Who is this "we" you speak of?

We will not stand for collectivism!

Isms need context. The word "we" needs context. Referring to the species concerns, with clear context is okay.

When clear association and agreement is within a group, "we" is acceptable.


Consider politicians and their simply referring to us as, "IT", the public.
 
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I keep reading posts that refer to "we" and "us" as if there is some sort of collective here that can be driven or directed by persuasive speech..

I'll read what you write but make no mistake, this inclusive verbiage is a big red flag to me.

There has been a whole lot of this BS going on since Mr. Bundy stood up.

I am just me, I don't speak for you and you damn sure don't speak for me!



Thought I'd reiterate this sentiment due to recent threads...

So true, and when I hear people like Scott Horton make this mistake, I get a little sick.
 
I have pointed this very thing out many times and it bears endless repetition because people are in VERY bad thought- and communications habits. Otherwise highly intelligent people mkde this very mistake. I myself make it on rare occasion, though it is usually due to momentaary laziness than a lack of awareness. But one should also be cognizant of the judicious use of such terms, usually enclosed in quotes. And so long as the terms are given explicit definitions within the context of usage, I see no problem with it, though I remain sorely aware of the hazards that remain.

There is no real "we" in the sense of a homogeneous monobloc for which too many statements may be said to hold universally. This is the same problem as with the common usage of terms such as "state", "government", and so on. Way bad juju because it leads to all manner of grossly false perceptions and thought. But on the whole, people are lazier than shit - lassitude being the 'L' in F.A.I.L., the Four Necessities, and the tyrants are having a field day with it.

It must also be revognized that the tyrant has every advantage of human nature on his side, save one: defiance. The Four Necessities speak to the tendency to entropy in human action. Being children of this universe, there is no reason that entropy should not of necessity apply to us as well, and it does. It is easier to be lazy, to fear, to want, and to be ignorant because it requires less energy. Defeating ignorance requires energy. Overcoming fear requires energy. Working for what one has requires energy. It is easier to want than to do. Tyrants have known this forever and have take immensely successful advantage of it.

Freedom is a state of lower psychological entropy than are serfdom and slavery, and it is the psychological aspects of our existences that are the most powerful in the long run. The unwitting slave is sufficiently content to remain at his toil because it is psychologically less taxing than a state of true freedom, which requires much of his mind. He'd prefer to be body-worn than thought-worn. No idea why this is so, but only that it is.
The principle of least effort is commonly used by linguists to explain why complex words and phrases become simplified over time. There are voluminous examples, but I'll pick "goodbye". This word started its life as a phrase: "God be with ye". Over generations of use and laziness of tongue, it became "goodbye" and its original nuances were (are) lost.
 
Well lets see...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal
http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=2

Plus it is right at the top of this pesky little document, The constitution:
http://www.senate.gov/civics/constitution_item/constitution.htm


So not everything WE is bad.


Aslo,

"We kicked their ass is good" usually....
Your examples only make sense in historical context. The "We" in those documents no longer exists. (one of the many reasons why social contract theory is full of fail, btw)
 
Your examples only make sense in historical context. The "We" in those documents no longer exists. (one of the many reasons why social contract theory is full of fail, btw)

Is the bible a social contract? Does it contain social contracts? Is it full of fail?
 
Your examples only make sense in historical context. The "We" in those documents no longer exists. (one of the many reasons why social contract theory is full of fail, btw)

The reason you are wrong is the same reason this thread exists. The constitution lacked context for its statements of natural law.

"We hold these truths to be self evident" means that the instinctual universiality referred to between them was obvious. The terms and education they had was uniform because the people in that day educated themselves to a much greater degree. This does not negate the principle of agreement it only means that current context must be equated, and it can be easily. It is done here in part, and you can see the same elements trying to sabotage what is naturally stated.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?445586-Only-Sincere-Americans-Accept-The-Root-Purpose-Of-Free-Speech

Here the principles are consolidated I. highly functional strategy which invokes the instincts is proper sequence.

http://algoxy.com/poly/principal_party.html

Today our education suffers many compromises and our populations are quite divided in as many ways because of it. The dumbing down intentionally sabotaged our ability to re assimilate the meanings in term or context that is contemporary. However, when context of instinct is assumed, many peopled educated in science and psychology can agree upon the context intended in 1776 and forward through the establishment of the other founding documents.

The one thing that impairs the functionality of understanding, and not just today, but within a couple of generations of the days of the framing of the contracts, was the fractured series or sequence of conceptual basis.

The DOI of 1776, the constitution of 1787 and the BOR of 1792 need to be considered as one agreement. The powers that were, did not want the BOR and what it stood for. Therefore the inclusion and sequence were sabotaged making the context of the true intent more difficult to discern.

