Why is access to an attorney a "god-given right", while access to health care isn't?

You obviously have no understanding of the history of criminal courts in Western civilization and its abuses over the years. Take a trip to your local courtroom and watch how misdemeanor cases are handled when the poor cannot afford an attorney and ask yourself if justice is being served.

I'm not sure how that counts as a response to what I said. Are you implying that misdemeanor cases don't have taxpayer funded judges, etc.?

And really, I admit, I'm not very interested in the history of how a bunch of people made up this or that rule in their living document. I'm interested in basic matters of natural law. So before you post your Missouri Bar cut and paste again, understand that I won't read it the third time just like I didn't read it the first two.
 
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This is a good question and something that I've never thought of before. Before going any further I think it's important to make the distinction that access to an attorney isn't always a right. The only time you can get free legal counsel is when you are defending yourself against criminal charges by a government. You can't get a lawyer any time other than that, as far as I know.

The easy answer to the original question is that because the constitution doesn't say anything about health care. But I think you're on the right track there - the right to counsel is there in an attempt to keep people from being unfairly prosecuted by the government.
 
I'm not sure how that counts as a response to what I said. Are you implying that misdemeanor cases don't have taxpayer funded judges, etc.?

And really, I admit, I'm not very interested in the history of how a bunch of people made up this or that rule in their living document. I'm interested in basic matters of natural law. So before you post your Missouri Bar cut and paste again, understand that I won't read it the third time just like I didn't read it the first two.

For most states, when a misdemeanor will not result in jail time, the poor will not have access to a court appointed attorney. It is there where you can still see the unfair advantage the state has when the defendant has no council. The Supreme Court, recognizing this over the years, has made decisions over the years on the Constitutional right to council, which is outlined in my post from the Missouri Bar Association website.

The U.S. Constitution rests on a common law foundation and the common law, in turn, rests on a classical natural law foundation, because early American lawyers and judges perceived natural law as too tenuous, amorphous and evanescent a legal basis for grounding concrete rights and governmental limitations.

I wish more people would take an interest in English common law and the US Constitution, the freedoms that we are losing today come from the hard fought legal rights dating from the Magna Carta to the early 20th century. Thomas Jefferson once remarked that America can remain a free and prosperous nation only if its citizens are well educated. Today, I bet you that 90% of the American citizens have never read the US Constitution and of the 10% who have, only a small fraction have bothered to look into why the Founding Fathers included some sections and omitted others in that document.

We lost America when we decided it was a neat idea to give every two-legged biped with a few brain cells the right to vote, we are just beginning to see today what a disaster that has become. America is unlikely to see the 250th anniversary of the US Constitution. Did you know that in northern Scandinavia, the representative body known as the "All thing" lasted for over 1,000 years? The key factor to its stability was that the right to vote was limited to married men who had at least one ancestor buried within the land. Single men and women were not given the right to vote.
 
You have a right to defend yourself from your accusers. Because of the complex nature of the law services of learned people in law are required
 
You have a right to defend yourself from your accusers. Because of the complex nature of the law services of learned people in law are required
Yeah , most people would have been able to defend themselves 100 years ago when the US Code was in one book , now that the Code fills an entire room , it has changed things ....
 
My friend asked me this question...

"I've been struggling with this issue. Maybe you can help me out.

When Ron Paul spoke about health care, he said it was an entitlement but not a right, and that the only right we have is the right to life and liberty. However, the Bill of Rights says we have the right to an attorney ("the Assistance of Counsel," 6th Amendment). The state pays for these attorneys.

Why is access to an attorney a "god-given right" that the government pays for, while access to health care isn't?"

This is something I couldn't figure out for myself. Any thoughts on this?
. IMO it isn't. Not exactly in a way. You should have a right to defend yourself in trial. I think a legal system should be simple enough that anyone can defend themselves without a lawyer. However if we are going to have a super complex system where u can not really defend yourself then it is only fair that the government provide u with a lawyer. If that makes sense. Otherwise u wouldn't have a fair way to defend yourself and it's the right to defend yourself that is the right. Not the lawyer.
 
