Who plans on joining the Free State Project in New Hampshire this year?

[MelissaWV]

Same. I like nice weather, and as much as Keith tries to convince me otherwise, NH is fucking cold. However, I'd prefer to live free and cold than warm and enslaved. Small sacrifice.



Why? Because of this fear that the government will kill us all? Putting aside how ridiculous that sounds, at some point you have to make a choice: do I continue to live life as a slave because it's the safe choice, or do I stand up for myself and take my freedom back?



People fighting for a right to do something that doesn't harm others is what would turn you against moving there? /baffled

Yeah this response doesn't really shock me, as it's the same one I always get. To you, the cold seems to be a matter of going "brrr" and putting on another jacket. To me, extreme cold and having to dig out from a potentially snowbound home is a matter of old fractures, dislocations, and other injuries making themselves painfully and constantly known. I also prefer to have more options when it comes to food and water, and that comes more easily with springs and a different climate. I greatly enjoy the local food here, as I did in WV. When I have gone as far as New England, I found that the quality of much of the produce was quite poor, that the potential for growing many of the things I enjoyed was non-existant, and that asking grocery stores for tropical staples that have always formed a part of my diet (even if they are imported) usually caused a chuckle or guffaw or a very angry look. Climate is just not a matter of fashion.

Moving my non-English-speaking grandmother to NH sounds so charming, and my aging parents can come, too, and would be glad to know the effects of those winters upon a pair of artificial knees and myriad arthritic joints. I notice you also skipped over the part about having access to excellent medical care. I don't blame you.

* * *

do I continue to live life as a slave because it's the safe choice

Yes, because if I don't do as you say/do, I'm a slave. I've certainly done nothing locally to attempt to further freedom and prosperity. I am absolutely not attempting to make a good and liberty-laden life for myself and my family. Nope, I'm just submitting to a life of absolute slavery because I don't want to move to NH (???). You are putting all of your eggs in one basket by attempting to simultaneously change a government's composition and fend off a growing population swarming up from Massachusetts. That you decided I meant I was afraid the government would swoop in and kill everyone in the FSP is astounding, and rather indicative of something, I'd think.

* * *

Yeah, I somehow don't think that you get why on earth I don't need my grandmother gazing out her window at a random protest that might involve nudity or shouting or whatever else... rather than the very nice garden that currently fills her view. That is hyperbole, of course, but why would I willingly move into the sort of thing you're describing as "fighting for a right," yet that I see as a cry for constant attention? You talked about getting involved in politics, which is actually fighting, and then you are "baffled" by why I, who've lived around marches and protests far too often in my prior time near DC, would not choose to live in that circus again.

Can you accept that some folks might not want the glitter without being "baffled" or accusing them of wanting to be "safe"? I thought freedom also allowed for people who just want things to be quiet on their property.

 

[TheTexan]

Yeah this response doesn't really shock me, as it's the same one I always get. To you, the cold seems to be a matter of going "brrr" and putting on another jacket. To me, extreme cold and having to dig out from a potentially snowbound home is a matter of old fractures, dislocations, and other injuries making themselves painfully and constantly known. I also prefer to have more options when it comes to food and water, and that comes more easily with springs and a different climate. I greatly enjoy the local food here, as I did in WV. When I have gone as far as New England, I found that the quality of much of the produce was quite poor, that the potential for growing many of the things I enjoyed was non-existant, and that asking grocery stores for tropical staples that have always formed a part of my diet (even if they are imported) usually caused a chuckle or guffaw or a very angry look. Climate is just not a matter of fashion.

Moving my non-English-speaking grandmother to NH sounds so charming, and my aging parents can come, too, and would be glad to know the effects of those winters upon a pair of artificial knees and myriad arthritic joints. I notice you also skipped over the part about having access to excellent medical care. I don't blame you.

