Why do discussions about religion always lump God and afterlife together?

[Eagles' Wings]

RCA - you are obviously annoyed with this topic and the responses. Perhaps time and your own investigation will answer this for you.

 

[JK/SEA]

I'll take a stab at this question, and i am far from being what you would call a Theologian, but my OPINION is that the words GOD and HEAVEN or 'afterlife' are terms, or words, to describe something we as humans don't fully understand.

The concepts of God and Heaven are distilled down to these terms.

Is there a God?...is there really a Heaven?...no one really knows on any kind of pure intellectual earthly certainty, so we as humans use these descriptions. God. Heaven.

Go from there.

 

[RCA]

I'll take a stab at this question, and i am far from being what you would call a Theologian, but my OPINION is that the words GOD and HEAVEN or 'afterlife' are terms, or words, to describe something we as humans don't fully understand.

The concepts of God and Heaven are distilled down to these terms.

Is there a God?...is there really a Heaven?...no one really knows on any kind of pure intellectual earthly certainty, so we as humans use these descriptions. God. Heaven.

Go from there.

But why does there have to be both? Why can't one believe in one and not the other? Or why can't one believe in both without belonging to an "official" religion?

 

[pcosmar]

But why does there have to be both? Why can't one believe in one and not the other? Or why can't one believe in both without belonging to an "official" religion?

You can believe anything you want. People believed these things long before there was any "official" religion.

and many unofficial religions believe them as well

The fact that all major faiths,, share these commonalities,, and even lesser known beliefs share them (though differing on details) is something for personal consideration.

 

[JK/SEA]

But why does there have to be both? Why can't one believe in one and not the other? Or why can't one believe in both without belonging to an "official" religion?

you can. I do. I consider myself a lone wolf in spirituality.

 

[pcosmar]

you can. I do. I consider myself a lone wolf in spirituality.

I am curious as to what religion is official,,, and which are not?

and who says so?

 

[RCA]

You can believe anything you want. People believed these things long before there was any "official" religion.

and many unofficial religions believe them as well

The fact that all major faiths,, share these commonalities,, and even lesser known beliefs share them (though differing on details) is something for personal consideration.

I know you can. It's just that I hardly ever hear from either side say as such. For instance, I never hear a Christian say it's ok to believe in God or and afterlife if you don't believe in Jesus, or believe he was divine. Likewise, I never hear atheists say its ok to believe in those things and NOT be part of a religion, or they assume that you are part of a formal religion because of any of those beliefs.

 

[fr33]

Because on nearly every religion forum people want to argue why their beliefs are right and others' are wrong. That's just how it goes.

You could attempt to make a new topic and specify some rules for discussion for that topic to not include another subject. I'm not sure if the mods would help you keep it on topic. Maybe they would if you made the rules for the specific topic known.

 

[RCA]

Because on nearly every religion forum people want to argue why their beliefs are right and others' are wrong. That's just how it goes.

You could attempt to make a new topic and specify some rules for discussion for that topic to not include another subject. I'm not sure if the mods would help you keep it on topic. Maybe they would if you made the rules for the specific topic known.

Now we're getting some intelligent, topic related, responses. Yes, I was trying to pose an objective question regarding religion and only got people telling me what they believe instead of answering the question. I guess that's just the way it is apparently.

 

[pcosmar]

I know you can. It's just that I hardly ever hear from either side say as such. For instance, I never hear a Christian say it's ok to believe in God or and afterlife if you don't believe in Jesus, or believe he was divine. Likewise, I never hear atheists say its ok to believe in those things and NOT be part of a religion, or they assume that you are part of a formal religion because of any of those beliefs.

Lots of people (and religion) say a lot of things.

I am a Christian Believer,, (I believe in Christ), but I am irreligious and somewhat unconventional in some of my beliefs.
I find truths in other religions,,and believe that spiritual principles transcend religion. I can not speak for all christians,,only for myself.
What I believe.

and I believe that God gives us choice,, and hopes that we will choose him over many lies of the adversary.

I believe that if one honestly seeks truth,, it will be found. Piece by piece.

 

[RCA]

Lots of people (and religion) say a lot of things.

I am a Christian Believer,, (I believe in Christ), but I am irreligious and somewhat unconventional in some of my beliefs.
I find truths in other religions,,and believe that spiritual principles transcend religion. I can not speak for all christians,,only for myself.
What I believe.

and I believe that God gives us choice,, and hopes that we will choose him over many lies of the adversary.

I believe that if one honestly seeks truth,, it will be found. Piece by piece.

You must be in the minority, because most people I run into are either all or nothing on either side of the religious debate. I've rarely heard of anyone being halfway on one side or the other. It's always such a polarizing subject much like other topics.

 

[Sola_Fide]

You must be in the minority, because most people I run into are either all or nothing on either side of the religious debate. I've rarely heard of anyone being halfway on one side or the other. It's always such a polarizing subject much like other topics.

