Why is the religion that you practice superior to all other religions?

[Muwahid]

I don't believe the universe is expanding. This research is based off of one observation from our perspective. Our vantage point only takes into consideration about 0% of the universe. I don't think its wise to jump to conclusions of one observation that can view 0% of the universe.

Just out of curiosity are there any published works which corroborate your point of view? It's hard to get an idea of what you believe when it's typically against mainstream science taught in schools.

 

[tttppp]

Just out of curiosity are there any published works which corroborate your point of view? It's hard to get an idea of what you believe when it's typically against mainstream science taught in schools.

I tried looking for similar ideas on the internet, but couldn't find any. If you find something you think is similar, let me know.

By the way, I took astronomy in high school and it covered all the generally accepted knowledge about the universe. I did ace the classes. So I have a pretty good understanding of what is generally accepted. After thinking it through, I just realized its total bs.

One movie you may want to consider is "I Heart Huckabees." This movie is pretty accurate on this stuff, and its pretty entertaining too. Its got a lot of good actors in it too.

 

[TER]

...

 

[Muwahid]

I tried looking for similar ideas on the internet, but couldn't find any. If you find something you think is similar, let me know.

By the way, I took astronomy in high school and it covered all the generally accepted knowledge about the universe. I did ace the classes. So I have a pretty good understanding of what is generally accepted. After thinking it through, I just realized its total bs.

One movie you may want to consider is "I Heart Huckabees." This movie is pretty accurate on this stuff, and its pretty entertaining too. Its got a lot of good actors in it too.

Here's a talk by Lawrence Krauss: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

He argues the case of infinity, got into some pretty foreign concepts to me but I think he does reinforce the big bang theory.. the thing is the universe wouldn't be limited to just what we see now for all we know this is just a stage in an infinite amount of stages so I don't think the big bang conflicts with you, as you stated yourself the big bang doesn't (and I never took it to) abrogate the idea of an infinite universe and corroborate theological concepts like the "creation" of the universe. I just think it would be impossible for scientists to explore anything prior to the big bang because the fabric of space and time as we know it, started at that point leaving atheists with a problem explaining anything before hand.

In any case he offers an interesting explanation, I just hate their rhetoric about God, anything to do with dawkins is so militant atheist it makes the stomach churn mostly because they don't understand the theology they so hotly debate - like I said for me, prove anything you want with science and I'll agree with it no problem. My only point beyond that is God created our science and reality. So you could say if the universe is infinite there is no God where I say science can't disprove what is beyond science philosophically, to someone who understands "God", he can't be disproven (as annoying as that may be for Atheists) but we never took a position that God is provable with science, so for people to argue science nullifies god's existence is absurd.

But when religion talks of science and gets it wrong, yes then we must take these things into account, the earths not flat nor is it 4,000 years old or whatever some people think.

 

[Beorn]

My apologies, I got tangled between what Sevin wrote and what Beorn wrote:
Sevin is one of you people, Beorn is possibly a Sophist like myself.


Deists and Positive Atheists essentially say the same thing...that absolute knowledge exists. That isn't my thing...at least, I can't prove it, as absolute knowledge lies outside of logic.

Sorry, I'm much closer to AB's position.

I was just trying to turn circular reasoning arguments back on positive atheists.

I believe absolute truth exists and I think some of it is self-evident to all people. I think many people know the truth, but ignore it or fight that knowledge by filling their mind with lies intermingled with truth. I can't prove what should be self-evident to those people. However, I can expose the lies they tell themselves by showing inconsistency in thinking.

 

[robert68]

...

Lets put the God issue to rest. Lets take Christianity for example. Everyone follows the bible. Well I can tell you for a fact that the bible is not God's word. No true God would write a complex book that nobody can get a complete understanding of. A real God would get everything down on one page, and make it so simple that everyone would understand it. I'm not saying I'm God, but I can write a rule book a lot simpler than the bible. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the bible doesn't come from God. The bible, like all religious books, can be interpreted almost any way you want. This is not something God would want.

Even one page can be twisted, altered, mistranslated, and/or falsified by humans. Can’t God (or doesn’t he) just communicate directly to humans, in the form of their conscience or intuition?

 

[libertyjam]

Just out of curiosity are there any published works which corroborate your point of view? It's hard to get an idea of what you believe when it's typically against mainstream science taught in schools.

