Why do so many Ron Paul members doubt the dangers of socialism?

[Superfluous Man]

And just like every independent socialist country, Libya was sanctioned by the US and the west. Imagine how well it would have done without the sanctions?

Not very.

 

[James_Madison_Lives]

I'm arguing with several people over in the World section who believe that problems in Venezuela are being made up by the MSM and US government. I think if someone really understands the consequences of socialism, especially extreme socialism, they wouldn't even have to watch the news to know things were going to get bad in Venezuela. When I heard Chavez was nationalizing businesses and setting price controls, like 10 years ago, I didn't need the media to tell me what was going to happen. So now the stuff has hit the fan from price controls and elimination of private property rights, like night follows day. Yet these supposed libertarians think it's all a media and government conspiracy.

This doesn't mean I'm in favor of interventionism, I'm against it. It just means I understand the effects of socialism.

Here's a tiny bit of what Chavez has done and this was a while time ago. There's been even more bad things that have happened since then:

Factbox: Venezuela's nationalizations under Chavez
6 MIN READ

(Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez was re-elected on Sunday to another six-year term, potentially extending his rule to two decades and cementing his status as a dominant figure in modern Latin American history.

In 14 years in office, Chavez has nationalized major swaths of the OPEC nation’s economy as part of a socialist agenda.

Venezuelans expect more takeovers to come, possibly in the banking, health and food sectors.

Below are the main nationalizations under Chavez:

OIL
* In 2007, Chavez’s government took a majority stake in four oil projects in the vast Orinoco heavy crude belt worth an estimated $30 billion in total.

Exxon Mobil Corp and ConocoPhillips quit the country as a result and filed arbitration claims. Late last year, an arbitration panel ordered Venezuela to pay Exxon $908 million, though a larger case is still ongoing.

France’s Total SA and Norway’s StatoilHydro ASA received about $1 billion in compensation after reducing their holdings. Britain’s BP Plc and America’s Chevron Corp remained as minority partners.

* In 2008, Chavez’s administration implemented a windfall tax of 50 percent for prices over $70 per barrel, and 60 percent on oil over $100. Oil reached $147 that year, but soon slumped.

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* In 2009, Chavez seized a major gas injection project belonging to Williams Cos Inc and a range of assets from local service companies. This year, the energy minister said the government would pay $420 million to Williams and one of its U.S. partners, Exterran Holdings, for the takeover.

* In June 2010, the government seized 11 oil rigs from Oklahoma-based Helmerich & Payne Inc.

AGRICULTURE
* In 2009, Chavez nationalized a rice mill operated by a local unit of U.S. food giant Cargill Inc.

* In October 2010, Venezuela nationalized Fertinitro, one of the world’s biggest producers of nitrogen fertilizer, as well as Agroislena, a major local agricultural supply company. It also said it would take control of nearly 200,000 hectares (494,000 acres) of land owned by British meat company Vestey Foods.

* Vestey had already filed for arbitration over the earlier takeover of a ranch. Chavez said the latest deal with Vestey was a “friendly agreement.”

* In 2005, Chavez began implementing a 2001 law letting the state expropriate unproductive farms or seize land without proper titles. He has redistributed millions of acres deemed idle to boost food production and ease rural poverty.

* Chavez’s government has repeatedly threatened to seize Empresas Polar, Venezuela’s biggest employer and largest brewer and food processor.

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FINANCE
* In June 2010, Venezuela took over the mid-sized bank Banco Federal, citing liquidity problems and risk of fraud. The bank was closely linked to anti-government TV station Globovision.

* In 2009, Chavez paid $1 billion for Banco de Venezuela, a division of Spanish bank Grupo Santander.

* The government has closed a dozen small banks since November 2009 for what it said were operational irregularities. Some were reopened as state-run firms. Brokerages have also been closed and some employees jailed. Chavez has vowed to nationalize any bank that fails to meet government lending guidelines or is in financial trouble.

INDUSTRY
* In October 2010, Chavez ordered the takeover of the local operations of Owens Illinois Inc, which describes itself as the world’s largest glass container maker.

* Chavez in April 2008 announced the government takeover of the cement sector, targeting Switzerland’s Holcim Ltd, France’s Lafarge SA, and Mexico’s Cemex SAB de CV.

GOLD
* Chavez has considered bringing mining more firmly into state hands, and in 2009 the mining ministry seized Gold Reserve Inc’s Brisas project, which sits on one of Latin America’s largest gold veins. Gold Reserve immediately filed for arbitration with ICSID.

