Why do the Paranoid in this movement want to march backwards?

The government has protected individual rights many times. Everytime the government captures a thief and returns the stolen goods to the rightful owner, they have protected someone's individual rights.

The point you're making is that any tax is a violation of rights, so any action by the government that uses that tax money is also a violation. If you want your rights to be protected, it has to be paid for. It cannot and will not be done for free. Perhaps you advocate a society where no one is protected, and everyone is responsible for their own protection. Any that case, any talk of rights is pretty useless, because no one will be protected from anything unless they themselves can protect against it.



Okay. And it will be necessary to cede some autonomy to such an entity. Without a state, we just get taken over by other states.

Can you mischaracterize anymore? I advocate for private police. Where payment is voluntary. Why can't the police, fire, and other services be bundled in insurance plans? Why do I have to pay for yours or others services? Why does it have to be compulsory? How come I cannot provide for my own safety and protection?

I don't expect anything done for free (Except Charity), nor do I want it to be. I advocate a voluntary free-market society. You do know Capitalism is voluntary exchange?

As for getting taken over by other States? Who? Canada or Mexico? We have two large oceans between us and just about everyone else. Secondly, how come Hitler didn't invade Switzerland? You do realize a country of nearly 400 + million without laws and restrictions about types of firearms being allowed to be owned would constitute the largest military force on the planet. No one would dare invade 400 + million militia. I know I'd have at least a M60, Grenades, Claymores, and other weaponry to keep me safe.

I think you are confused about the difference between a State and a Government. Let me clarify.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard133.html

In attempting to outline how a "society without a state" – that is, an anarchist society – might function successfully, I would first like to defuse two common but mistaken criticisms of this approach. First, is the argument that in providing for such defense or protection services as courts, police, or even law itself, I am simply smuggling the state back into society in another form, and that therefore the system I am both analyzing and advocating is not "really" anarchism.

This sort of criticism can only involve us in an endless and arid dispute over semantics. Let me say from the beginning that I define the state as that institution which possesses one or both (almost always both) of the following properties: (1) it acquires its income by the physical coercion known as "taxation"; and (2) it asserts and usually obtains a coerced monopoly of the provision of defense service (police and courts) over a given territorial area. An institution not possessing either of these properties is not and cannot be, in accordance with my definition, a state.

On the other hand, I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of an individual. Anarchists oppose the state because it has its very being in such aggression, namely, the expropriation of private property through taxation, the coercive exclusion of other providers of defense service from its territory, and all of the other depredations and coercions that are built upon these twin foci of invasions of individual rights.

Nor is our definition of the state arbitrary, for these two characteristics have been possessed by what is generally acknowledged to be states throughout recorded history. The state, by its use of physical coercion, has arrogated to itself a compulsory monopoly of defense services over its territorial jurisdiction. But it is certainly conceptually possible for such services to be supplied by private, non-state institutions, and indeed such services have historically been supplied by other organizations than the state. To be opposed to the state is then not necessarily to be opposed to services that have often been linked with it; to be opposed to the state does not necessarily imply that we must be opposed to police protection, courts, arbitration, the minting of money, postal service, or roads and highways. Some anarchists have indeed been opposed to police and to all physical coercion in defense of person and property, but this is not inherent in and is fundamentally irrelevant to the anarchist position, which is precisely marked by opposition to all physical coercion invasive of, or aggressing against, person and property.

The crucial role of taxation may be seen in the fact that the state is the only institution or organization in society which regularly and systematically acquires its income through the use of physical coercion. All other individuals or organizations acquire their income voluntarily, either (1) through the voluntary sale of goods and services to consumers on the market, or (2) through voluntary gifts or donations by members or other donors. If I cease or refrain from purchasing Wheaties on the market, the Wheaties producers do not come after me with a gun or the threat of imprisonment to force me to purchase; if I fail to join the American Philosophical Association, the association may not force me to join or prevent me from giving up my membership. Only the state can do so; only the state can confiscate my property or put me in jail if I do not pay its tax tribute. Therefore, only the state regularly exists and has its very being by means of coercive depredations on private property.