Since you asked, see the following links; these are just a quick search list and I have not read all of these particular sites, but in physical astronomy and physics it is the Steady State Theory (SST) opposed to the Big Bang Theory. There is plenty of published literature for both arguments and evidence seemingly for both, with much that can go either way depending on interpretation.

http://www.cosmology.info/
http://www.cosmology.info/2005conference/wps/burbidge.pdf
www.cosmology.info/2005conference/program.pdf
http://www.aip.org/history/cosmology/ideas/bigbang.htm
http://www.steady-state-universe.net/
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/stdystat.htm
http://www.wellbalanceduniverse.com/articles/forgotten_cosmological_theory.htm
http://www.wellbalanceduniverse.com/articles/crisisincosmology.htm

 

[tttppp]

Here's a talk by Lawrence Krauss: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

He argues the case of infinity, got into some pretty foreign concepts to me but I think he does reinforce the big bang theory.. the thing is the universe wouldn't be limited to just what we see now for all we know this is just a stage in an infinite amount of stages so I don't think the big bang conflicts with you, as you stated yourself the big bang doesn't (and I never took it to) abrogate the idea of an infinite universe and corroborate theological concepts like the "creation" of the universe. I just think it would be impossible for scientists to explore anything prior to the big bang because the fabric of space and time as we know it, started at that point leaving atheists with a problem explaining anything before hand.

In any case he offers an interesting explanation, I just hate their rhetoric about God, anything to do with dawkins is so militant atheist it makes the stomach churn mostly because they don't understand the theology they so hotly debate - like I said for me, prove anything you want with science and I'll agree with it no problem. My only point beyond that is God created our science and reality. So you could say if the universe is infinite there is no God where I say science can't disprove what is beyond science philosophically, to someone who understands "God", he can't be disproven (as annoying as that may be for Atheists) but we never took a position that God is provable with science, so for people to argue science nullifies god's existence is absurd.

But when religion talks of science and gets it wrong, yes then we must take these things into account, the earths not flat nor is it 4,000 years old or whatever some people think.

I skimmed through the video and summary of the video. Apparently they are arguing that the universe had a beginning and end. This is opposed to my view that the universe is infinite and there is no beginning or end.

I disagree with you that God cannot be proven or disproven. If the universe is infinite, there is no beginning or end. If the is no beginning, there is no creator. There could be a God who created us. Thats possible. But it is not possible that a God created everything.

My theory is that zero=infinity is the only true law of the universe. Thats why the universe has always existed and always will. You can pretty much prove this conceptually, but to obtain physical scientific proof may be impossible.

 

[tttppp]

Even one page can be twisted, altered, mistranslated, and/or falsified by humans. Can’t God (or doesn’t he) just communicate directly to humans, in the form of their conscience or intuition?

Thats certainly possible as well. But if he did give us something on paper, it would be very clear and to the point. It would be better than any human could. But if you look at the bible, it is very easy for many humans to write a better guide for humans than the bible. The bible reminds me a lot of the laws our government makes, or the endless documents corporations make for their employees. My guess is the same people write all three of these things, the bible, laws, corporate documents.

 

[libertyjam]

Muhawid and tttppp

Here is another paper for you, if you are inclined for the technical stuff:

http://casswww.ucsd.edu/archive/personal/burbidge/pubs/985623.pdf

 

[otherone]

Sorry, I'm much closer to AB's position.

I was just trying to turn circular reasoning arguments back on positive atheists.

My apologies for misrepresenting your argument! And I agree, Logic is as circular as faith. I guess I was too zealous in believing someone else thought as I did...Nihilism is a lonely path.


(I crack myself up )

 

[UK4Paul]

Hi tttppp

Lets put the God issue to rest. Lets take Christianity for example. Everyone follows the bible. Well I can tell you for a fact that the bible is not God's word. No true God would write a complex book that nobody can get a complete understanding of. A real God would get everything down on one page, and make it so simple that everyone would understand it. I'm not saying I'm God, but I can write a rule book a lot simpler than the bible. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the bible doesn't come from God. The bible, like all religious books, can be interpreted almost any way you want. This is not something God would want.

First of all, you are presuming what God would do here. So you reject the Bible because it doesn't fit in with your presupposed idea of what God should have done?

(Besides, I disagree that one page would be enough... but if you really want to get the essence of it, the 10 Commandments would be your best bet, probably along with the commandment, also part of the Law covenant, to love one's neighbour as oneself.)