Pence, allies take new steps against Maduro
* In August 2011, Chavez said he was nationalizing the gold industry. Toronto-listed Rusoro Mining Ltd, owned by Russia’s Agapov family, was the only large gold miner operating in Venezuela, and this year it filed for arbitration.

STEEL
* The government paid $2 billion in 2009 for Argentine-led Ternium SA’s stake in Venezuela’s largest steel mill.

TELECOMMUNICATIONS
* In 2007, the nation’s largest telecommunications company CANTV was nationalized after the government bought out the U.S.-based Verizon Communications Inc’s 28.5 percent stake for $572 million. Analysts said Verizon received fair compensations for its assets.

POWER
* In 2007, Venezuela expropriated the assets of U.S.-based AES Corp in Electricidad de Caracas, the nation’s largest private power producer. The government paid AES $740 million for its 82 percent stake in the company. Analysts described the deal as fair for AES.

TRANSPORT
* In September 2011, the government nationalized a local ferry company, Conferry, which operates from the mainland to the resort island of Margarita. Conferry is owned by a wealthy family and began operating in 1959.

TOURISM
* In October 2011, Chavez said his government would seize private homes on the Los Roques archipelago in the Caribbean and use them for state-run tourism. The islands are among the nation’s favorite and most expensive tourist spots, with pristine white beaches and coral reefs that teem with sea life.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-election-nationalizations/factbox-venezuelas-nationalizations-under-chavez-idUSBRE89701X20121008

Some countries are so viciously unequal that they could use a dose of socialism, then when all boats are lifted they could shift to a more capitalist model. El Salvador for example. When you have half the population living in garbage bag tents and being sprayed by toxic pesticides because they are in the way of agribusiness, it's time for a revolution. People blame Castro for bringing socialism to Cuba but if Batista had not been such a monster, you never would have got Fidel in the first place.

 

[Superfluous Man]

Some countries are so viciously unequal that they could use a dose of socialism, then when all boats are lifted they could shift to a more capitalist model. El Salvador for example. When you have half the population living in garbage bag tents and being sprayed by toxic pesticides because they are in the way of agribusiness, it's time for a revolution. People blame Castro for bringing socialism to Cuba but if Batista had not been such a monster, you never would have got Fidel in the first place.

You should change your handle.

 

[UWDude]

And just like every independent socialist country, Libya was sanctioned by the US and the west. Imagine how well it would have done without the sanctions?

Sanctions don't do anything, remember?

Just kills 500,000 children in Iraq, which Madeleine Albright deemed "worth it".

But hey, Sanctions have NOTHING to do with Socialist countries "failing".

Nobody has named one instance of a successful socialist country, that DIDN'T get sanctions slapped on to it by a capitalist country.

Why are capitalist countries like that? Why does the biggest champion of Capitalism, (and Christianity, mind you), always gotta be killing people in socialist countries, and blockading them, and bombing them, until they become smoldering rubble... ..and then point to them, and say, "See socialism always fails! Name one successful socialist country!" And now we can add "Muslims are savages, look at them, they cant stop fighting!" After their countries and governments were shattered in Glass written colonial mandate boundaries by the Empires, who, quite wisely, determined they could not draw borders during decolonization that would allow a nation to become a world power.

Remember, Mongolia ruled the world once. Spain was once a superpower. Ethiopia defeated Italy in 1896. A small country can threaten the world. WW II Japan.

So post-Colonial nations are built to be split. Only a fool of an Empire would do otherwise. Imagine if France and Britain had set up the Middle East and Africa along ethnic boundaries. Some real monsters could have arisen out of ethnically unified countries in the Middle East. France built Lebanon to shatter it if necessary. It intentionally drew 5 distinct ethnic groups into one country, ruled via a strange constitution to be run by the Catholic Maronite ethnic group. Of course, they still wanted puppet control of Lebanon. It's not like French and Brits just left their post WW II colonies with an "all yours, see ya! nice knowin ya, enjoy your freedom!" They still had ways of controlling their former colonies, even after revolutions.

Point being, it is a really shitty thing to smash a small country, that had its way of doing things that were working, with sanctions, and then, bomb them, and then point to their shattered country, and say "see, what they were doing, wasn't working", which is a complete and utter lie, bypassing the truth of the sanctions and of course the war, which is always portrayed to Americans as some complicated thing happening overseas, too complicated to really understand... ..so of course they never consider the TRUE MISERY of war, of losing homes, and being pushed form once prosperous cities like Aleppo. Wars, designed to cause war and sew chaos, are very good at causing war and sewing chaos. And then things get shitty. And then Americans and Europeans point and laugh, and say "See Socialism never works" or "See Islam never works, its always just goat fuckers beating their wives"!