I agree with this. That being said, offering free counsel to those who cannot normally access or afford it is the right thing to do. Just like treating someone in a serious medical emergency regardless of their ability to pay is the right thing to do. I just think that ideally this should be done through the private sector/ charitable avenues. Many state bar associations still strongly encourage or require their attorneys to do Pro Bono up to 10% of their time. This actually benefits the client more, because even an attorney working for free has more motivation to win than one working for the state.

By logical extension, isn't it cheaper to prevent diseases and emergencies than to pay for emergency treatment? (or, if it is, wouldn't that be a justified expense under this reasoning?)
 
. IMO it isn't. Not exactly in a way. You should have a right to defend yourself in trial. I think a legal system should be simple enough that anyone can defend themselves without a lawyer. However if we are going to have a super complex system where u can not really defend yourself then it is only fair that the government provide u with a lawyer. If that makes sense. Otherwise u wouldn't have a fair way to defend yourself and it's the right to defend yourself that is the right. Not the lawyer.

Everybody is allowed to defend themselves without a lawyer, you are free to ask for the procedure and your rights. But you are at risk if somebody hired a smart attorney who is better at convicing the jury than you are. Remember, you're ultimately convicing the judge and jury.
 
Since the need to hire an attorney would be because an individual has the possibility of losing his life or liberty. I would imagine an attorney is part of the process by which we are able to defend ourselves and protect our life and liberty.
 
that's a terrible argument.

No matter WHY, you are never ever entitled to the work of someone else.


What if you were born with a chronic disease that required intensive, costly care? should you then be granted free healthcare?


Because you have a health issue does not mean that you are entitled to someone elses work.

I believe the only exception is that of a lawyer. If the bill of rights is going to give you the right to a trial, right to due process, miranda rights etc.. Perhaps they struggled over it when they wrote it, but all of these other rights(in regards to justice) are useless without a proper defense.

I'd love to hear Dr. Paul's take on this. The constitution doesn't guarantee good health, so it can't promise you a doctor. It does guarantee freedom and therefore must provide a right to a defense.
 
If you accept the notion of tax-funded government courts, you already accept that taxpayers are feeding the judge and prosecutor. The defendants are already "enjoying the free services" of the former two (along with the prosecutor's entire team), so it's really no further overstep to say, "...and since the trial we are coercively DRAGGING you to and threatening your liberty/life with must be a fair trial, we will also pay for an attorney if you can't afford one yourself." The Framers probably didn't intend for this to be interpreted in a way that provides state-funded public defenders, but the interpretation sounds oddly fair to me anyway and still [at least presumably] intended to restrain the government. In practice, I side with newbitech regarding the efficacy of public defenders, but that's another issue.

Ultimately, anyone who agrees with government courts should have no problem with this...and voluntaryists/an-caps should simply consider it one part of a larger unjust system, rather than a particular overstep that should be eliminated piecemeal.
 
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Other way around now.. Access to health care is now mandatory, pay your monthly premiums or pay fines, or go to jail.

Attorney access is no longer a legal right, and health care is now a mandatory right; as Obama and our mafia Congress (huge majority) now have in law that any member of the military can detain you indefinitely, without search warrant, without probable cause, with no access to legal council, just because... So in my view attorney access is no longer a legal right, unless you are a magot working in the White House or the corrupt Congress...

Watch me get black bagged tomorrow... find me somewhere, if you don't see me post again.
 
This is a good question and something that I've never thought of before. Before going any further I think it's important to make the distinction that access to an attorney isn't always a right. The only time you can get free legal counsel is when you are defending yourself against criminal charges by a government. You can't get a lawyer any time other than that, as far as I know.

I remember when my cousin had a DWI years back...he was unemployed and the judge refused to give him a court appointed lawyer...after 2 weeks of not finding work, the judge made him go to court every single day until he found a job...3 weeks later, after selling several of his personal belongings he got a lawyer... he thought she was a bitch, but looking back, we thought she may have done that because she knew he could win the case with a real lawyer..dunno... but it was odd, cuz we had always heard if you can't afford a lawyer, one will be appointed for you...
 
