who is african american who is for ron paul?

[TheInvestigatorOfFreedom]

i want to see alot of people in this campaign to post here

 

[LT for the Truth]

I am but why is this an issue?

 

[jmdrake]

I am. More African Americans support Ron Paul than any other republican candidate. But our numbers aren't large enough to make a big impact. I agree with LT. Why is this an issue?

 

[TheInvestigatorOfFreedom]

its just that i thought i was the one. really would I support a candidate with this whole abstract that people are saying that the KKK support Ron Paul-__-. Really i keep on thing and yet in these rumor pages they said KKK support barack obama. I would think think they would support rudy guiliani then any other candidate.

 

[jmdrake]

its just that i thought i was the one. really would I support a candidate with this whole abstract that people are saying that the KKK support Ron Paul-__-. Really i keep on thing and yet in these rumor pages they said KKK support barack obama. I would think think they would support rudy guiliani then any other candidate.

Ah. I see. Well take heart in this. The head of the Austin NAACP came out defended Ron Paul against the racism charges.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2008/011308_not_racist.htm

I take heart in the fact that Ron Paul said blacks are being unfairly targeted by the war on drugs and that people in the inner city are being unfairly treated by the death penalty.

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/special/forums/candidates/paul.html

Regards,

John M. Drake

 

[rockwell]

John, you know where I stand, but he is right that Blacks are suffering from, rather than being unfairly targeted by the drug war. It's an impulse control, endemic poor family structure, low IQ issue rather than people forcing the drugs into their hands and they simply can't resist issue. And don't tell me about poverty, because drugs aren't free.

Funny thing is the libertarian ideology while being the best thing for individuals is the worst thing for groups and Blacks behave more as a group- again we can always argue the cause, but the fact remains that when they vote- as a prime example, they vote as a block rather than as individuals and libertarianism is anthema to their adaptive strategy in American society. If they did support RP, the inevitable outcome would be far less resources, far less access to programs and entitlements and benefits that they currently receive. Of course anyone with half a brain knows that these things really aren't a benefit, they're shackles that tie people to the government tit in perpetuity and leave people hopeless, feeling inadequate and in reality they are the worst kind of racism, the racism of low expectations. As if Blacks were incapable of caring for themselves and their communities without a handout. But try and explain that to someone who gets a free pass at every turn or who feels a sense of entitlement because of their race and you'll hit a roadblock.

Can it be a path to better outcomes? Of course, but to a very select few at least until such time as people learn to stop thinking about race in the old ways- not to imply they shouldn't because it's as important to who we are as our gender or chronological age, but not in terms of these animosities and gripes and grudges that can't be fixed by simply legitimizing antipathies.

You are an exception John, that's why a question like yours get's five responses, two of which are from you and one of which is from a White nationalist.

And FWIW, I have come to tsee you as one of the most insightful and well spoken contributors to this forum. Make of that what you will.

 

[TheInvestigatorOfFreedom]

I mean there is a troublesome because all these problems with these problems. Even though It was a problem because i mean alchohol was banned in the 1900's after the alchohol came back into US they banned drugs(if i understand history). i mean the war on drug is costing money to try to kill the big drugs in america. lets see we think that problems will go away but it doesn't we will still have illegial import of drugs in the united states and the war on poverty is getting a little better.

 

[jmdrake]

John, you know where I stand, but he is right that Blacks are suffering from, rather than being unfairly targeted by the drug war. It's an impulse control, endemic poor family structure, low IQ issue rather than people forcing the drugs into their hands and they simply can't resist issue. And don't tell me about poverty, because drugs aren't free.

It's odd that you say that he's right on the drug issue and then try to discredit his stance on the drug issue. Who's side are you on? Yes drugs aren't free. But crack is cheaper than powered cocaine. Blacks do not use drugs at a higher rate than whites, unless you think Ron Paul doesn't know what he is talking about. But there is a higher conviction rate for blacks and higher imprisonment rate for blacks. And that's best explained by the economics. Crack is 10 times cheaper than powdered cocaine but the penalty for crack has in the past been 5 times higher. It doesn't take someone with a "high IQ" to understand this. Ron Paul understands this. Why do you agree with him?