* * *

Yes, because if I don't do as you say/do, I'm a slave. I've certainly done nothing locally to attempt to further freedom and prosperity. I am absolutely not attempting to make a good and liberty-laden life for myself and my family. Nope, I'm just submitting to a life of absolute slavery because I don't want to move to NH (???). You are putting all of your eggs in one basket by attempting to simultaneously change a government's composition and fend off a growing population swarming up from Massachusetts. That you decided I meant I was afraid the government would swoop in and kill everyone in the FSP is astounding, and rather indicative of something, I'd think.

* * *

Yeah, I somehow don't think that you get why on earth I don't need my grandmother gazing out her window at a random protest that might involve nudity or shouting or whatever else... rather than the very nice garden that currently fills her view. That is hyperbole, of course, but why would I willingly move into the sort of thing you're describing as "fighting for a right," yet that I see as a cry for constant attention? You talked about getting involved in politics, which is actually fighting, and then you are "baffled" by why I, who've lived around marches and protests far too often in my prior time near DC, would not choose to live in that circus again.

Can you accept that some folks might not want the glitter without being "baffled" or accusing them of wanting to be "safe"? I thought freedom also allowed for people who just want things to be quiet on their property.

You seem to be very good at taking things personally. I meant no disrespect. Though you'll probably take this personally too. (sigh)

Yes, because if I don't do as you say/do, I'm a slave

Unless you're living off the grid, outside the long armed reach of the government, yes, you're a slave. Whether you realize it not. If you don't realize it, more power to you, I'm happy that you're happy - sincerely.

You are putting all of your eggs in one basket... etc

Just a FYI, but as long as we get enough people behind the movement, it is impossible to fail. Even if we were to fail, we'd still win. There is no possible outcome where we lose, as long as we try.

 

[MelissaWV]

Unless you're living off the grid, outside the long armed reach of the government, yes, you're a slave. Whether you realize it not. If you don't realize it, more power to you, I'm happy that you're happy - sincerely.

But earlier you were so proud of making changes within NH's government. This would also speak against moving, since NH is not exactly government-free, nor ever likely to be.

And yeah, your response was to my personal reasons for not moving (some of which you dismissed out of hand as being totally silly), so I responded about my personal reasons.

 

[tbone717]

Putting aside how ridiculous that sounds, at some point you have to make a choice: do I continue to live life as a slave because it's the safe choice, or do I stand up for myself and take my freedom back?

Statements like this make little sense. It is not like NH is some paradise. So there is no sales & income tax - ok I get that. But there still is property tax, and from what I have determined it is as much or maybe slightly more than I pay now. So there are less zoning laws. Woohoo I get to put a car up on blocks in my front yard without fear of a letter from the township - freedom at last!

Look NH is not utopia, and while it may be more favorable to libertarian ideals than other places, it does not make it the perfect place to live. You will still pay federal taxes, and businesses are still subject to regulation. We can work to change that from every part of this country. Just because we all don't buy into the dream that 20,000 people living in NH is going to create a perfect world, doesn't mean we are all choosing slavery.

 

[TheTexan]

But earlier you were so proud of making changes within NH's government. This would also speak against moving, since NH is not exactly government-free, nor ever likely to be.

Big difference: the government I was referring to is our current government, which historically speaking is quite an impressive tyranny, especially when you consider the scope & size of it. Depending on the factors you use for comparison, the United States could arguably be the most tyrannical society in the history of man kind.

FSP seeks to carve out a small geographic area, where at least we can be free (or at least *mostly* free).

And yeah, your response was to my personal reasons for not moving (some of which you dismissed out of hand as being totally silly), so I responded about my personal reasons.

I still dismiss your boob protest fear as being totally silly.

 

[MelissaWV]

I still dismiss your boob protest fear as being totally silly.

It's not a fear. It's called "preference," but it's been lost in all the PC garbage that ironically states we should all care about the same things to the same degree... in order to be worthy of being free.

 

[TheTexan]

Statements like this make little sense. It is not like NH is some paradise. So there is no sales & income tax - ok I get that. But there still is property tax, and from what I have determined it is as much or maybe slightly more than I pay now. So there are less zoning laws. Woohoo I get to put a car up on blocks in my front yard without fear of a letter from the township - freedom at last!