My friend asked me this question...

"I've been struggling with this issue. Maybe you can help me out.

When Ron Paul spoke about health care, he said it was an entitlement but not a right, and that the only right we have is the right to life and liberty. However, the Bill of Rights says we have the right to an attorney ("the Assistance of Counsel," 6th Amendment). The state pays for these attorneys.

Why is access to an attorney a "god-given right" that the government pays for, while access to health care isn't?"

This is something I couldn't figure out for myself. Any thoughts on this?

Access to health care is a right. That is not the same as a right to be provided with it. If you can afford it, you have every right to obtain it. If you cannot, then you have problems... unless you live in some socialist shit hole where it is deemed morally virtuous to steal the fruits of other mens' labor for the sake of providing "free" healthcare to those who cannot afford it. That would include the USA, and all the shame upon us for having allowed this. We should have run the hippies. progressives, and other vermin out on rails when they moved their offerings beyond their vapid words and into action that met with success I would bet had even their heads spinning with disbelief.

Access to an attorney is a very different matter because one is not allowed to opt out of the legal system (or are they... think "Ungrip"). But if we assume we are in fact required to participate per government mandate, then that government should be required to provide counsel because going into the system without representation is generally a very bad idea. I believe that this fact alone sufficiently reveals the generally illegitimate nature of government - robbing peaceable citizens of their monies in part to provide counsel to those accused of crimes. Yeah, that makes sense. Were the courts far closer to legitimate in how they operated people would be able to appear pro se and readily defend themselves without fear of being caught in the quagmire of traps that await those not initiated into the practice of law.
 
Do you understand what the term "adversarial system" even means? Sure sometimes prosecutors can be lenient, but often they go for the jugular. It's their job. They're supposed to be ethical about it, and most are, but still they're job is to push the defense as hard as they can and the job of the defense team is to push back. Theoretically the system tends toward justice although that doesn't always happen.

No, I do not. You went from saying "the state admits...." to now saying that prosecutors have a habit or culture of doing this, can you support your claim "the state admits to trying to ruining your life via prosecution"? Or did I misunderstand you?

Are you suggesting there should not be prosecutors? Or what?
 
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The way I see it, we have a right to legal counsel because the absence of legal counsel could result in the government taking our life or liberty if we are denied a proper defense, whether we are innocent or not. We are specifically protected from the loss of life, liberty, or happiness at the hands of our government without due process of law.

Healthcare on the other hand has more to do with the free market. Without healthcare, we may die or get sick, but the government would not be causing our misfortunes. Nor is the government authorized to impoverish me to pay someone's medical bills. I am a charitable person, up to the point where it is charity against my will. It sounds callous on the surface, but what many don't understand is that when operating in a free market, healthcare is not expensive like it is today. The fact that everyone is basically required to have insurance anymore drives costs up. Government intervention drives costs up when we cannot go across state lines to get cheaper or more efficient healthcare. Healthcare is not a cheap commodity on it's own by any means, but it is multitudes more expensive here because of these artificial barriers we put in place. With the absence of these barriers, charities, churches, and charitable people's money would go a lot further in taking care of the few people who would not be able to take care of themselves in a free market situation.

A lot of people are quick to shoot down Ron Paul's stance on how charities and churches could help people, but that's because they dwell on how expensive things are in our big-government society, without understanding how much cheaper things would be without the big government (partly because there would be more competition, but also because of not being overtaxed). It's not hard to see their viewpoint...this isn't something many people have seen in their lifetimes...still, they need to do the research and wake up. It is their responsibility as citizens.
 
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Um, an attorney isn't a God-given right. You have a right to representation if the government accuses you of something and locks you up. You don't get free attorneys as a Constitutional right if you want to sue your neighbor for running over your new car.
 
the U.S. constitution hints at fairness in Courts, it doesn't really hint at all about healthcare
 
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