Neither is it legitimate to challenge this sort of analysis by claiming that in some other sense, the purchase of Wheaties or membership in the APA is in some way "coercive." Anyone who is still unhappy with this use of the term "coercion" can simply eliminate the word from this discussion and substitute for it "physical violence or the threat thereof," with the only loss being in literary style rather than in the substance of the argument. What anarchism proposes to do, then, is to abolish the state, that is, to abolish the regularized institution of aggressive coercion.

It need hardly be added that the state habitually builds upon its coercive source of income by adding a host of other aggressions upon society, ranging from economic controls to the prohibition of pornography to the compelling of religious observance to the mass murder of civilians in organized warfare. In short, the state, in the worlds of Albert Jay Nock, "claims and exercises a monopoly of crime" over its territorial area.

The second criticism I would like to defuse before beginning the main body of the paper is the common charge that anarchists "assume that all people are good" and that without the state no crime would be committed. In short, that anarchism assumes that with the abolition of the state a New Anarchist Man will emerge, cooperative, humane, and benevolent, so that no problem of crime will then plague the society. I confess that I do not understand the basis for this charge. Whatever other schools of anarchism profess – and I do not believe that they are open to the charge – I certainly do not adopt this view. I assume with most observers that mankind is a mixture of good and evil, of cooperative and criminal tendencies.
In my view, the anarchist society is one which maximizes the tendencies for the good and the cooperative, while it minimizes both the opportunity and the moral legitimacy of the evil and the criminal. If the anarchist view is correct and the state is indeed the great legalized and socially legitimated channel for all manner of antisocial crime – theft, oppression, mass murder – on a massive scale, then surely the abolition of such an engine of crime can do nothing but favor the good in man and discourage the bad.

A further point: in a profound sense, no social system, whether anarchist or statist, can work at all unless most people are "good" in the sense that they are not all hell-bent upon assaulting and robbing their neighbors. If everyone were so disposed, no amount of protection, whether state or private, could succeed in staving off chaos. Furthermore, the more that people are disposed to be peaceful and not aggress against their neighbors, the more successfully any social system will work, and the fewer resources will need to be devoted to police protection. The anarchist view holds that, given the "nature of man," given the degree of goodness or badness at any point in time, anarchism will maximize the opportunities for the good and minimize the channels for the bad. The rest depends on the values held by the individual members of society. The only further point that needs to be made is that by eliminating the living example and the social legitimacy of the massive legalized crime of the state, anarchism will to a large extent promote peaceful values in the minds of the public.

I also find it kind of disconcerting that you believe it necessary to violate liberty to protect liberty.
 
you can still be principaled and achieve your goals. i think the "our way or the highway" approach is the reason this movement doesn't get anywhere... and why many people choose not to support it. it's not this movement that is waking people up - it's the direct impact on their wallets... which makes them question things and seek out information.

you can not force people into your frame of mind... they have to get there by themselves.
I get what you are saying, but there are certain fundamental principles which, in my view, are non-negotiable. You either believe in self ownership or you don't. You either believe in the non-aggression principle or you don't.
 
As for getting taken over by other States? Who? Canada or Mexico? We have two large oceans between us and just about everyone else. Secondly, how come Hitler didn't invade Switzerland? You do realize a country of nearly 400 + million without laws and restrictions about types of firearms being allowed to be owned would constitute the largest military force on the planet. No one would dare invade 400 + million militia. I know I'd have at least a M60, Grenades, Claymores, and other weaponry to keep me safe.

After our economy is in ruins, I have no doubt that China or Russia could easily stage an invasion and easily overpower any kind of militia we could muster. Perhaps private defense agencies could defend parts of the country. In the absense of a state, would all regions between Canada and Mexico but protected from invasion? Who would be responsible for paying for such a thing? What if I don't want to pay for it? Don't I still benefit from it?