I agree that there's nothing really special about NH that makes this the only place where this strategy would work. The strategy could actually work anywhere. NH just has a head start with the FSP, but if people wanted to do the same thing but somewhere else, I'd fully support that too.

The point is, the laws in NH may not be all that awesome right now, but if we just pick a location and move there as a group, we can shape the laws how we like it.

Look NH is not utopia, and while it may be more favorable to libertarian ideals than other places, it does not make it the perfect place to live. You will still pay federal taxes, and businesses are still subject to regulation. We can work to change that from every part of this country.

You can try. But it won't work. It may be next week, it may be a year from now, or 10 years from now, eventually you'll realize that most people don't want freedom. They are like Cypher, they want to live in the Matrix. There's nothing inherently wrong about that, and I don't look down on those people, but it's important for us to recognize that there are significant and irreconcilable differences with the freedom movement and the rest of the country.

Just because we all don't buy into the dream that 20,000 people living in NH is going to create a perfect world, doesn't mean we are all choosing slavery.

May be not. My only point with that comment is that you are a slave. As am I. Even now, I'm choosing slavery, because I'd rather live this life of slavery than stop paying my taxes, defend my home when they come to arrest me, and die in a hail of a not-so-glorious gunfire. The important thing to recognize is that we are slaves, and it's even more important to realize, that we don't have to accept it.

On your other point, if believe that the FSP, as a concept, is not 100% logically sound, then I'd like to ask you why you don't think it would work.

 

[TheTexan]

It's not a fear. It's called "preference," but it's been lost in all the PC garbage that ironically states we should all care about the same things to the same degree... in order to be worthy of being free.

I still dismiss your boob protest preference as being totally silly. You can have your preferences, but the fact that you think this preference is significant enough to mention when talking about the choice between freedom and slavery... that speaks volumes more than anything else you've said.

 

[tbone717]

On your other point, if believe that the FSP, as a concept, is not 100% logically sound, then I'd like to ask you why you don't think it would work.

Because even among people who are libertarian there are varying ideologies. Anacro-capitalists, neo-libertarians, paleo-conservatives, agorists, etc. While we all share common goals with the Federal government, the closer you get to home you'll find differing opinions as to what the role of government is and how much government there should be. Add to the fact that it has taken them 10 years of promotion to get to 13,000 people, and only 1000 have actually made the move. With the rate of progression FSP is currently experiencing, I don't see them reaching 20K anytime soon, and if they do get that many pledges I would think that some of the fervor that people felt for the project 8 or 9 years ago may have worn off - or life circumstances have changed enough that they cannot move.

Like I have said, it is an interesting idea on paper, but the practicality of it is iffy. A more reasonable solution to the problems in this nation is to work to get libertarian-conservatives elected to local, state and federal offices. That plan has been in action for many years now, and we have been making substantial gains. 8 years ago, few of us would have believed that we could produce a candidate that had a realistic chance at winning the nomination. And while that campaign was not successful, at the very least we have advanced our cause, we will gain seats in the House and Senate and we will continue to be a driving force in American politics. All accomplished from the comfort of my own home.

 

[Madison320]

Too cold. Plus it seems to me the federal government is by far the biggest taker of my freedom. It won't make much difference which state I live in, I still have to deal with the fed.

 

[JamesButabi]

Im signed up and in the planning phase. The successes are piling up with just 1000 people. If they ever even get close to the goal there will be drastic changes. This is a viable idea that people should give serious thought to

 

[Keith and stuff]

FSP is an important and useful project, for sure. I'd like to see a smaller community consolidation and would be willing to sign up and participate in said project.

Awesome, unlike other places where people talk about doing this one day (seasteading, paulville) it is already happening in NH. Liberty lovers picked a town in NH where around 1/3 of the voters are already pro-liberty and started moving there. The liberty activists think of creative ways to save money. The are the majority on the planning board. The have seats on other town boards. They estimate that with 25-50 new movers that are decent people and vote, they could start reducing town taxes. With 100 additional movers, they would likely win most of the seats to most of the boards. It is called Grafton, NH.

