cannot, or do not, choose to have children; and many times, these women want to pursue a career. Be it as a doctor, a lawyer, a scientist, an engineer, a computer programmer, or whatever. They should have that right to do that.

You know what some of you guys sound like? Men who don't think they can compete. So, they want to take their competition out of the market. Sorry, but that's what it's starting to come across like. Do you realize that?

 

[Theocrat]

What I Take Issue With

Theo,

I understand all that. What I take issue with is a bunch of men who think they can decide what a woman's appropriate role IS. It's degrading and insulting, is what it is.

Personally, I think that women who have children, should do everything in their power to stay home with those children until they are grown. Other women cannot, or do not, choose to have children; and many times, these women want to pursue a career. Be it as a doctor, a lawyer, a scientist, an engineer, a computer programmer, or whatever. They should have that right to do that.

You know what some of you guys sound like? Men who don't think they can compete. So, they want to take their competition out of the market. Sorry, but that's what it's starting to come across like. Do you realize that?

I have confidence in competing for jobs in the market. However, I am not confident in the level of objectivity which employers (and by extension, the government) use to determine who gets hired. Our American culture is increasingly giving me less hope about that. We have laws which say Black people should get hired before White people, no matter if the White person is ten times more qualified and experienced than the Black person. Those same laws detail that women should be hired over more qualified men just because they have a vagina and the business needs to fulfill a quota, if I can put it so bluntly. That is what men like myself take issue with in competing for jobs. We're not trying to take competition out of the market so much as trying to ensure rationality and an objective standard for hiring the right people, with a hint of philosophical justification for our ideals of roles in society.

Do all employers hire in the same way? No. Do I believe businesses have a right to hire whomever they want because it's their business (mind the pun)? Yes. However, I have a personal problem with a woman getting hired over a man just because she got knocked up at a club one night, the man left her alone with the baby, and she now has some arbitrary right to be on the top of the hiring list at a Fortune 500 company over a guy who worked his way through college, earned two degrees, has no kids, and would like to marry his girlfriend so she can be taken care of at home with his kids on his income. That is where I'm coming from. The government's involvement to "equalize" the playing field has not helped us out at all, and what's worse is that it has produced the very things which it sought to get rid of, namely, racism and sexism in the job market.

 

[Sandman33]

HERE IS SOME ECONOMIC LOGIC FOR YOU WHY WOMEN EARN LESS.

Lets set the ratio at 10 to 7 between man and women. Now the reason women get paid less is not because of sexism or racism, but because of productivity. Also I will show you how a free-market eliminates sexism and racism.

If it is true that women get paid less, just because they are women but produce the same amount and work just as well as men, in a free market it would be unsustainable. Because a smart capitalist would just hire women and have the same productivity for cheaper thus eliminating all the male workers from the work-force and those sexist male hiring pigs. Now with the minimum wage laws sexism and racism finds its way into the market. Lets say the min wage is 10.. Now the sexist male hiring people have no reason to hire a women, because men are worth 10 on the market and women 7.

There are reasons for lower productivity and empirical evidence as well. But I just wanted to show you the reasoning that women do not get paid less just because they are women.

True...now add in the fact that most wages are negotiated, not set by the particualar job.

If the wage is negotiated and women are paid less...you can't blame men for being better negotiators....after all, that would be sexist now woudnt it.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Yeah, I agree, Theo. This is just another thing that the government needs to get their noses out of.

People today just want immediate gratification. If they were treated badly (verbally) at work by some male jackass, they want some kind of law to stop them. That's frankly only happened to me with one individual and he was a nice guy, but his sexual innuendos and advancements had become disgusting. I finally had enough and it only took me saying one thing to him to get him to stop and never do it again. A male co-worker was in the meeting with me at the time I did it. His comment was... "you OWN his ass".

Early in my career, I also had to deal with more than a few men who didn't think women should be in corporate America, much less management, and would come right out and tell you that. It's a bit irritating, but once you show them through hard work and quality deliverables that you're well worth it, they will come around. And when they do, they will be your biggest fans. I venture to say that after they encounter several women they learn to respect, that their worldview changes. To me, that is how you change opinions. Not by government force. Oh, and that gentleman I was referring to earlier; it was in a different company, but he asked me for a job 15 years later.

 

[TGGRV]

I agree with you 100%.

Between "womens menstrual sick days" materity leave, the threat of crippling sexaul harrassment suits, showing up late, leaving early, taking johnny to soccer, and refusing to put in the same effort that men do....hiring women is a liability to an employer that simply wants productivity out of his business.

And yes all those state and govt crutches that women get that you mentioned aren't helping "equality" either. Nor are they helping society at all. In fact it's more of the bullshit that I believe Ron Paul would cut.

I don't want guaranteed maternity leave or shit like that. I'd be paid more without it and I'd save and put the bigger wage to a better use than some regulation does. It's STUPID! I wish people would get it.