I'm afraid to say that states are here to stay. I understand the ideal you're trying to work towards, and perhaps it would work if all states were somehow abolished overnight. I should expand upon what I said originally: where there is no government, government will arise, and where there is no state, a state will arise. I see no other option, unless you know of a way to abolish the state and keep another one from taking its place.
 
Because some of us are sick of "compromise".

When you do this for more than 25 years, like I have, it becomes very clear that 98.5 percent quickly becomes 80 percent that becomes 60 percent that becomes 30 percent that becomes nothing.

Feet will be held to the fire, consequences be damned.

First off, all parties are compromises. They are a collection of weird beliefs and other cults. When all is said and done, both parties mirror each other in that they are moderate. If Obama is supporting extremism, that is his choice and his political folly. Certainly he isn't that naive.
 
If you looked at Liberty-minded candidates on a scale from Communist to Libertarian (or whatever), wouldn't you support the candidates who are closer to the Libertarian extreme? Why then, do certain people lose their minds when certain Libertarian candidates reveal themselves to be 98.5% perfect rather than the 100% perfect we were really hoping for? How spoiled are we?

Yup, it's the downfall of the Libertarian movement.
They want perfect "Libertarian" candidates.
 
Q. Why do the Paranoid in this movement want to march backwards?

A. So they can always look out behind them?

Oh, that is priceless!!!

calvin_hobbes-laughing.jpg
 
If you looked at Liberty-minded candidates on a scale from Communist to Libertarian (or whatever), wouldn't you support the candidates who are closer to the Libertarian extreme? Why then, do certain people lose their minds when certain Libertarian candidates reveal themselves to be 98.5% perfect rather than the 100% perfect we were really hoping for? How spoiled are we?

Kudos Matthew. IMHO the most useful and most important post I've seen here in a long time.

Here's my take. First off there must be an absolute minimum that the entire movement agrees upon - kind of a quality bar. The premise is that anything less than "this" won't be acceptable. Now where to set the bar - that would depend largely upon the general political and social atmosphere.

But it's true that many libertarians are ideologues, and some are even staunch ideologues, and personally I despise staunch believers in just about anything, even libertarianism.

I honestly don't think the time has come for libertarianism. The time is coming, mind you, but it's not here yet. The movement hasn't reached critical mass yet. It'll take something big - financial meltdown, hyperinflation - something serious and big to turn "the people" towards libertarianism en masse.

The current state of affairs - politically, socially and especially economically - is not sustainable for much longer. We're just leaving an interesting decade and we have a far more interesting one ahead of us.


Iyad
 
We're talking about the Jesus jesus. And since he's against killing and stealing, I don't think he'd support war or taxes.

Now I understand and agree with you that we shouldn't waiver on our principals, like little taxes here and there even though they're smaller then the current status quo. But we need to be flexible and reasonable when communicating to people. And I know libertarians are for liberty, but when I hear libertarian part of me cringes. Not that I have anything against them, but I just hate labels. Even though I label myself a republican, I consider it more of an adjective then a noun.

We SHOULD just be people, Americans, doing the right thing. Libertarian, republican, socialist, anarchist, I mean, I don't care as long as the ideas are right and good. As long as the ideas are right and good, anybody can support right and good.

People have different ideas on what's right and what's bad. Unfortunately nearly everybody isn't going to get everything they want, and is going to end up with something they might disagree with, one way or the other.

One thing we can agree on, is that our country is headed in the wrong direction. We need to get the country back on track. And if it can't be 100% all the way perfect back on track, I'd rather it be 10% right on track then 90% backwards like our current democratic congress is doing.

Sometimes 10% right isn't good enough, even if it's currently 110% wrong. So those people just fight, fight, fight. Not everyone can keep trying to do as much as they can when other people are telling them they're not doing enough/are not good enough. We need to support each other and our overall goal. Otherwise, we'll just implode like we did in 2008

You're not as intelligent as you THINK you are!