I know who my enemies are. I still Do.

 

[acptulsa]

Nobody has named one instance of a successful socialist country, that DIDN'T get sanctions slapped on to it by a capitalist country.

Well, "successful" is as relative a term as "socialist". Nevertheless, I saw Sweden, Iceland and Saudi Arabia mentioned.

Maybe you didn't see because you're telling us in a sanctimonious manner what's in a thread you didn't bother to read?

 

[UWDude]

Maybe you didn't see because you're telling us in a sanctimonious manner what's in a thread you didn't bother to read?

Good guess, but no. It's because admitting there have been successful socialist countries would shatter the world view of those who believe capitalism is the answer to everything.

It is also because it will point out that "capitalist" countries tend to engage in a ton of "intervention" whether you "condone intervention" or not.

 

[James_Madison_Lives]

Quote Originally Posted by James_Madison_Lives View Post
Some countries are so viciously unequal that they could use a dose of socialism, then when all boats are lifted they could shift to a more capitalist model. El Salvador for example. When you have half the population living in garbage bag tents and being sprayed by toxic pesticides because they are in the way of agribusiness, it's time for a revolution. People blame Castro for bringing socialism to Cuba but if Batista had not been such a monster, you never would have got Fidel in the first place.

You should change your handle.

James Madison was against revolution? How historically ignorant we have become.

 

[acptulsa]

Good guess, but no. It's because admitting there have been successful socialist countries would shatter the world view of those who believe capitalism is the answer to everything.

It is also because it will point out that "capitalist" countries tend to engage in a ton of "intervention" whether you "condone intervention" or not.

It wasn't a guess. Those three were mentioned somewhere around here yesterday, all fit your description as well as any country does, yet you deny it happened.

Does the term QED mean anything to you?

 

[UWDude]

Does the term QED mean anything to you?

No.
I also do not end every post I make with a question.

 

[acptulsa]

No.
I also do not end every post I make with a question.

That is indeed a pity.

Yes, I know you don't want our pity. But you've earned it.

 

[UWDude]

Just to clarify for the sake of fairness, you're saying that socialism is, in fact, a viable economic model at least in some instances? I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

You are understanding me correctly. I will testify it before the great Ron Paul Forums Judge, and his great forever banhammer.
I regret I have but one ban to give for the truth.

In fact, since the definition of "works" has still yet to be defined, I'd dare say there are dozens of ways of organizing a society, that "works".

 

[UWDude]

That is indeed a pity.

Yes, I know you don't want our pity. But you've earned it.

I am very hurt, that you, of all people, could say such a thing.

Somebody, please, confiscate acptulsa's pen! He is far too powerful with it!

 

[Superfluous Man]

James Madison was against revolution? How historically ignorant we have become.

He was against socialism.

Your second sentence is accurate, provided the antecedent of the pronoun is correctly identified.

 

[acptulsa]

Somebody, please, confiscate acptulsa's pen!

Yup. You're a socialist all right.

First you have to give me a pen. Then you can confiscate it.

 

[UWDude]

Yup. You're a socialist all right.

Yup, and Bob Dole and Donald Trump got the same treatment from the media and the elite.

Keep the truths comin' acptulsa. You are always right.

 

[acptulsa]

Yup, and Bob Dole and Donald Trump got the same treatment from the media and the elite.

Didn't read the link I spoon-fed you either, I see.

How do you type with your fingers in your ears?

 

[UWDude]

Didn't read the link I spoon-fed you either, I see.

How do you type with your fingers in your ears?

I lived through both, and watched both closely. I voted for Bob Dole. (I am a lot older than you thought, huh!?)
I don't need a New York Times explaining to me what I experienced.

So I don't need your link to explain to me what I witnessed and experienced. Politics was very important to me back then, too.

Bob Dole was treated nothing like Donald Trump.

None of the other Republican candidates were. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

 

[acptulsa]

I lived through both, and watched both closely. I voted for Bob Dole. (I am a lot older than you thought, huh!?)
I don't need a New York Times explaining to me what I experienced.

So I don't need your link to explain to me what I witnessed and experienced. Politics was very important to me back then, too.

Bob Dole was treated nothing like Donald Trump.

The treatment he got was identical except for degree. And I asked you three or four times if I had said they all got it to the same degree.

 

[Superfluous Man]

I lived through both, and watched both closely. I voted for Bob Dole. (I am a lot older than you thought, huh!?)

You don't have to be very old to have voted in 1996. Or are you talking about 1980?

 

[UWDude]

The treatment he got was identical except for degree.

Ice and steam are identical, except for degree.