This is why Americans who love the principles and need them for generations to follow, must amend the constitution and REPAIR the sabotage. The primary purpose of the principal party is to do that.
 
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Is the bible a social contract? Does it contain social contracts? Is it full of fail?
It seems that because the Bible does not use the word we, or even imply it as an intent of the author, that it is not a social contract.

It of course could be used as the basis for one because it defines instinctual structures of our mental and spiritual existence. Of course those principles are used in numerous areas of human society for social contract now and in the past.
 
The principle of least effort is commonly used by linguists to explain why complex words and phrases become simplified over time. There are voluminous examples, but I'll pick "goodbye". This word started its life as a phrase: "God be with ye". Over generations of use and laziness of tongue, it became "goodbye" and its original nuances were (are) lost.

Good post and example.

This, equates to cognitive distortion or more specifically generalization.

"complex words and phrases become simplified over time."
 
I don't see the problem when used in the context of our fights for liberty.

We supported Ron Paul

We support and fight for liberty (even if we disagree on philosophy and tactics).

We comprise a liberty movement

Sure the word can be used for manipulative purposes, but the "collectivism" some of you claim is more just conveying a sense of togetherness, focusing on what we agree on, not the parts we disagree on.

You do not have to be a collectivist to realize that identity is a necessary component of group dynamics. Thus if we want to fight collectively for liberty (again, even if our tactics and philosophies differ), then we'd be foolish to act like our individualist spirit is negated by conveying a sense of community.
 
Sure the word can be used for manipulative purposes, but the "collectivism" some of you claim is more just conveying a sense of togetherness, focusing on what we agree on, not the parts we disagree on.

The word "collectivism" is floated around these parts so often it has lost its meaning.
 
Good post and example.

This, equates to cognitive distortion or more specifically generalization.

"complex words and phrases become simplified over time."
Yes, there are several well-understood phenomena like this in linguistic science. Grammaticalization, semantic shift, etc.
 
The word "collectivism" is floated around these parts so often it has lost its meaning.

Yep, pretty much. It should only even be a dirty word when it's a driver of policy that's forced on that collective. Many small towns have a collectivist attitude, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that in itself. It's supposed to occur naturally, not be forced. That's wherein the problem lies.


Also worth adding that "us vs. them" is human nature, so it is an exercise in futility to try to fight it. As long as there is "them" (those who you don't identify with), then there will be an "us" (those that you do).

Of course some will use this tendency as a rhetorical tool to do horrible things like wage war and divide and conquer the population, but the same can be said for any rhetorical method. Rhetoric is as noble as it's speaker, but "us vs. them" is utilized because it already exists. It just has to be fostered and directed.

But again, it is the source of the rhetoric that is the problem, not necessarily the method. There is no issue with utilizing an "us vs them" attitude when we are fighting against a "them" that we should be legitimately challenging. It can only be more productive for "us" to empathize with one another (even when we disagree), than it is to view people here as "them", which would seem to be what TPTB want.
 
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Yep, pretty much. It should only even be a dirty word when it's a driver of policy that's forced on that collective. Many small towns have a collectivist attitude, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that in itself. It's supposed to occur naturally, not be forced. That's wherein the problem lies.

Collectivism ha nothing to do with groups of people generally.
The problem with it has to do with Rights.
Collectivists believe the "group" has Rights, and that the "Rights" of the group supersede the Rights of the individual.
It's the very foundation of Statism. It is the backbone (literally) of fascism, and the seminal tenet of Communism.
Groups don't have Rights.
 
Is the bible a social contract? Does it contain social contracts? Is it full of fail?

Define "social contract". I say this because it must be jargon. If it is not, the question is on its face ridiculous. As has been pointed out here many times, an agreement much meet 6 specific requirements in order for it to become a contract. Absence of any single required characteristic renders the agreement non-contractual and therefore null, void, and absent of any force of law. These include offer, acceptance, capacity, intent, lawfulness, and consideration.

"No" is readily arrived upon, but let's take a close look so we understand why.

Offer: it is possible that there is in fact an offer by some party, perhaps hereinafter referred to as "government", that offers one an invitation to enter into the "social contract". There are problems with this, but let us give Themme the benefit of doubt and just call this one "good".

Acceptance: this one is of a decidedly more difficult cloth. Firstly, in order to accept, I must be aware of an offer to contract. I have personally never once experienced anything in terms of language that would have suggested to my legally untrained mind that an offer had been made. How, then, am I able to accept? Notions such as "implied consent" cut less than zero mustard in this debate. This specific detail also speaks to capacity, but we will address that shortly.