Never mind actually standing for something... It's like I walked into townhall.com or hotair.com this month and not ronpaulforums... Are the chemicals in the water getting stronger or what?
 
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Kudos Matthew. IMHO the most useful and most important post I've seen here in a long time.

Here's my take. First off there must be an absolute minimum that the entire movement agrees upon - kind of a quality bar. The premise is that anything less than "this" won't be acceptable. Now where to set the bar - that would depend largely upon the general political and social atmosphere.

But it's true that many libertarians are ideologues, and some are even staunch ideologues, and personally I despise staunch believers in just about anything, even libertarianism.

I honestly don't think the time has come for libertarianism. The time is coming, mind you, but it's not here yet. The movement hasn't reached critical mass yet. It'll take something big - financial meltdown, hyperinflation - something serious and big to turn "the people" towards libertarianism en masse.

The current state of affairs - politically, socially and especially economically - is not sustainable for much longer. We're just leaving an interesting decade and we have a far more interesting one ahead of us.


Iyad

I would have to agree. I don't feel apathetic in saying that, though I am sure some would see it that way. And I think the fight is absolutely worth it, and winnable, in the abstract sense. I'm 27. Before I am 40 I know I will see some kind of major world history come about, and I hope I am part of making it a positive thing.
 
The Europeans have many movements. The United States has only one

I would have to agree. I don't feel apathetic in saying that, though I am sure some would see it that way. And I think the fight is absolutely worth it, and winnable, in the abstract sense. I'm 27. Before I am 40 I know I will see some kind of major world history come about, and I hope I am part of making it a positive thing.

There is only one true American movement with it being just a short step back towards that of revering our Founding Fathers and the self evident and unalienable Truth that they declared. All other movements are false ones. In other words, there is no political manipulation that will ever improve us. We don't need to do anything other than just hold the Truth above the cruel reality that tyranny uses to persecutes us. As this Truth becomes the Civil Purpose we constantly return to, our Civil Purpose supercedes the tormenting nature of all legal precedence created by past traditions.
 
I assume you said that in sarcasm, right? John McCain is not on the Liberty side of the spectrum IMO, so no, I did not.

He was closer than Obama. If "voting for who's closer" is your measuring stick, then 0.00002% libertarian is better than 0.00001% libertarian, no? So you should clearly vote for the person who is 0.00002% libertarian.

If you tell me you voted for Paul, or another third party type, than your argument falls in on itself, as you have just chosen to follow your principle and vote for someone who is unelectable for sake of principle alone. By your own argument, you would have been better off voting for the one of the two who had a shot which was 'closer' to libertarianism.
 
True freedom only exist in the mind. If we cannot get behind Rand, Schiff and others championing our cause, it'll forever stay there.
 
If you looked at Liberty-minded candidates on a scale from Communist to Libertarian (or whatever), wouldn't you support the candidates who are closer to the Libertarian extreme? Why then, do certain people lose their minds when certain Libertarian candidates reveal themselves to be 98.5% perfect rather than the 100% perfect we were really hoping for? How spoiled are we?

We're not spoiled at all, in fact, we never get the type of politicians who "send thrills up our legs" as Obama does to Chris Matthews.

And its that fact that is the problem here, the reason pro-freedom people are so touchy is that we've been lied to way too many times, Ive been a freedom-nut since I was in high school in the early 90s, and I have always been totally dissappointed in every successful candidate I supported, beginning with the '94 Republican takeover of Congress.

Now, as soon as I hear hem-hawing and backtracking from somebody who previously sounded good, I immediately start thinking "Here we go again."

Im not stupid, Ill take a 98% good candidate, but 98% good early in the campaign turns into 70% good late in the campaign, and about 50% good (or even worse) once in office.
 
True freedom only exist in the mind.