LibertyEagle, the problem is that there are judges like Sotomayor who tossed out promotion tests because blacks failed. lol. If you'd fire a woman, your business would be done. And I was using productivity in the economic sense, which is results/costs. Productivity can apply to any type of labour and even to capital, lands or whatever. And to answer you why women aren't on this thread. Women don't have time for politics because putting make-up on two faces takes a lot of effort. And yes, it is insulting when anyone tells others what their role is. My mother makes more than my father for instance and she had a 3.98GPA in university and loves what she does. She also had me and even though I had my share of moral failures, my parents not controlling my life allowed me to learn from them and come to my own conclusions about things.

Sandman, you said this:"I believe that women SHOULD have the same opportunites as men as long as they can do the same job as well as the next man can." You confuse opportunities with conditions. Women should have the same opportunities regardless - like going to college, becoming a CEO. If they can't fructify their opportunities, they won't become that thing. You wanted to say equal conditions - actually becoming a CEO because she can do the job, not because she has hoo hoos and a cooter.

Theocrat, nobody has a right to tell me what role I have in society. What you propose, is the same deal as feminism, it's just that it has a different message. I never claimed that marriage is slavery and that kind of things, but women should get married because they want to, not because that's how society says it should be. A lot of today's societal problems come from this - forcing my idea on everyone - point of view. And a staple of any free society is the government being separate from the church and out of people's day to day lives. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And I agree to you about favourable laws for women, I'm against them. As I said before, I'm with you on affirmative action laws. I believe that they're immoral.

EDIT: I want to add to what Liberty said. I worked at a casino before as a card dealer so that I help my parents with the bills and my boss one time groped me and I pushed him away and told him that I'm not interested and I will talk to his superior if he does it again. Then I got sick and needed surgery and I got it and he fired me while I was hospitalized. I didn't sue him or the casino.

 

[LATruth]

According to some sources the womens movement was co-opted by the elite to earn more in tax revenue and disband the family. The woman's role in human history has always been the caregiver, homemaker, etc. The man's role has always been the hunter/provider. Only recently have woman been in this equality race as far as the workplace goes. I'm not saying women aren't equal as humans, just the family is definitely suffering from the dual income household. All one has to do is take a look at the last 2 generations children and the evidence is overwhelming. IMO women should take more pride in staying home raising a family correctly than the woman trying to climb a corporate ladder in the so called rat race. I'm not trying to be sexist here, but 1960 to present in no means overshadows 10,000BC - 1960AD. Again, look at our children, and remember that our children are our future.

 

[Sandman33]

I don't want guaranteed maternity leave or shit like that. I'd be paid more without it and I'd save and put the bigger wage to a better use than some regulation does. It's STUPID! I wish people would get it.

LibertyEagle, the problem is that there are judges like Sotomayor who tossed out promotion tests because blacks failed. lol. If you'd fire a woman, your business would be done. And I was using productivity in the economic sense, which is results/costs. Productivity can apply to any type of labour and even to capital, lands or whatever. And to answer you why women aren't on this thread. Women don't have time for politics because putting make-up on two faces takes a lot of effort. And yes, it is insulting when anyone tells others what their role is. My mother makes more than my father for instance and she had a 3.98GPA in university and loves what she does. She also had me and even though I had my share of moral failures, my parents not controlling my life allowed me to learn from them and come to my own conclusions about things.

Sandman, you said this:"I believe that women SHOULD have the same opportunites as men as long as they can do the same job as well as the next man can." You confuse opportunities with conditions. Women should have the same opportunities regardless - like going to college, becoming a CEO. If they can't fructify their opportunities, they won't become that thing. You wanted to say equal conditions - actually becoming a CEO because she can do the job, not because she has hoo hoos and a cooter.

Theocrat, nobody has a right to tell me what role I have in society. What you propose, is the same deal as feminism, it's just that it has a different message. I never claimed that marriage is slavery and that kind of things, but women should get married because they want to, not because that's how society says it should be. A lot of today's societal problems come from this - forcing my idea on everyone - point of view. And a staple of any free society is the government being separate from the church and out of people's day to day lives. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And I agree to you about favourable laws for women, I'm against them. As I said before, I'm with you on affirmative action laws. I believe that they're immoral.

EDIT: I want to add to what Liberty said. I worked at a casino before as a card dealer so that I help my parents with the bills and my boss one time groped me and I pushed him away and told him that I'm not interested and I will talk to his superior if he does it again. Then I got sick and needed surgery and I got it and he fired me while I was hospitalized. I didn't sue him or the casino.

I agree.

You should not be forced into marriage. You should only get married if you want to. But marriage and monogamy should be praised and pushed instead of career hunting and promiscutity of today. Do you agree with that?

Your boss never should have groped you. But you telling him that his agression was unwanted should have stopped him, and apparently it did...problem solved. No need for lawsuits or other bullshit. Now if he kept it up thats a different story.

He never should have fired you if you were sick. I would have probably at least asked for some legal advice in that situation. That sounds like unlawfull termination to me and quite immoral.