Funny thing is the libertarian ideology while being the best thing for individuals is the worst thing for groups and Blacks behave more as a group- again we can always argue the cause, but the fact remains that when they vote- as a prime example, they vote as a block rather than as individuals and libertarianism is anthema to their adaptive strategy in American society. If they did support RP, the inevitable outcome would be far less resources, far less access to programs and entitlements and benefits that they currently receive. Of course anyone with half a brain knows that these things really aren't a benefit, they're shackles that tie people to the government tit in perpetuity and leave people hopeless, feeling inadequate and in reality they are the worst kind of racism, the racism of low expectations. As if Blacks were incapable of caring for themselves and their communities without a handout. But try and explain that to someone who gets a free pass at every turn or who feels a sense of entitlement because of their race and you'll hit a roadblock.

Has it ever occurred to you that WHITE welfare would be decreased also? I'm not just talking about food stamps (although whites get a lot of that too). I'm talking about farm subsidies, no bid contracts, corporate bailouts etc. Ron Paul appeals to blacks because he's talking about ending ALL such handouts and NOT just handouts aimed at the poor. I'm not sure why you seem so determined to destroy any black support Ron Paul might receive.

Anyway, read this link by Cal Thomas. It talks about the fact that democrats and republicans have both become addicted to handouts. It speaks against the corporate welfare Mitt Romney had proposed and why Ron Paul is the only real republican running.

http://www.calthomas.com/index.php?news=2158

Can it be a path to better outcomes? Of course, but to a very select few at least until such time as people learn to stop thinking about race in the old ways- not to imply they shouldn't because it's as important to who we are as our gender or chronological age, but not in terms of these animosities and gripes and grudges that can't be fixed by simply legitimizing antipathies.

I think a "new way" to think about race issues is Ron Paul's way. He acknowledges that government (as opposed to "IQ") has caused problems in the black community through a racist drug war among other things. It's not this "blacks are just inferior" crap that I see coming from some quarters. There really is not racial reason why crime in higher in some areas for instance. That was proven by the crime stats YOU provided a while back which showed Louisville is one of the safest cities in the nation by EVERY measure even though it has one of the highest percentages of black residents. The smart thing to do would be to look at Louisville to see what they are doing right, rather than making everything about race.

You are an exception John, that's why a question like yours get's five responses, two of which are from you and one of which is from a White nationalist.

And FWIW, I have come to tsee you as one of the most insightful and well spoken contributors to this forum. Make of that what you will.

Thank you I guess. But you should know that I did NOT ask the question. Two of the responses were from black people other than myself. And I know other blacks on this forum who didn't answer. You should read more carefully in the future.

Regards,

John M. Drake

 

[rockwell]

"It's odd that you say that he's right on the drug issue and then try to discredit his stance on the drug issue."

No, I didn't. He is right on the drug issue, drug laws are an abomination because it punishes people for their weakness, not their criminality and because it allows a huge number of people to evade taxes and because it artificially drives prices higher- thus preventing a free market- there's more, do you need me to ennumerate?

Let's talk about drugs and race, I have no problem with that. Do you honestly believe that both whites and blacks are affected equally by drugs in terms of use and long term social damage in proportion to their percentage of the population? I can point you to the various statistical studies if you like, but I think it's safe to say that you are aware of the far greater usage of illicit drugs in a single racial community. We're not really arguing that point since both Dr Paul as well as yourself have already pointed it out. Blacks suffer disproportionally from drug laws and no, not just crack vs powder. We can argue the why part if you like, but when it comes to voluntary behaviors, I happen to think there's more than adequate data to back up the belief that impulse control factors heavily in drug use. Since drugs affect all human beings in terms of effect- in other words no one is immune to the physiological and psychological effects of opiates or stimulants- you can't use that as some type of defense. It's that some people choose not to indulge while others choose not to abstain. Availability isn't really an issue either, I'd say drugs are a ubiquitous part of the fabric of our culture, what is a problem is a culture that extols or at the very least legitimizes the use of these substances and when I look at "white culture" v "black culture" (which I don't check out that often, but have encountered on occasion- I know who's pumping illicit drug use versus who's eschewing it. Again, we can always argue the underlying causes all you want, but the numbers aren't debateable.