I agree that there's nothing really special about NH that makes this the only place where this strategy would work. The strategy could actually work anywhere. NH just has a head start with the FSP, but if people wanted to do the same thing but somewhere else, I'd fully support that too.

I must disagree. NH has the most decentralized state government in the US when it comes to taxes. It is easier to get elected as a legislator in NH than any other state as there are 424 of them and they are only paid a salary of $100 per year. NH has the weakest governor in the US. Not only is the governor elected every 2 years but he shares power with an elected 5 member executive council. NH has a town meeting tradition which (along with VT and perhaps ME) is the closest thing to direct Democracy we have in the US. If pro-liberty activists really do concentrate in one small town, they will have a very powerful voice in the town and can easily be the majority of the legislature (in NH towns, the people that bother to shop up at a town meeting are the legislature for the town on issues and spending at town meetings.) Additionally, NH has the least expensive state House races in the US. NH is geographically small compared to most states, which makes meetings easier to attend and has a low population.

 

[tbone717]

Too cold. Plus it seems to me the federal government is by far the biggest taker of my freedom. It won't make much difference which state I live in, I still have to deal with the fed.

Very good point. And while NH has no income tax or sales tax the cost of living is higher there compared to where I currently live. Here is the result from the CNN Money calculator:

If you move from Harrisburg, PA to Manchester, NH....
Groceries will cost: 4%more
Housing will cost: 27%more
Utilities will cost: 12%more
Transportation will cost: 4%less
Healthcare will cost: 16%more

 

[tbone717]

Awesome, unlike other places where people talk about doing this one day (seasteading, paulville) it is already happening in NH. Liberty lovers picked a town in NH where around 1/3 of the voters are already pro-liberty and started moving there. The liberty activists think of creative ways to save money. The are the majority on the planning board. The have seats on other town boards. They estimate that with 25-50 new movers that are decent people and vote, they could start reducing town taxes. With 100 additional movers, they would likely win most of the seats to most of the boards. It is called Grafton, NH..

Keith, what is the quality of like like in Grafton? It is a very small town, and appears to be in the middle of nowhere. Where are all the amenities - concerts, shopping, sports teams, theater, fine dining, etc.

 

[TheTexan]

Because even among people who are libertarian there are varying ideologies. Anacro-capitalists, neo-libertarians, paleo-conservatives, agorists, etc. While we all share common goals with the Federal government, the closer you get to home you'll find differing opinions as to what the role of government is and how much government there should be.

We'd be debating what's the best way to maximize freedom. Our elected leaders are debating which of the many tyrannies is the best.

We don't have to agree on everything. A government is a representation of its people. Because we want liberty, the government [or lack thereof] we'd create would represent that, regardless of whatever form it took.

Add to the fact that it has taken them 10 years of promotion to get to 13,000 people, and only 1000 have actually made the move. With the rate of progression FSP is currently experiencing, I don't see them reaching 20K anytime soon, and if they do get that many pledges I would think that some of the fervor that people felt for the project 8 or 9 years ago may have worn off - or life circumstances have changed enough that they cannot move.

I agree that this movement isn't taking the FSP very seriously. This is a valid criticism of the project. The frustrating thing is that full 100% freedom is just a road trip away, if only a fraction of this movement took the FSP more seriously.

Like I have said, it is an interesting idea on paper, but the practicality of it is iffy. A more reasonable solution to the problems in this nation is to work to get libertarian-conservatives elected to local, state and federal offices.

A government is a representation of the people. You can fiddle around all day long with local and state offices, but as long as the Tyranny Lovers outnumber Freedom Lovers 10 to 1, you will find no freedom.

