Why are there not more non-profit insurance companies?

BenisforRon said:
Question is, how do we get medical care expenses to go down? I think I need reread that healthcare chapter in The Revolution?

In my opinion the only way the cost of health care will go down is to refuse to buy insurance and find doctors who will give a discount for cash payment. Take the money away from the big insurance companies.
 
Pre Existing conditions.

A great portion of that 40 million uninsured are considered UNINSURABLE do to pre existing conditions, I am one of those. This is a problem that needs to be looked at. I can't get insurance for any price. Insurance companies take No risks anymore, and refuse to cover those that are insured. It's a scam. profit is one thing, robbery is another.


Here is a Representative List of generally considered Uninsurable preexisting Conditions,




AIDS/AIDS Related Complex
Addison’s Disease
Adrenal Gland Disorders
Alcohol Abuse or Treatment within past 8 years (within 5 if in AA)
ALS-Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis
Alzheimer’s Disease
Aneurysm
Angina Pectoris
Arteriosclerosis/Atherosclerosis/Arteriosclerotic Heart Disease
Asthma, Severe
Autism
Bipolar Disorder
Brain Tumor
Cancer (can consider basal cell or squamous cell skin cancer after removal)
Cardiomyopathy
Cerebral Palsy
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (unless treatment free for 10 years)
Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (COPD)
Cirrhosis of Liver
Colitis, Ulcerative
Collagen Diseases
Congestive Heart Failure
Connective Tissue Diseases, Lupus (LE)
Coronary Artery Disease
Crohn’s Disease – Regional enteritis (5 years)
Cystic Fibrosis
Diabetes – Insulin dependent
Down’s Syndrome
Drug treatment & Rehabilitation (reconsider after 8 years)
Eating Disorders – Bulimia, Anorexia Nervosa, Pica (within past 7 years)
Emphysema
Endocarditis
Epilepsy (seizure within past 5 years)
Esophageal Varices
Fibromialgia (certain types)
Glomerulonephritis
Heart Attack – Coronary Insufficiency – Myocardial Infarction
Hemophilia
Hemiplegia – Hemiparesis
Hepatitis – Chronic
Hepatitis B and C
High Blood Pressure/Hypertension (uncontrolled or newly diagnosed in past year)
HIV Infection
Hodgkin’s Disease
Hydrocephalus
Hydronephrosis (within the past year)
Kidney Failure or Dialysis
Leukemia
Lupus Erythematosus (LE)
Marfan Syndrome
Multiple Sclerosis
Muscular Dystrophy
Myasthenia Gravis
Organ Transplant Recipient/Candidate (includes bone marrow)
Osteogenesis Imperfecta – Bone Disease
Pacemaker, Artificial
Pancreatitis
Parkinson’s Disease
Peripheral Vascular Disease (except Raynaud’s)
Pituitary Dwarfism
Polycystic Kidney Disease
Pregnancy, Current
Psychiatric/Psychological Disorders, severe
Pulmonary Fibrosis
Pulmonary Embolism (within past 6-12 months)
Quadriplegia
Renal Failure
Reye’s Syndrome (within past year)
Rheumatoid arthritis
Schizophrenia-Paranoia
Scleroderma
Sickle Cell Anemia
Stroke (Cerebral Hemorrhage, Thrombosis or Embolism)
Suicide Attempt (within past 5-10 years)
TIA (Transient Ischemic Attack)
Von Recklinghausen’s Disease
 
I'll save you the time reading the report on hospital charges to insurance companies...

[url]http://www.sec.gov/comments/s7-11-06/s71106-28.pdf[/URL]

This is from charge from 3 years ago:

Hospital overcharges; e.g.,
$100 for an aspirin
,
$50 for a "mucous recovery device" (tissue), and
$25,000 for one hour in the ER to set a broken finger,

cost health plans tens of thousands of dollars.
If you and your organization, along with every other responsible division of government, do not immediately take action to hold responsible all who feast at the financial trough of free flowing healthcare, then the system will bankrupt society. Nothing will be there to assist individuals who truly have significant medical needs.

