Who was the Greatest Founding Father?

[Truth Warrior]

It was an indirect national referendum. The Constitution was NOT ratified by any state legislature. Nor was it ratified by people selected by any state legislature. The ratification process completely bypassed the state legislatures.

And completely bypassed "We the People of the United States" TOO. It's usually not a real good portent of coming events when your document starts out, first thing, with a bald-faced LIE.

No Treason. No. VI, The Constitution of No Authority. (1870).*

 

[Galileo Galilei]

Page 23

Letter from Jefferson to John Dickinson, August 9, 1803.

"But there is a difficulty in this acquisition which presents a handle to the malcontents among us, though they have not yet discovered it. Our confederation is certainly confined to limits established by the revolution. The general government has no powers but such as the constitution has given it; and it has not given it a power of holding foreign territory, and still less of incorporating it into the Union..."

http://books.google.com/books?id=vB0IAAAAIAAJ&dq=louisiana+purchase+%2B+unconstitutional&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=GR2h2UB9C8&sig=zj1u2N_x_fJ47uH0N-hnsaBUm-8&hl=en&ei=yGS3SfPIH-PetgeLkaWmCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA23,M1

Power to make and ratify treaties is given in the Constitution, and given to the president and the Senate. You still haven't explained anything.

Sorting out land ownership issues has always been a part of treaty making powers, it was part of the common law and predates Magna Carta. Go read some Vattal or Grotius.

There is the strict constructionist interpretation of the Constitution, and then there is the anal-retentive interpretation.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

And completely bypassed "We the People of the United States" TOO. It's usually not a real good portent of coming events when your document starts out, first thing, with a bald-faced LIE.

No Treason. No. VI, The Constitution of No Authority. (1870).*

The PEOPLE elected the representatives of the ratifying conventions. How would so have done it, smarty pants? You think you're better than James Madison, eh?

 

[Truth Warrior]

The PEOPLE elected the representatives of the ratifying conventions. How would so have done it, smarty pants? You think you're better than James Madison, eh?

What people? How many? Was it legal under the A o C?

Well, I'm certainly taller and I'm not a politician NOR a Federalist cabal coup criminal co-conspirator. So YEAH!

 

[strapko]

I like Thomas Jefferson, because he was a crazy philosopher on the role of government and understood many flaws in different systems of government. His quotes are amazing, his knowlegde of economics/monetary policy were very good as well.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

 

[Chester Copperpot]

I have to go with Madison because I'm related to him.

(not by blood though)

thats why I voted for Franklin.. Im telling you.. there are a goodly amount of relatives in the liberty movement.. for good reason .

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

 

[Truth Warrior]

Has nothing to do with how I feel about the A o C. We already went there. I feel the constitution has the ability to rally American support still. Advocating the constitution has the moral high ground because all public offices are sworn to it.

You want to go from where we are now to the A o C, or maybe even the D o I and redraft the A o C and would probably prefer not to stop and restore the constitution. As far as viable tactics and strategy go, I do not see that happening. The battle for the constitution is already a difficult one. Whether you admit it or not the most viable tactic is the constitution and article v. I do not think you disagree that time is of the essence.

No, I'd much rather go forward to:

"Freedom, Peace and Prosperity" -- Ron Paul

And, BTW that tain't NEVER coming from D.C..<IMHO>

Frankly, I think our die was cast and the course was set in 1913.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

What people? How many? Was it legal under the A o C?

Well, I'm certainly taller and I'm not a politician NOR a Federalist cabal coup criminal co-conspirator. So YEAH!

Do you even know what you're talking about?

First of all, if PEOPLE hold statewide elections, whose business is it for the STATE to stop them? Are you a statist?

Secondly, the state legislatures authorized the elections for representitives to the ratifying convention, so it was legal.

And the A of C also authorized the declaration introducing the Constitution and ordered it sent to the several states.

Learn your basic history.

You've been duped by the old canard.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

Now you are just cracking me up. How can Jefferson be your savior on one hand and anal-retentive on the other.

You already cited Jefferson as an expert. Hold on let me see. Ah yes, here it is. Bold and extremely emphasized.



So I reckon Jefferson's own words weren't good enough for you as to the reasons it was unconstitutional. Well I sure as hell am not going to argue with some fool who is criticizing the rest of the thread to wake up because Jefferson knows the constitution better than any of us, and then denies Jefferson's own writings as to why it was unconstitutional.

Jefferson is not the father of the Constitution, James Madison is. Jefferson wasn't even at the Constitutional convention. Nor was Jefferson a profound constitutional thinker.

You also get duped by words. Go by deeds. Jefferson, Monroe, Livingston, anf the Senate ratified the treaty.

You still haven't explained to us why this treaty is supposedly unconstitional, nor have you cited anything specific from Jefferson.

 

[Truth Warrior]

Do you even know what you're talking about?

First of all, if PEOPLE hold statewide elections, whose business is it for the STATE to stop them? Are you a statist?

Secondly, the state legislatures authorized the elections for representitives to the ratifying convention, so it was legal.

And the A of C also authorized the declaration introducing the Constitution and ordered it sent to the several states.

Learn your basic history.

You've been duped by the old canard.

I'm trying to, but you continue to REFUSE to answer the questions?

Apparently you also fail to grasp the very simple concept of "We the People of the United States".

Hamilton's involvement alone should be a dead giveaway of "shenanigans" all by itself.

What was the AUTHORIZED ( legal ) PURPOSE of the 1787 Philadelphia convention?