Second, bear in mind that most of "the Bible" wasn't particularly written for us anyway, but for a small number of tribes living in the Middle East, called Hebrews (and later known as Jews).

It was a collection of writings that they considered sacred... which contained their "constitution" (the Law covenant), a detailed history of their ancestry, and the writings of their prophets. Why would they want to narrow this down to one page?

The same is true of the origin of Christianity, although on a much smaller scale.

"The Bible" is not a rule book. It is a collection of writings that initially the Jews, and later the Christians, considered to be sacred or valuable enough to be worth preserving.

One thing I am almost certain of... if it were merely one page long, there would be almost NO Christians and probably NO Jews today.

Why would there be?

Yes, you can get a set of RULES into one page... but why would anyone follow it?

I admit, it makes for a great thought experiment... but I really doubt a one page document would have anywhere near the same impact on the world.

And let's face it, regardless of your assumption about what God SHOULD do... the Bible has had a MAJOR impact on the world.

So I will side with God on this one and suggest His idea was slightly better than yours... sorry

 

[UK4Paul]

Even one page can be twisted, altered, mistranslated, and/or falsified by humans. Can’t God (or doesn’t he) just communicate directly to humans, in the form of their conscience or intuition?

He does.

But I don't think He does it "forcefully" (for the most part), because He respects your freedom of choice.

He would rather people come to Him and love him freely, rather than be bludgeoned and forced into it.

Sadly, much of the Church throughout history has preferred the "bludgeoning" approach, especially on "heretics" who dared to believe a slightly different version of the Deity, or on Jews and pagans who refused... how dare they!... to be forcefully baptized.

And we wonder why not everyone has accepted Christianity...

 

[WilliamC]

I think it's a little different. One requires faith, the other requires logic. Now if you think logic itself requires faith, then there's nothing more to discuss.

No. They both require faith. Your epistemology of empiricism is based 100% on blind faith. I've shown this many times on this forum with different people.

1faith noun \ˈfāth\ plural faiths Definition of FAITH

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person
: loyalty
b (1) : fidelity to one's promises
(2) : sincerity of intentions

2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof
(2) : complete trust

3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith> — on faith
: without question <took everything he said on faith>

1 a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning
(2) : a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic>
(3) : a branch of semiotics; especially : syntactics
(4) : the formal principles of a branch of knowledge
b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty
(2) : relevance, propriety
c : interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable
d : the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits themselves
2 : something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason <the logic of war>

Only by using non-standard definitions of words however.

Most dictionaries use faith and logic as antonyms, you simply define them as being equivalent.

 

[Beorn]

My apologies for misrepresenting your argument! And I agree, Logic is as circular as faith. I guess I was too zealous in believing someone else thought as I did...Nihilism is a lonely path.


(I crack myself up )

Yes, well if you go to a ghetto you'll find plenty of people living out nihilism even if they aren't aware of the very term.

 

[otherone]

Yes, well if you go to a ghetto you'll find plenty of people living out nihilism even if they aren't aware of the very term.

Been there, done that, but Nihilism isn't self-destruction.

 

[tttppp]

Hi tttppp



First of all, you are presuming what God would do here. So you reject the Bible because it doesn't fit in with your presupposed idea of what God should have done?

(Besides, I disagree that one page would be enough... but if you really want to get the essence of it, the 10 Commandments would be your best bet, probably along with the commandment, also part of the Law covenant, to love one's neighbour as oneself.)

Second, bear in mind that most of "the Bible" wasn't particularly written for us anyway, but for a small number of tribes living in the Middle East, called Hebrews (and later known as Jews).

It was a collection of writings that they considered sacred... which contained their "constitution" (the Law covenant), a detailed history of their ancestry, and the writings of their prophets. Why would they want to narrow this down to one page?

The same is true of the origin of Christianity, although on a much smaller scale.

"The Bible" is not a rule book. It is a collection of writings that initially the Jews, and later the Christians, considered to be sacred or valuable enough to be worth preserving.

One thing I am almost certain of... if it were merely one page long, there would be almost NO Christians and probably NO Jews today.

Why would there be?

Yes, you can get a set of RULES into one page... but why would anyone follow it?

I admit, it makes for a great thought experiment... but I really doubt a one page document would have anywhere near the same impact on the world.

And let's face it, regardless of your assumption about what God SHOULD do... the Bible has had a MAJOR impact on the world.

So I will side with God on this one and suggest His idea was slightly better than yours... sorry

What positive impact has the bible ever had on the world?