Generally if you tell the hospital that you are paying cash they give you the real rates, not the insurance company overcharge/kickback rates.
 
http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=1439
Health care costs main cause of personal bankruptcy, study findsby NewStandard Staff Feb. 4, 2005 – A study published Wednesday in the policy journal Health Affairs found that approximately half of people in the US who file for bankruptcy cite medical costs as a significant reason for their financial troubles. Based on a survey of 1,771 personal bankruptcy filers, the researchers extrapolated that between 1.9 and 2.2 million people were driven into bankruptcy because of health care costs in 2001.

Led by David Himmelstein, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School, the researchers further found that three-quarters of those "medical bankruptcy" filers had insurance at the onset of illness. Analysts thus conclude that providing health care coverage to the millions of uninsured Americans will not necessarily save severely ill people from financial hardship unless other reforms are enacted to improve coverage.

The researchers reported four "deficiencies in the financial safety net for American families confronting illness." For instance, in addition to the 45 million people in the US lacking health insurance, many more Americans experience involuntary gaps in coverage due to unaffordable premiums, loss of employment -- sometimes due to illness -- and other factors. The study found that even short lapses in health insurance can lead to severe debt and bankruptcy.

Other major causes of medical bankruptcy identified in the study include deficiencies in health insurance plans, job loss and subsequent insurance loss due to illness or need to take care of sick family members, lack of disability benefits or paid sick leave.

"Only broad reforms can address these problems," wrote the researchers. "Even universal coverage could leave many Americans vulnerable to bankruptcy unless such coverage was much more comprehensive than many current policies." They also suggested the separation of health insurance from employment, so that job loss would not lead to loss of coverage; the closing of loopholes in health insurance plans that force families to pay exorbitant costs for medically necessary care; and better safety net programs to help families financially struggling when their primary income earner is ill or caring for a sick family member.
 
The meaning of insurance

A great portion of that 40 million uninsured are considered UNINSURABLE do to pre existing conditions, I am one of those. This is a problem that needs to be looked at. I can't get insurance for any price. Insurance companies take No risks anymore, and refuse to cover those that are insured. It's a scam. profit is one thing, robbery is another.


Here is a Representative List of generally considered Uninsurable preexisting Conditions,




AIDS/AIDS Related Complex
Addison’s Disease
Adrenal Gland Disorders
Alcohol Abuse or Treatment within past 8 years (within 5 if in AA)
ALS-Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis
Alzheimer’s Disease
Aneurysm
Angina Pectoris
Arteriosclerosis/Atherosclerosis/Arteriosclerotic Heart Disease
Asthma, Severe
Autism
Bipolar Disorder
Brain Tumor
Cancer (can consider basal cell or squamous cell skin cancer after removal)
Cardiomyopathy
Cerebral Palsy
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (unless treatment free for 10 years)
Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (COPD)
Cirrhosis of Liver
Colitis, Ulcerative
Collagen Diseases
Congestive Heart Failure
Connective Tissue Diseases, Lupus (LE)
Coronary Artery Disease
Crohn’s Disease – Regional enteritis (5 years)
Cystic Fibrosis
Diabetes – Insulin dependent
Down’s Syndrome
Drug treatment & Rehabilitation (reconsider after 8 years)
Eating Disorders – Bulimia, Anorexia Nervosa, Pica (within past 7 years)
Emphysema
Endocarditis
Epilepsy (seizure within past 5 years)
Esophageal Varices
Fibromialgia (certain types)
Glomerulonephritis
Heart Attack – Coronary Insufficiency – Myocardial Infarction
Hemophilia
Hemiplegia – Hemiparesis
Hepatitis – Chronic
Hepatitis B and C
High Blood Pressure/Hypertension (uncontrolled or newly diagnosed in past year)
HIV Infection
Hodgkin’s Disease
Hydrocephalus
Hydronephrosis (within the past year)
Kidney Failure or Dialysis
Leukemia
Lupus Erythematosus (LE)
Marfan Syndrome
Multiple Sclerosis
Muscular Dystrophy
Myasthenia Gravis
Organ Transplant Recipient/Candidate (includes bone marrow)
Osteogenesis Imperfecta – Bone Disease
Pacemaker, Artificial
Pancreatitis
Parkinson’s Disease
Peripheral Vascular Disease (except Raynaud’s)
Pituitary Dwarfism
Polycystic Kidney Disease
Pregnancy, Current
Psychiatric/Psychological Disorders, severe
Pulmonary Fibrosis
Pulmonary Embolism (within past 6-12 months)
Quadriplegia
Renal Failure
Reye’s Syndrome (within past year)
Rheumatoid arthritis
Schizophrenia-Paranoia
Scleroderma
Sickle Cell Anemia
Stroke (Cerebral Hemorrhage, Thrombosis or Embolism)
Suicide Attempt (within past 5-10 years)
TIA (Transient Ischemic Attack)
Von Recklinghausen’s Disease