On January 21, 1786, the Virginia Legislature, following James Madison's recommendation, invited all the states to send delegates to Annapolis, Maryland to discuss ways to reduce these interstate conflicts At what came to be known as the Annapolis Convention, the few state delegates in attendance endorsed a motion that called for all states to meet in Philadelphia in May, 1787 to discuss ways to improve the Articles of Confederation in a "Grand Convention." Although the states' representatives to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia were only authorized to amend the Articles, the representatives held secret, closed-door sessions and wrote a new constitution. The new Constitution gave much more power to the central government, but characterization of the result is disputed. The general goal of the authors was to get as close to a republic as was defined by the philosophers throughout the Age of Enlightenment; All while trying to balance it against the many difficulties of the interstate relationships. Historian Forrest McDonald, using the ideas of James Madison from Federalist 39, describes the change this way:

The constitutional reallocation of powers created a new form of government, unprecedented under the sun. Every previous national authority either had been centralized or else had been a confederation of sovereign states. The new American system was neither one nor the other; it was a mixture of both.[9]
​

When approached after leaving the close of the Federal Convention, Benjamin Franklin was asked a question. This is the conversation as has been recorded:

The lady asked "Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?"

“A Republic, if you can keep it.” was the response of Benjamin Franklin.
​

Madison superiority addendum:

I'm NOT a lawyer.
I didn't marry a gal named "Dolly".

Care to try and whistle past that graveyard again?

Do you want to tell Lew or just quit now while you're behind?

 

[Galileo Galilei]

I'm trying to, but you continue to REFUSE to answer the questions?

Apparently you also fail to grasp the very simple concept of "We the People of the United States".

Hamilton's involvement alone should be a dead giveaway of "shenanigans" all by it itself.

What was the AUTHORIZED ( legal ) PURPOSE of the 1787 Philadelphia convention?


Madison superiority addendum:

I'm NOT a lawyer.
I didn't marry a gal named "Dolly".

Care to try and whistle past that graveyard again?

Do you want to tell Lew or just quit now while you're behind?

Who authorized the Declaration of Independence? Who authorized the Continental Congress? Who authorized the Stamp Act congress?

 

[Truth Warrior]

Who authorized the Declaration of Independence? Who authorized the Continental Congress? Who authorized the Stamp Act congress?

Good questions, we may choose to cover them later.

 

[Truth Warrior]

Jefferson is not the father of the Constitution, James Madison is. Jefferson wasn't even at the Constitutional convention. Nor was Jefferson a profound constitutional thinker.

You also get duped by words. Go by deeds. Jefferson, Monroe, Livingston, anf the Senate ratified the treaty.

You still haven't explained to us why this treaty is supposedly unconstitional, nor have you cited anything specific from Jefferson.

The Federalist cabal was so fearful of TJ's popularity among the people, they thought his opposition just might scuttle the attempted coup. So they waited until he was safely occupied in France, before making their move.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make ye free" .... but first it will really tick ye off.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

The Federalist cabal was so fearful of TJ's popularity among the people, they thought his opposition just might scuttle the attempted coup. So they waited until he was safely occupied in France, before making their move.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make ye free" .... but first it will really tick ye off.

Jefferson never opposed the Constitution. He road with James Madison.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

What people? How many? Was it legal under the A o C?

Well, I'm certainly taller and I'm not a politician NOR a Federalist cabal coup criminal co-conspirator. So YEAH!

The Founding Fathers authorized the Constitutional Convention.

Ben Franklin

James Madison

George Washington

George Mason

Robert Morris

Edmund Randolph (Governor of Virginia)

Elbridge Gerry

James Wilson

John Rutledge

George Wythe

Luther Martin

G. Morris

John Dickinson

Gunning Bedford

Roger Sherman

William Paterson

Oliver Ellsworth

Charles Pinckney

General Charles Cotesworth Pinckney

Dr. Hugh Williamson

Dan Carrol

Alexander Hamilton

Pierce Butler

Abraham Baldwin

George Read

George Clymer

John Blair

Nathaniel Gorham

etc.

Now, again, tell me who authorized the Declaration of Independence and the continental congress?

You have an illogical double standard.

 

[Truth Warrior]

The Founding Fathers authorized the Constitutional Convention.

Ben Franklin

James Madison

George Washington

George Mason

Robert Morris

Edmund Randolph (Governor of Virginia)

Elbridge Gerry

James Wilson

John Rutledge

George Wythe

Luther Martin

G. Morris

John Dickinson

Gunning Bedford

Roger Sherman

William Paterson

Oliver Ellsworth

Charles Pinckney

General Charles Cotesworth Pinckney

Dr. Hugh Williamson

Dan Carrol

Alexander Hamilton

Pierce Butler

Abraham Baldwin

George Read

George Clymer

John Blair

Nathaniel Gorham

etc.

Now, again, tell me who authorized the Declaration of Independence and the continental congress?

You have an illogical double standard.

By WHAT authority? They weren't the FFs then. They were just a bunch of guys, out of several million. They weren't GODS for Pete's sake, just politicians. About the same as in the 21st century, except in general, somewhat brighter.

Now, how about my OTHER unanswered questions?

Not AT ALL. We're talking about the CONstitution. You want to change the subject, for understandable reasons. I do not. What's the "double standard' about that?

Chill!

 

[Kraig]

By WHAT authority? They weren't the FFs then. They were just a bunch of guys, out of several million. They weren't GODS for Pete's sake, just politicians. About the same as in the 21st century, except in general, somewhat brighter.

Yeah and alot of people here need to realize that IMO!

 

[Truth Warrior]

Jefferson never opposed the Constitution. He road with James Madison.

Jefferson was in France during what years? Is it not reasonable, that if he supported it, he would have been there?