 

[Bman]

According to some sources the womens movement was co-opted by the elite to earn more in tax revenue and disband the family. The woman's role in human history has always been the caregiver, homemaker, etc. The man's role has always been the hunter/provider. Only recently have woman been in this equality race as far as the workplace goes. I'm not saying women aren't equal as humans, just the family is definitely suffering from the dual income household. All one has to do is take a look at the last 2 generations children and the evidence is overwhelming. IMO women should take more pride in staying home raising a family correctly than the woman trying to climb a corporate ladder in the so called rat race. I'm not trying to be sexist here, but 1960 to present in no means overshadows 10,000BC - 1960AD. Again, look at our children, and remember that our children are our future.

I think more women would take pride staying at home rasing their children if they could afford to.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Yeah, I agree, Theo. This is just another thing that the government needs to get their noses out of.

People today just want immediate gratification. If they were treated badly (verbally) at work by some male jackass, they want some kind of law to stop them. That's frankly only happened to me with one individual and he was a nice guy, but his sexual innuendos and advancements had become disgusting. I finally had enough and it only took me saying one thing to him to get him to stop and never do it again. A male co-worker was in the meeting with me at the time I did it. His comment was... "you OWN his ass".

Early in my career, I also had to deal with more than a few men who didn't think women should be in corporate America, much less management, and would come right out and tell you that. It's a bit irritating, but once you show them through hard work and quality deliverables that you're well worth it, they will come around. And when they do, they will be your biggest fans. I venture to say that after they encounter several women they learn to respect, that their worldview changes. To me, that is how you change opinions. Not by government force. Oh, and that gentleman I was referring to earlier; it was in a different company, but he asked me for a job 15 years later.

I applaud you for living a virtuous life.

 

[LATruth]

I think more women would take pride staying at home rasing their children if they could afford to.

As stated, they are also suffering from the necessity of the dual income household. We don't, as Americans, know how to live simply and within our means. We have been taught to extend lines of credit and leverage money as if we had it when we don't. By who? The banks. Go figure.

 

[Theocrat]

A Point Well-Taken

Theocrat, nobody has a right to tell me what role I have in society. What you propose, is the same deal as feminism, it's just that it has a different message. I never claimed that marriage is slavery and that kind of things, but women should get married because they want to, not because that's how society says it should be. A lot of today's societal problems come from this - forcing my idea on everyone - point of view. And a staple of any free society is the government being separate from the church and out of people's day to day lives. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And I agree to you about favourable laws for women, I'm against them. As I said before, I'm with you on affirmative action laws. I believe that they're immoral.

When I mentioned what the role of women should be in the family and society, I was speaking from a Biblical perspective in ideal terms. As I've admitted previously, I know that not all women will be able to work as housewives, especially those who are single moms. I also conceded that women will work outside the home if their kids are in college away from home.

However, if a husband and wife have kids, I think it is better for the wife to stay home and nurture their children while the husband works than it is for the couple to give over their children to the government public schools. I have objective warrant for that from the Bible, but I doubt you would submit to that authority. Sacrificing one's kids to the State in education when the parents' responsibility is to train their own kids is heinous, in my opinion. I understand there are exceptions, but as others have mentioned, I believe most married women with kids move into a career of their own outside the home because that is what 21st century American (secular) culture tells them to do.

Whether or not a woman should have kids opens up a whole other can of worms, which I'm sure many on these forums would have staunch disagreement with me about. Suffice it to say that I see the purpose of marriage as not just a means of companionship, but also a blessed unit in producing children for future generations. I'm not necessarily telling you that you should have kids, but I do question why a couple would enter into a marriage covenant and not ever consider having them.

 

[Bman]

We don't, as Americans, know how to live simply and within our means.

As much as everything has been inflated it's kind of hard to get a perspective on this comment.

 

[Objectivist]

Capitalist lies. All people are equal, no matter how much lipstick pigs try to put on this prejudice. This is simply class warfare being waged against the poor and middle class struggling to survive by having both partners work. Mr. DiLorenzo is obviously an anti-feminist Neo-Nazi sellout.

Find me a woman that can beat Michael Phelps in swimming.

All records are held by men generally.

Then we operate with a different set of tools to start with.

 

[Sandman33]

Find me a woman that can beat Michael Phelps in swimming.

All records are held by men generally.

Then we operate with a different set of tools to start with.

Men completely dominate the field of Chef.....

Did you know that men and women have different CHESS leagues?

 

[jsu718]

As much as everything has been inflated it's kind of hard to get a perspective on this comment.

It's really not that bad... outside of house and car I live on less than $400 a month, including all other bills.

 

[anaconda]

The time off for child rearing is the seems the most plausible economic argument.

 

[anaconda]

Men completely dominate the field of Chef.....

Most of the celebrity chefs in the San Francisco bay area are women: Alice Waters (Chez Panisse), Judy Rodgers (Zuni Cafe), Traci Des Jardins (Jardiniere), Nancy Oakes (Boulevard).