REAL insurance does not cover problems that are know to exist. REAL insurance covers the RISK of problems that will probably NOT occur. The government-driven conversion of medical insurance into medical service plans is largely responsible for the cost of health care going out of sight. But let me explain the concept of risk-pooling a bit more fully.

I am 52 years old. If I buy life insurance for this year, I am buying insurance that will ONLY pay out in the unlikely event that I die this year. They have actuarial tables that tell them the risk, given my age, non-smoker, history of disease etc. I will only have to pay $100 or so to get like $250,000 in insurance. If I die this year, the insurance company can pay the $250,000 even though I have paid in only a hundred because thousands of other people bought insurance and DIDN'T die. This is called risk pooling. Real insurance is a risk-pooling business that benefits everyone involved.

Another example. I pay a few hundred bucks a year for fire insurance on my home. Chances are, my house will not burn down this year. It will probably never burn down. But if it does, the insurance company can pay $350,000 because, once again, thousands of other people bought fire insurance for their houses that didn't burn down. Risk pooling. This is what insurance is about. If everyone's house burned down every year, fire "insurance" would cost each person $350,000 a year and the fire insurance wouldn't be real insurance because it would cover a cost that was known to occur. Real insurance only works when pooling risks of costs for unlikely events.

Health insurance USED to be real risk-pooling insurance. It covered only catastrophic events. Regular care and the cost of known conditions was not covered because they are not risks, they are known problems. When insurance starts paying for known problems, health maintenance, and voluntary procedures, it is no longer risk-pooling insurance, but some kind of socialized health service plan. And at that point it starts driving up the cost of health care in general because it constitutes a massive subsidy. And the "insurance" itself starts getting very expensive because the policy holders are encouraged to over-consume while providers are encouraged to over-charge.

Government tax incentives and direct legislation on required coverage has turned health insurance into a forced health care subsidy system that has made it nearly impossible to afford health care out of pocket.

The answer is to get government out of health care entirely!
 
Regular care and health maintainance can help prevent more costly conditions from occuring in the future. These can possibly lower the long term medical costs of a person.

Found some more detailed info on the bankrupsy issue:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html
Most of the medical bankruptcy filers were middle class; 56 percent owned a home and the same number had attended college. In many cases, illness forced breadwinners to take time off from work -- losing income and job-based health insurance precisely when families needed it most.

Dr. David Himmelstein, the lead author of the study and an Associate Professor of Medicine at Harvard commented: "Unless you're Bill Gates you're just one serious illness away from bankruptcy. Most of the medically bankrupt were average Americans who happened to get sick."

Today's health insurance policies -- with high deductibles, co-pays, and many exclusions -- offer little protection during a serious illness. Uncovered medical bills averaged $13,460 for those with private insurance at the start of their illness. People with cancer had average medical debts of $35,878.

"The paradox is that the costliest health system in the world performs so poorly. We waste one-third of every health care dollar on insurance bureaucracy and profits while two million people go bankrupt annually and we leave 45 million uninsured" said Dr. Quentin Young, national coordinator of Physicians for a National Health Program.
 
This question baffles me. It seems like something like that would form, especially with over 40 million uninsured Americans. If they didn't worry about increasing profit margins, marketing, and other excess costs, couldn't they step in and fill that void?

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html

The latest episode of Bill Moyers is all about the crisis. It shows clear evidence of Republicans reciting, point for point, insurance company memos. So John Boener is not our friend at all in this, as he would like for his buddies to maintain control over the system.