All that notwithstanding, I have made no acceptance. It has been suggested in more than a few places that the fact that I have taken a driver's license and/or other similar such rites, as it were, that these acts constitute acceptance. This notion is, of course, the purest nonsense imaginable for reasons, the details of which we need not here address. Suffice it to say that neither am I aware of any explicit offer, that implicit offers are not valid, and neither have I accepted that to which I have not been made aware as such.

I will add that lack of explicit awareness of an offer removes the element of capacity. More on that to come.

Finally, taken as a pair, offer and acceptance directly and unequivocally imply with utmost vigor and clarity that contracts must be entered into on a basis of wholly non-coerced consent. Any basis other than pure freedom renders an agreement non-contractual, null, void, and absent of any force whatsoever.

Intent: in order for a contract to exist, there must be present on the part of each party the intention of entering into legal relations. This means that each party to the agreement accepts the instruments of enforcement, such as they may apply in the specific case of a given contract. Once again speaking personally, I have never even once held such intent.

Capacity: The parties to a contract must have the mental capacity for understanding that to which they apply their signatures. If I write up an agreement with an old widow wherein I am to immediately receive her entire estate in exchange for the sum of $1 and a good roll in the hay, and she signs it after I'd gotten her good and drunk, or perhaps she was suffering from some form of dementia, no contract exists because at the time of signing her capacity to judge the merits of the deal were not present in sufficient quantity.

Consideration: there MUST be an exchange. I sell you my house for $10. The consideration I receive is $10, and yours is a house. This is perhaps the one element for which "government" can make a minimally plausible argument. In exchange for your obedience ( or what have you ), you get to drive on the roads, have the protection of our fabulous men in blue, and so forth.

Lawfulness: all stipulations in an agreement must be lawful, lest no contract exist in the first place. If every other element is in place, it is still impossible for a contract to exist where you hire your neighbor to kill your wife or help you rob the bank.

Given all this, I can say with utmost confidence that, all else equal, there is absolutely no such thing as "the social contract".

The very concept of "social contract" is repulsive at its core. It is a disgusting notion for any of a large number of reasons. Perhaps worst of all is the outright and bald-faced lie that we consent to it implicitly. This is a notion that leaves me torn between a state of violent disgust and withering anger.

I am a free man. I contract with no society. I am beyond your reach, your ability to cage, beat, or kill me notwithstanding. You can take your social contract nonsense and shove it up your ass. Not you personally, mind you. :)
 
Define "social contract". I say this because it must be jargon. If it is not, the question is on its face ridiculous. As has been pointed out here many times, an agreement much meet 6 specific requirements in order for it to become a contract. Absence of any single required characteristic renders the agreement non-contractual and therefore null, void, and absent of any force of law. These include offer, acceptance, capacity, intent, lawfulness, and consideration.

"No" is readily arrived upon, but let's take a close look so we understand why.

Offer: it is possible that there is in fact an offer by some party, perhaps hereinafter referred to as "government", that offers one an invitation to enter into the "social contract". There are problems with this, but let us give Themme the benefit of doubt and just call this one "good".

Acceptance: this one is of a decidedly more difficult cloth. Firstly, in order to accept, I must be aware of an offer to contract. I have personally never once experienced anything in terms of language that would have suggested to my legally untrained mind that an offer had been made. How, then, am I able to accept? Notions such as "implied consent" cut less than zero mustard in this debate. This specific detail also speaks to capacity, but we will address that shortly.

All that notwithstanding, I have made no acceptance. It has been suggested in more than a few places that the fact that I have taken a driver's license and/or other similar such rites, as it were, that these acts constitute acceptance. This notion is, of course, the purest nonsense imaginable for reasons, the details of which we need not here address. Suffice it to say that neither am I aware of any explicit offer, that implicit offers are not valid, and neither have I accepted that to which I have not been made aware as such.

I will add that lack of explicit awareness of an offer removes the element of capacity. More on that to come.

Finally, taken as a pair, offer and acceptance directly and unequivocally imply with utmost vigor and clarity that contracts must be entered into on a basis of wholly non-coerced consent. Any basis other than pure freedom renders an agreement non-contractual, null, void, and absent of any force whatsoever.

Intent: in order for a contract to exist, there must be present on the part of each party the intention of entering into legal relations. This means that each party to the agreement accepts the instruments of enforcement, such as they may apply in the specific case of a given contract. Once again speaking personally, I have never even once held such intent.

Capacity: The parties to a contract must have the mental capacity for understanding that to which they apply their signatures. If I write up an agreement with an old widow wherein I am to immediately receive her entire estate in exchange for the sum of $1 and a good roll in the hay, and she signs it after I'd gotten her good and drunk, or perhaps she was suffering from some form of dementia, no contract exists because at the time of signing her capacity to judge the merits of the deal were not present in sufficient quantity.