Put it this way. What is more important to this country, the constitution which is relatively short and simple, or all the bullshit overlapping rules and regulations that this country has added after that? Its possible to create a simple, easy to read document, that everyone can understand and live by. I guess God wasn't smart enough to figure that out.

 

[Captain Caveman]

This means though you do not agree with AB. He is saying God hardened you and softened you. You had no choice in it. The very fact that you believe it was your choice to listen to God or not means you disagree with AB.

That said, I'm glad you found faith.

Thank you for the reply.

For me, I see that in some regards both sides of the "God did it, or you did it" (freewill or lack thereof) debate have merit. God responded to my actions, in response to my actions towards Him. It becomes a chicken or the egg idea at some point, but I do feel that yes (!), God does the saving.. and we do need to respond to Him for Him to do it. We have choice, God alone has the ability.

I mean think about it... "sin" (the fallen nature, that produces bad actions/thoughts/problems) is what separates us from God. God has made a way for our nature (our "inner man") to be super-naturally changed so that the fallen nature does not compel us any longer. Being free from this burden, we are free to be good children to a loving Father.

Only God has the ability to make it happen, we only need respond and lay down our self-life for Him.

Because of the things I've experienced, I also strongly disagree with folks who teach "you must do this or that, wear the right clothes or whatever" to be saved. God does the changing, we just willingly go along IMHO. This is the crux of "religion" when people say you must do things this-way-or-that... it's just rules following... whereas really having some interaction with God, and HE changes your nature, is wholly different.

Should anyone desire a living breathing interacting <i>relationship</i> with the Most High God, PM me... I'm not the answer, but I know things about getting there.

 

[UK4Paul]

Hi tttppp

What positive impact has the bible ever had on the world?

Are you kidding me? It has been a source of hope and inspiration for many. I think the framers of the constitution were also positively influenced by it. And whether you think it is a "positive" development or not, hundreds of millions of people believe in the God revealed in the Bible, and live their lives accordingly. And that is to say nothing of the rich cultural impact.

Now, I notice you added the word "positive", as if only positive impacts are valid. Plus, you mean "positive" from YOUR point of view. The fact that there are hundreds of millions of Christians might not be positive in your eyes, but might be positive in God's

Put it this way. What is more important to this country, the constitution which is relatively short and simple, or all the bullshit overlapping rules and regulations that this country has added after that? Its possible to create a simple, easy to read document, that everyone can understand and live by. I guess God wasn't smart enough to figure that out.

I get your point. But again, it goes back to God's intention, not your expectations.

The Bible is NOT a set of rules.

If you wanted to learn about American history, do you just read the Constitution?

Well, the Constitution would be part of that history... but it wouldn't explain how the U.S. got started, or the story of King George or the Tea Party, or the Revolution... would it?

You would need to read more than just the Constitution to get that history.

That's what the Bible is.

It contains Israel's CONSTITUTION... and also their HISTORY, along with some writings from their PROPHETS, POETS and KINGS.

As for God not being smart enough to figure it out: I'm willing to bet that you, despite your skeptical viewpoint, know the basic story of the Bible, and its key message:

God creates world... Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden... Adam and Eve sin and are thrown out of the garden of Eden... God creates a nation for himself called Israel... brings a Messiah through that nation, called Jesus Christ... invites people back to the tree of life, through Christ.

OK... that's the gist, and I bet you already knew most or all of that.

How did you know? Because God apparently wasn't smart enough... yet you somehow KNOW the "one page" story!

The bottom line is...

Everyone (or rather, a huge number of people) know the BASIC story of the Bible.

And the details... the sheer size of it... simply contributes to the richness and the intrigue of the story.

Look at Revelation... the book has captivated Christians for hundreds of years (even though I think the bulk of it was fulfilled in or before 70AD)!

So what if people interpret it different ways? It's got people TALKING... and that's what God wants (or at least, I suspect that's what He wants).

Of all the books in the Bible, Revelation is the most complex... but ONLY because it draws upon so much symbology from the rest of the Bible.

It is like the University of the Bible. Nobody goes to university without first going to school.

It is God's way of saying, "If you want to know the deeper stuff, learn the basics first."

But it's not essential. It is there for the people who would get BORED of studying the same "one page" document It's there for the people who WANT to know more. In your "one page" scenario, where would people go if they wanted to know more?