That plan has been in action for many years now, and we have been making substantial gains. 8 years ago, few of us would have believed that we could produce a candidate that had a realistic chance at winning the nomination. And while that campaign was not successful, at the very least we have advanced our cause, we will gain seats in the House and Senate and we will continue to be a driving force in American politics. All accomplished from the comfort of my own home.

Driving force? No. Speed bump, sure.

I'll guess that 10% of this country truly wants freedom. Maybe more, maybe less. Definitely no more than 20%. You can win an election with 20%. You can even win an election with 10%, if you tried. But you cannot have real change towards freedom when 80% of the country is working against you.

The best you can hope for is to slow down tyranny.

You may say that Dr. Paul had a huge jump in supporters from 2008 to 2012, and you're right, he did. However, that's his ceiling, or very close to it. There may be some stragglers who didn't get a chance to hear his message, but no, for the most part, everyone who voted had a basic understanding of what Dr. Paul stood for, and opposed him. They voted for the exact opposite of liberty.

If we had ran Rand Paul in his place, we may have very well won the nomination. If we had, it would only be because he's younger, more charismatic, or more compromising. Liberty wouldn't have won. Superficial would have won. Even if Rand had won the Presidency, would he have been able to accomplish anything? No. He would have been opposed at every step, likely by his own party.

Simply consider how hard the media, and the Republican party fought to oppose Dr. Paul. Do you think they didn't have a good grasp of Dr. Paul's positions? Hell no, those reporters jobs is politics. They could tell you Dr. Paul's stance on every single issue. Same for most Republican party officials. They know Dr. Paul's stances, but simply disagree with them. Strongly. They pulled out every trick in the book, all because they oppose liberty.

Do you think the news reporters were told to throw Paul under every bus possible, that they received memos from the higher ups to ignore him or discredit him? No way.

Same for the Republican party officials. And the strategy is, "take over the party so they can't do these tricks"... this is the wrong perspective. They should be asking why the Republican party were so vehemently against Paul to begin with, not to try to maneuver the politics in their favor. Even if the movement does successfully take over the Republican party, the nation will just vote Democrat, or create a third party, and that third party would succeed.

This country does not want freedom. There is no reason to force freedom on them, when we have the option to take freedom for ourselves.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Keith, what is the quality of like like in Grafton? It is a very small town, and appears to be in the middle of nowhere. Where are all the amenities - concerts, shopping, sports teams, theater, fine dining, etc.

All that is a 30 - 40 minute drive to Concord.

If you want to walk to Yankee Stadium and the supermarket, Grafton is not for you.

 

[Keith and stuff]

Keith, what is the quality of like like in Grafton? It is a very small town, and appears to be in the middle of nowhere. Where are all the amenities - concerts, shopping, sports teams, theater, fine dining, etc.

It is a hilly rural town 25 to 50 minutes from the center of life in the Upper Vally of NH. I'm speaking of the towns of Lebanon (where the top hospital in NH is) and Hanover (where the top college in NH is.) Lebanon is the major shopping and working area for the Upper Valley of NH and most of central VT. Lebanon has a lot of medical, retail and high tech work and one of the lowest unemployment rates for any metro in the US. There is a free bus that goes from the town next to Grafton to Lebanon several times per day. It is right off of I-91, on I-89 and just over the river in VT there is an Amtrak train that goes from Burlington, VT to DC. 35 to 55 minutes east of Grafton is Concord, NH. Concord is the 3rd largest city in NH, has the capital and is the main center of employment in central NH.

Grafton has 3-5 stores, as far as I know. I think only 2 of them sell food and only one or two are open year round. The main store in Grafton is the 'downtown' gas station, sub shop, pizza shop, convenience store, etc. Grafton is an area where a cop isn't always on duty, there is a volunteer fire department with a Libertarian Party member in charge. In the 1800 hundreds most of the trees were cut down and sheep farming was the big business in town. Now the trees have grown back and most of Grafton is covered with trees. The are just a few churches. One of them is a pro-liberty, non-denominational church.

Feel free to ask me additional questions about Grafton or post them here, http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?board=16.0

 

[Anti Federalist]

This x ∞

I owe ya a rep when get more ammo.