And yes John, I want to end ALL forms of welfare, from WIC and FDIC to farm subsidies and student loans. The government has no business providing anything for anyone other than that which is guaranteed by the Constitution. Perhaps the only concession I'd make is the health and welfare of US military veterans and their survivors who suffered service related injuries/death.

We're in agreement on virtually all of this John, really we are. What you have chosen to ignore is the political REALITY of race as a factor in electoral politics.

Go look at these articles-

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gXjToGnNHp5pOXGvB6BawqOoxAswD8UQEK183

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/jesse_jackson_obama_can_bridge.html

This is clearly about race when we're talking block votes- not based on issues, but on what's best for a particular race of people as a collective group. It's a fundamental reality, it's discussed openly, candidates seek these racial blocks and it's all done out in the open with the EXCEPTION of whites who are expected to transcend their race, for what reason we can also argue, but here it is being extolled as somehow "good" if they ignore their racial interests-

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/02/15/the_diversity_bloc_is_divided/

"Black women have been called traitors if they don't support Obama. The opposite is also true: White women say they've been made to feel racist for not supporting Obama."

How's that for a MSM article? Imagine how something like that resonates with a White person who believes that he or she has racial self interests, knowing that Blacks feel the same way and vote for those interests? Have you ever heard of a black being told they are racist for not choosing a white candidate?

I'll restate my position once more as succinctly as I can.

Human beings who vote for what is best for themselves as individuals are probably the smallest fraction of the voting public in an electorate with universal suffrage. The Founding Father's- the very people who created the system you happen to believe in and support didn't believe in Universal suffrage and limited the vote to a very select portion of the population for just this reason. When you do implement Universal suffrage, you will indeed wind up with numerous squabbling subsets who vote not in personal self interest and certainly not in the self interest of the majority, but for their narrower group identity and it's self interests. It has always and will remain always so. Black voters always vote as a cohesive racial block and the reason so few Blacks support a man like Dr Paul has everything to do with this racial cohesion that exists whether we think it's important or not.

So while you and I who are very unlikely to share many characteristics of our larger group identity, we are both intelligent enough- thus a very distinct minority- to vote for our far more limited self interests at the cost of our greater group identity and it's particular interests.

You also said this-

"There really is not racial reason why crime in higher in some areas for instance."

I don't agree with you on that, but let's look at something that transcends drugs and poverty, specifically, rape.

One cannot "rape" themselves into a better financial situation, nor is rape graded into crack and powder form.

Rape is rape and Blacks commit rapes at a rate 400% higher than Whites. In interracial rape, black on white rape rates are 38:1 If you can explain that rate differential absent race as a motivator I am all ears.

 

[PeacefulHorizons]

I"m glad to see this thread. I am currently having a " debate" with an educated, African-American friend of mine (Muslim also) who supports Barack Obama over Ron Paul, and I don't know what else to say to her!

Some of her comments are that Obama represents change (change from what she sees is a KKK type of AMerica currently, where whites have always been in charge, and where it's based on an Imperfect "constitution" created by our racist founders)
and --
she still believes that Obama is anti-war (despite the info I gave her re his support of cont. war in Afghanistan, supporting invasion of Pakistan, not ruling out military action against Iran -- plus all the info on his website about Bringing the Troops HOme from Iraq, where he means only COMBAT troops of about 20,000 (vs. 157,000 total) and where his own pdf file on his plan for Iraq says troops WILL remain in Iraq.

SO what else is left? She says Ron Paul has had 20 years in Congress -yet so few ever heard of him (eg not making a difference), that he hasn't accomplished anything with legislation (eg eliminating taxes, getting rid of IRS etc.

I know the difference, and have been an avid RP supporter for awhile now, starting with seeing him in Freedom to Fascism a couple years ago.

I've written over & over about the various reasons America NEEDS Ron Paul to help save our country, pointing out his issue with a big federal govt = more govt control, more wars, etc. I've pointed out that Obama is bought & paid for by Special Interests incl AIPAC, the CFR etc.