God? OK... and how would he communicate the "more"? Yes, he could reveal the entire scope of Israel's history, his prophecies, the gospels etc... to each person individually... or he could... oooh, say, have it written down...

So you already know what that "one page" says... yet you do not believe... so the extra 999 pages or so, really don't matter to you.

Yet I think God knows what he's doing, because they DO matter to hundreds of millions of people.

And the fact that we are even discussing "The Bible" here today, is perhaps proof that God DOES know what he's doing after all.

But do you really believe that if it were a one page document, you'd be a worshiper of God right now? Hmmm...

I guess it's one of those reeeeallly convenient hypothetical questions you can happily answer "Yes" to because you know it's hypothetical... and if you say "No", well then... there ya go.

 

[tttppp]

Hi tttppp



Are you kidding me? It has been a source of hope and inspiration for many. I think the framers of the constitution were also positively influenced by it. And whether you think it is a "positive" development or not, hundreds of millions of people believe in the God revealed in the Bible, and live their lives accordingly. And that is to say nothing of the rich cultural impact.

Now, I notice you added the word "positive", as if only positive impacts are valid. Plus, you mean "positive" from YOUR point of view. The fact that there are hundreds of millions of Christians might not be positive in your eyes, but might be positive in God's



I get your point. But again, it goes back to God's intention, not your expectations.

The Bible is NOT a set of rules.

If you wanted to learn about American history, do you just read the Constitution?

Well, the Constitution would be part of that history... but it wouldn't explain how the U.S. got started, or the story of King George or the Tea Party, or the Revolution... would it?

You would need to read more than just the Constitution to get that history.

That's what the Bible is.

It contains Israel's CONSTITUTION... and also their HISTORY, along with some writings from their PROPHETS, POETS and KINGS.

As for God not being smart enough to figure it out: I'm willing to bet that you, despite your skeptical viewpoint, know the basic story of the Bible, and its key message:

God creates world... Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden... Adam and Eve sin and are thrown out of the garden of Eden... God creates a nation for himself called Israel... brings a Messiah through that nation, called Jesus Christ... invites people back to the tree of life, through Christ.

OK... that's the gist, and I bet you already knew most or all of that.

How did you know? Because God apparently wasn't smart enough... yet you somehow KNOW the "one page" story!

The bottom line is...

Everyone (or rather, a huge number of people) know the BASIC story of the Bible.

And the details... the sheer size of it... simply contributes to the richness and the intrigue of the story.

Look at Revelation... the book has captivated Christians for hundreds of years (even though I think the bulk of it was fulfilled in or before 70AD)!

So what if people interpret it different ways? It's got people TALKING... and that's what God wants (or at least, I suspect that's what He wants).

Of all the books in the Bible, Revelation is the most complex... but ONLY because it draws upon so much symbology from the rest of the Bible.

It is like the University of the Bible. Nobody goes to university without first going to school.

It is God's way of saying, "If you want to know the deeper stuff, learn the basics first."

But it's not essential. It is there for the people who would get BORED of studying the same "one page" document It's there for the people who WANT to know more. In your "one page" scenario, where would people go if they wanted to know more?

God? OK... and how would he communicate the "more"? Yes, he could reveal the entire scope of Israel's history, his prophecies, the gospels etc... to each person individually... or he could... oooh, say, have it written down...

So you already know what that "one page" says... yet you do not believe... so the extra 999 pages or so, really don't matter to you.

Yet I think God knows what he's doing, because they DO matter to hundreds of millions of people.

And the fact that we are even discussing "The Bible" here today, is perhaps proof that God DOES know what he's doing after all.

But do you really believe that if it were a one page document, you'd be a worshiper of God right now? Hmmm...

I guess it's one of those reeeeallly convenient hypothetical questions you can happily answer "Yes" to because you know it's hypothetical... and if you say "No", well then... there ya go.

Most people who follow the bible live by a different set of rules because they have different interpretations of the bible. Also, I've met plenty of people who put on this show of how deeply religious they are and know everything about the bible, but they end up being the biggest scumbags you'll ever meet...just like Santorum.

There have been plenty of wars in the name of religion. I don't think this is positive.

If we had a clear and concise guideline to live by, people would just live their lives and wouldn't have to worry about studying the bible and figuring it out. Christians, Jews, and Muslims basically follow the same religion, but have been fighting since the beginning of time because of some bs differences in their complex documents. If they all had a simple document that everyone could live by, there wouldn't be this fighting over religion.