Consideration: there MUST be an exchange. I sell you my house for $10. The consideration I receive is $10, and yours is a house. This is perhaps the one element for which "government" can make a minimally plausible argument. In exchange for your obedience ( or what have you ), you get to drive on the roads, have the protection of our fabulous men in blue, and so forth.

Lawfulness: all stipulations in an agreement must be lawful, lest no contract exist in the first place. If every other element is in place, it is still impossible for a contract to exist where you hire your neighbor to kill your wife or help you rob the bank.

Given all this, I can say with utmost confidence that, all else equal, there is absolutely no such thing as "the social contract".

The very concept of "social contract" is repulsive at its core. It is a disgusting notion for any of a large number of reasons. Perhaps worst of all is the outright and bald-faced lie that we consent to it implicitly. This is a notion that leaves me torn between a state of violent disgust and withering anger.

I am a free man. I contract with no society. I am beyond your reach, your ability to cage, beat, or kill me notwithstanding. You can take your social contract nonsense and shove it up your ass. Not you personally, mind you. :)


Little long winded but nice.
 
Define "social contract". I say this because it must be jargon. If it is not, the question is on its face ridiculous. As has been pointed out here many times, an agreement much meet 6 specific requirements in order for it to become a contract. Absence of any single required characteristic renders the agreement non-contractual and therefore null, void, and absent of any force of law. These include offer, acceptance, capacity, intent, lawfulness, and consideration.

"No" is readily arrived upon, but let's take a close look so we understand why.

Offer: it is possible that there is in fact an offer by some party, perhaps hereinafter referred to as "government", that offers one an invitation to enter into the "social contract". There are problems with this, but let us give Themme the benefit of doubt and just call this one "good".

Acceptance: this one is of a decidedly more difficult cloth. Firstly, in order to accept, I must be aware of an offer to contract. I have personally never once experienced anything in terms of language that would have suggested to my legally untrained mind that an offer had been made. How, then, am I able to accept? Notions such as "implied consent" cut less than zero mustard in this debate. This specific detail also speaks to capacity, but we will address that shortly.

All that notwithstanding, I have made no acceptance. It has been suggested in more than a few places that the fact that I have taken a driver's license and/or other similar such rites, as it were, that these acts constitute acceptance. This notion is, of course, the purest nonsense imaginable for reasons, the details of which we need not here address. Suffice it to say that neither am I aware of any explicit offer, that implicit offers are not valid, and neither have I accepted that to which I have not been made aware as such.

I will add that lack of explicit awareness of an offer removes the element of capacity. More on that to come.

Finally, taken as a pair, offer and acceptance directly and unequivocally imply with utmost vigor and clarity that contracts must be entered into on a basis of wholly non-coerced consent. Any basis other than pure freedom renders an agreement non-contractual, null, void, and absent of any force whatsoever.

Intent: in order for a contract to exist, there must be present on the part of each party the intention of entering into legal relations. This means that each party to the agreement accepts the instruments of enforcement, such as they may apply in the specific case of a given contract. Once again speaking personally, I have never even once held such intent.

Capacity: The parties to a contract must have the mental capacity for understanding that to which they apply their signatures. If I write up an agreement with an old widow wherein I am to immediately receive her entire estate in exchange for the sum of $1 and a good roll in the hay, and she signs it after I'd gotten her good and drunk, or perhaps she was suffering from some form of dementia, no contract exists because at the time of signing her capacity to judge the merits of the deal were not present in sufficient quantity.

Consideration: there MUST be an exchange. I sell you my house for $10. The consideration I receive is $10, and yours is a house. This is perhaps the one element for which "government" can make a minimally plausible argument. In exchange for your obedience ( or what have you ), you get to drive on the roads, have the protection of our fabulous men in blue, and so forth.

Lawfulness: all stipulations in an agreement must be lawful, lest no contract exist in the first place. If every other element is in place, it is still impossible for a contract to exist where you hire your neighbor to kill your wife or help you rob the bank.

Given all this, I can say with utmost confidence that, all else equal, there is absolutely no such thing as "the social contract".

The very concept of "social contract" is repulsive at its core. It is a disgusting notion for any of a large number of reasons. Perhaps worst of all is the outright and bald-faced lie that we consent to it implicitly. This is a notion that leaves me torn between a state of violent disgust and withering anger.

I am a free man. I contract with no society. I am beyond your reach, your ability to cage, beat, or kill me notwithstanding. You can take your social contract nonsense and shove it up your ass. Not you personally, mind you. :)
+rep
 
I guess I should mention that some of the time, when I say "we" I mean me and the other voices in my head... But they're statist assholes most of the time.
 
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