So, given the obvious lopsided nature of our system, why hasn't a not for profit system arose to meet that huge demand from the non-insured?


In Michigan (and probably many other states), Blue Cross Blue Shield is a non-profit heavily regulated by the government. This leads to a system where it serves the needs of NO ONE efficiently.

Check out the MI govt. is stopping Blue Cross from raising its rates - http://www.freep.com/article/200907...n+to+raise+rates+for+400+000+ahead+of+hearing
 
REAL insurance does not cover problems that are know to exist. REAL insurance covers the RISK of problems that will probably NOT occur. The government-driven conversion of medical insurance into medical service plans is largely responsible for the cost of health care going out of sight. But let me explain the concept of risk-pooling a bit more fully.

I am 52 years old. If I buy life insurance for this year, I am buying insurance that will ONLY pay out in the unlikely event that I die this year. They have actuarial tables that tell them the risk, given my age, non-smoker, history of disease etc. I will only have to pay $100 or so to get like $250,000 in insurance. If I die this year, the insurance company can pay the $250,000 even though I have paid in only a hundred because thousands of other people bought insurance and DIDN'T die. This is called risk pooling. Real insurance is a risk-pooling business that benefits everyone involved.

Another example. I pay a few hundred bucks a year for fire insurance on my home. Chances are, my house will not burn down this year. It will probably never burn down. But if it does, the insurance company can pay $350,000 because, once again, thousands of other people bought fire insurance for their houses that didn't burn down. Risk pooling. This is what insurance is about. If everyone's house burned down every year, fire "insurance" would cost each person $350,000 a year and the fire insurance wouldn't be real insurance because it would cover a cost that was known to occur. Real insurance only works when pooling risks of costs for unlikely events.

Health insurance USED to be real risk-pooling insurance. It covered only catastrophic events. Regular care and the cost of known conditions was not covered because they are not risks, they are known problems. When insurance starts paying for known problems, health maintenance, and voluntary procedures, it is no longer risk-pooling insurance, but some kind of socialized health service plan. And at that point it starts driving up the cost of health care in general because it constitutes a massive subsidy. And the "insurance" itself starts getting very expensive because the policy holders are encouraged to over-consume while providers are encouraged to over-charge.

Government tax incentives and direct legislation on required coverage has turned health insurance into a forced health care subsidy system that has made it nearly impossible to afford health care out of pocket.

The answer is to get government out of health care entirely!

Precisely. QFT
 
Acala:

One thing you are missing, though, is that it isn't a pure pool. Insurance companies often have investments which grow that pool, at least in a normal economy.
 
Another example of 'uninsurable' is in property insurance.

Some folks on the coasts of Florida in areas that have been rebuilt multiple times after hurricanes cannot be insured by any private company, because it's not worth the risk.

So the logical course would be to build somewhere else -- but instead, the state of Florida (read: taxpayers) are burdened to insure these poor geographical housing choices at a huge loss.

Houses keep getting torn down, then taxpayers all over the state pay as they are rebuilt again in high risk areas. Many times the check received is FAR greater than the actual cost of repair -- in effect a profit for those who choose to live in high risk areas, at the detriment of those who are wiser / more sensible.

Private industry wouldn't endorse this inefficiency, waste, or injustice -- no company could afford it, and the educated consumers would not allow it.
 
Thanks for the answers guys.

Government tax incentives and direct legislation on required coverage has turned health insurance into a forced health care subsidy system that has made it nearly impossible to afford health care out of pocket.

Which direct legislation are you talking about? I'm curious because I need to know all this before I buy insurance for myself in the near future. Anybody have any relevant websites to what we're talking about here?
 
They are called "mutual" insurance companies. I have my car and home insurance with a mutual company. When they make a profit, they divide it up and send out checks to the members. I used to get a check every year but not for last year. Insurance companies are huge investors and when the stock market tanks they eat it.

Low price, great service. USAA!!!

Best company on the Planet. Member owned, born from a small group of officers insuring each other. Excess funds go into a SSA and reduce/eliminate costs. They are considering offering health coverage. Hope they stay away from it.
 
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