If thats true, lets just pack up and go home. We've got everything we want, in our minds.

If we cannot get behind Rand, Schiff and others championing our cause, it'll forever stay there.

Ill be behind them 100%... as long as they champion our cause.
 
You're not as intelligent as you THINK you are!

I was going to send you a private message but apperently I could only send you an email. So anyway I'm not sure if you just don't like me or what but I'm not sure what the point of this statement is.

I'm just wondering like.. why would u call me out like that. I guess I don't like being called out or when people insult me one way or the other...
 
If thats true, lets just pack up and go home. We've got everything we want, in our minds.



Ill be behind them 100%... as long as they champion our cause.

Did you just sign up here to start slinging your high-road?

Remember one thing, liberty candidates ARE the minority in this game. There are things called tactics. So lets not assume anything.

I see no logic is derailing a good solid chance to win with someone who you *think may not be perfect, only to allow a proven neocon take their place.

Where is the logic there?
 
Can you mischaracterize anymore? I advocate for private police. Where payment is voluntary. Why can't the police, fire, and other services be bundled in insurance plans? Why do I have to pay for yours or others services? Why does it have to be compulsory? How come I cannot provide for my own safety and protection?

This is foolhardy in a very practical sense. Say you don't pay for police, and I do. You and I have a disagreement about who owns a piece of property. I call my bought and paid for police, and they show up. You can't call them because you haven't paid. Who then get's arrested. I know, I know, you'll shoot me or whatever before I call them or whatever, but if you don't or can't, what would you do then?

Beyond the police, what about the Judicial? Would you like to have your trail in a private court room whom is a subcontractor of my paid for police agency?

Think of the old wild west, before Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, etc. were States. There existed out here mostly a form of Anarchy for the settler and gold rushers. Why did townships and settlements choose to elect a Sherrif and a Judge rather than pay a gang of men to enforce the law? The reason is almost self-explanatory. An elected Sherrif and Judge have a much better chance of achieving equal application and execution of the law than anyone for hire. The people of the Old West made a practical market decision. Equal application of the law and a reliable law enforcement service was better left to a governing body than in private hands. In private hands, one might hire the James-Younger gang, call them police, and use them as hired muscle to enforce their will on others.

The idea of privatizing law enforcement, trials, and punishment is a joke, and would never be even remotely practical. The only ways for men to protect their individual rights is to move to a remote desert island where no one lives, or institute a governing body period. Once a governing body is instituted the only way men can protect their rights to keep said government limited to it's proper role of protecting those rights. There is no two-ways about it.
 
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This is foolhardy in a very practical sense. Say you don't pay for police, and I do. You and I have a disagreement about who owns a piece of property. I call my bought and paid for police, and they show up. You can't call them because you haven't paid. Who then get's arrested. I know, I know, you'll shoot me or whatever before I call them or whatever, but if you don't or can't, what would you do then?

Beyond the police, what about the Judicial? Would you like to have your trail in a private court room whom is a subcontractor of my paid for police agency?

Think of the old wild west, before Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, etc. were States. There existed out here mostly a form of Anarchy for the settler and gold rushers. Why did townships and settlements choose to elect a Sherrif and a Judge rather than pay a gang of men to enforce the law? The reason is almost self-explanatory. An elected Sherrif and Judge have a much better chance of achieving equal application and execution of the law than anyone for hire. The people of the Old West made a practical market decision. Equal application of the law and a reliable law enforcement service was better left to a governing body than in private hands. In private hands, one might hire the James-Younger gang, call them police, and use them as hired muscle to enforce their will on others.

The idea of privatizing law enforcement, trials, and punishment is a joke, and would never be even remotely practical. The only ways for men to protect their individual rights is to move to a remote desert island where no one lives, or institute a governing body period. Once a governing body is instituted the only way men can protect their rights to keep said government limited to it's proper role of protecting those rights. There is no two-ways about it.

Hear, Hear!
 
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