A government is a representation of the people. You can fiddle around all day long with local and state offices, but as long as the Tyranny Lovers outnumber Freedom Lovers 10 to 1, you will find no freedom.

Driving force? No. Speed bump, sure.

I'll guess that 10% of this country truly wants freedom. Maybe more, maybe less. Definitely no more than 20%. You can win an election with 20%. You can even win an election with 10%, if you tried. But you cannot have real change towards freedom when 80% of the country is working against you.

The best you can hope for is to slow down tyranny.

You may say that Dr. Paul had a huge jump in supporters from 2008 to 2012, and you're right, he did. However, that's his ceiling, or very close to it. There may be some stragglers who didn't get a chance to hear his message, but no, for the most part, everyone who voted had a basic understanding of what Dr. Paul stood for, and opposed him. They voted for the exact opposite of liberty.

If we had ran Rand Paul in his place, we may have very well won the nomination. If we had, it would only be because he's younger, more charismatic, or more compromising. Liberty wouldn't have won. Superficial would have won. Even if Rand had won the Presidency, would he have been able to accomplish anything? No. He would have been opposed at every step, likely by his own party.

Simply consider how hard the media, and the Republican party fought to oppose Dr. Paul. Do you think they didn't have a good grasp of Dr. Paul's positions? Hell no, those reporters jobs is politics. They could tell you Dr. Paul's stance on every single issue. Same for most Republican party officials. They know Dr. Paul's stances, but simply disagree with them. Strongly. They pulled out every trick in the book, all because they oppose liberty.

Do you think the news reporters were told to throw Paul under every bus possible, that they received memos from the higher ups to ignore him or discredit him? No way.

Same for the Republican party officials. And the strategy is, "take over the party so they can't do these tricks"... this is the wrong perspective. They should be asking why the Republican party were so vehemently against Paul to begin with, not to try to maneuver the politics in their favor. Even if the movement does successfully take over the Republican party, the nation will just vote Democrat, or create a third party, and that third party would succeed.

This country does not want freedom. There is no reason to force freedom on them, when we have the option to take freedom for ourselves.

 

[TheTexan]

I must disagree. NH has the most decentralized state government in the US when it comes to taxes. It is easier to get elected as a legislator in NH than any other state as there are 424 of them and they are only paid a salary of $100 per year. NH has the weakest governor in the US. Not only is the governor elected every 2 years but he shares power with an elected 5 member executive council. NH has a town meeting tradition which (along with VT and perhaps ME) is the closest thing to direct Democracy we have in the US. If pro-liberty activists really do concentrate in one small town, they will have a very powerful voice in the town and can easily be the majority of the legislature (in NH towns, the people that bother to shop up at a town meeting are the legislature for the town on issues and spending at town meetings.) Additionally, NH has the least expensive state House races in the US. NH is geographically small compared to most states, which makes meetings easier to attend and has a low population.

NH does have some advantages that make it easier to play politics. However you can't have a free state based on politics alone. See above: any government is only a representation of its people.

The people in the state have to want to be free, for the state to be free. Politics can't change the way people think, so it's important to keep that in mind. Though I do suppose, political successes towards liberty could encourage the freedom-haters to leave, and freedom-lovers to join, so there is that I guess.

Politics is nice also because it allows for some kind of legitimacy to the freedom. If you declare secession as an individual, you're either getting shot or going to jail. Do it as a state and you can get away with it. Which is why I think playing politics is useful, in NH, and NH alone.

 

[donnay]

My mother comes up to visit from Texas where she is used to all the little conveniences (grocery store right around the corner and eateries, and Malls 5 minutes away), along with all the inconveniences (nosy neighbors, high crime and noise). Living in a small city has made her impatient and intolerant when she comes to visit. If I ask her if she would like to take a ride, to the grocery store, she always asks, "Are we going to take the scenic route?" My reply is, "There are no other routes to take, it is all scenic in New Hampshire!"