The misunderstanding you have is thinking that the question is "religion vs. no religion". That is not the question. The question is always "which religion?" You are as religious as everyone else.

 

[1stAmendguy]

Go back and re-read post 18.

I included "could be" in there. The conclusion that your religious dogma that all religious dogmas could be false must be false itself, even when including "could be," is inescapable.

erowe1 I see what you are trying to do here. You should know about Godel's incompleteness theorem which states that within every logical system there is going to be some propositions that are self-refuting. A system cannot be both consistent and complete. However, this isn't a conundrum if you embrace a coherence theory of truth or something similar, but of course you're probably totally comfortable with your foundational Christian epistemology.

 

[erowe1]

You should know about Godel's incompleteness theorem which states that within every logical system there is going to be some propositions that are self-refuting.

Godel's incompleteness theorem does not say that.

If a system includes propositions that are self-refuting, then those propositions, and the whole system to the extend that it demands them, must be wrong.

I don't hold a coherence theory of truth, I hold a correspondence theory of truth. But even coherence theories of truth do not allow for self-refuting claims (hence the name).

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Lots of people (and religion) say a lot of things.

I am a Christian Believer,, (I believe in Christ), but I am irreligious and somewhat unconventional in some of my beliefs.
I find truths in other religions,,and believe that spiritual principles transcend religion. I can not speak for all christians,,only for myself.
What I believe.

and I believe that God gives us choice,, and hopes that we will choose him over many lies of the adversary.

I believe that if one honestly seeks truth,, it will be found. Piece by piece.

I want to highlight Pete's statement here and I generally fall under the same. It relates to what I am going to say.

I know you can. It's just that I hardly ever hear from either side say as such. For instance, I never hear a Christian say it's ok to believe in God or and afterlife if you don't believe in Jesus, or believe he was divine. Likewise, I never hear atheists say its ok to believe in those things and NOT be part of a religion, or they assume that you are part of a formal religion because of any of those beliefs.

No one knows. I don't care what text people read or proclaim to be the Word of God. I could tell you a story, you tell your friend, by the time your friend tells a friend it will have lost meaning, gained interpretations etc. Now imagine that over a couple of thousand years with different rulers corrupting Word to fit their agenda of maintaining power.

Believe what you wish. It is simply your interpretation of the world and your experiences. I've met instant Christians, who prayed to God only when death was near or they felt obligated and I've met truly religious men. Spiritual types who seek to better themselves and do not care much to condemn other people. I like the latter. Nothing annoys me more than a man whose only reasoning behind following the religion is because he has been convinced of a Lake of Fire. If there is a God, he will see through their bullshit. Indeed call it blasphemous but my God would take the misguided and propagandized over immoral men who are such cowards as to follow based on supposed consequence.

Do your research. Why do people do this or that is a simple question. They were by and large trained, indoctrinated, or are cowards following simply because of the possibility. Now note, the people I get along with do not fall in this category. They use life lessons to develop their theory, are respectful and do not judge or offer fake words to clarify how much more moral they are than you. I don't care what religion one chooses to adhere to. People who sit on their high horses of judgement will surely get the swiftest judgement yet. If their God is as righteous as they claim. (which truth be told I fear a majority ought to hope not)

 

[1stAmendguy]

Godel's incompleteness theorem does not say that.

If a system includes propositions that are self-refuting, then those propositions, and the whole system to the extend that it demands them, must be wrong.

I don't hold a coherence theory of truth, I hold a correspondence theory of truth. But even coherence theories of truth do not allow for self-refuting claims (hence the name).

Yes it does, because it doesn't address x number of possible beliefs, it only addresses the beliefs that people actually hold. Hence, going back to RCA's argument.

 

[pcosmar]

You must be in the minority, because most people I run into are either all or nothing on either side of the religious debate. I've rarely heard of anyone being halfway on one side or the other. It's always such a polarizing subject much like other topics.

Well,, I am an individual. I call myself a Druidic Christian..to distinguish myself from the denominational arguments.

Back to your original question..Odin and Asgard are often discussed together.
The various "gods" and whatever spiritual plane they inhabit... as well.

"a rose by any other name"

I believe that spirituality is universal,, and understanding and descriptions vary.

The real question is,, are you seeking?,, or attempting to disprove?
This will color your findings.

 

[erowe1]

Yes it does, because it doesn't address x number of possible beliefs, it only addresses the beliefs that people actually hold. Hence, going back to RCA's argument.

Where are you getting this?

 

[1stAmendguy]

Where are you getting this?

Look, if I say it is both raining and not raining that on the surface seems self-refuting (contradiction, not true). But if you extend that to a particular set, say it is raining here but not raining there, the contradiction is overcome.

 

[erowe1]

Now we're getting some intelligent, topic related, responses. Yes, I was trying to pose an objective question regarding religion and only got people telling me what they believe instead of answering the question. I guess that's just the way it is apparently.

How could anyone answer the question without saying what they believe?

Fr33's post that you like states what he believes.