SHould I just give up? (it's exhausting me...)

ANy opinions/ advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[jmdrake]

"It's odd that you say that he's right on the drug issue and then try to discredit his stance on the drug issue."

No, I didn't. He is right on the drug issue, drug laws are an abomination because it punishes people for their weakness, not their criminality and because it allows a huge number of people to evade taxes and because it artificially drives prices higher- thus preventing a free market- there's more, do you need me to ennumerate?

Let's talk about drugs and race, I have no problem with that. Do you honestly believe that both whites and blacks are affected equally by drugs in terms of use and long term social damage in proportion to their percentage of the population? I can point you to the various statistical studies if you like, but I think it's safe to say that you are aware of the far greater usage of illicit drugs in a single racial community.

*groan* I'll quote the statistics FROM RON PAUL FOR YOU!

For instance, Blacks make up 14 percent of those who use drugs, yet 36 percent of those arrested are Blacks and it ends up that 63 percent of those who finally end up in prison are Blacks. This has to change.

Get it through your THICK skull! ACCORDING TO RON PAUL BLACKS DO NOT USE DRUGS AT A HIGHER RATE THAN WHITES! Blacks make up 14 percent of drug users and THAT IS ABOUT THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACKS AS A PART OF THE U.S. POPULATION!

I've quoted these statistics to you MULTIPLE times! The ONLY reason you get this wrong is that you are so full of hate that you can't think straight!

If you can explain that rate differential absent race as a motivator I am all ears.

Liar. You are only interested in your own world view. I quoted you the stats that showed Louisville KY has lower crime rates than most other cities in the nation (yes that includes rape) even though Louisville is almost 50 percent black. You are really a disgusting individual. Yes I really mean that. I don't care if you "respect" me or not. I don't know how many times I have to give you the truth before you quit coming back with the same BS. I'm tired of playing nice with you jerk. I don't mind you being a racist. I do mind having to repeat myself because you can't be honest with your own statistics. Have a nice life.

Regards,

John M. Drake

 

[jmdrake]

I"m glad to see this thread. I am currently having a " debate" with an educated, African-American friend of mine (Muslim also) who supports Barack Obama over Ron Paul, and I don't know what else to say to her!

.....
SHould I just give up? (it's exhausting me...)

ANy opinions/ advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

Point out to her that Obama approved the "Homegrown terrorism act". Print out the act for her. Show her how it can be made to apply to black Muslims.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/terror/obama_supports_homegrown_terrorism_bill.htm

Point out to her that Obama kept air strikes on the table for Iran.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/281249,CST-NWS-OBAMA03.article

I gave this information to my barber, who is a member of the Nation of Islam. When he heard this (especially the part about Iran) he said he might not be able to vote for Obama. Ironically Obama supporters who are Christian (black or white) are less likely to be swayed by these arguments.

Regards,

John M. Drake

 

[PeacefulHorizons]

Point out to her that Obama approved the "Homegrown terrorism act". Print out the act for her. Show her how it can be made to apply to black Muslims.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/terror/obama_supports_homegrown_terrorism_bill.htm

Point out to her that Obama kept air strikes on the table for Iran.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/281249,CST-NWS-OBAMA03.article

By the way, she is Sunni Muslim like me, not Nation. If that makes a difference from an African-American perspective...

I already gave her a link to that Sun Times article, sure that would sway her... but it didn't! I wasn't sure she would even read the article so I noted in my email that it quotes him saying "military options are not off the table re Iran".

I also provided a link to an ABC News article re Obama saying he supports an invasion into Pakistan.
One of the two links also says he supports continuing war in Afghanistan.

So none of those swayed her, but my saying Obama is NOT anti-war seemed to make her dig in her heels even more! She still believes he is anti-war (!!), saying he was always against the Iraq war before becoming senator etc.
(If his own statements are not "pro-war", I don't know what is!)

She is adamant that Obama, being black, is the only one who can offer change & help with prejudice in America.
She also blames capitalism & the free market for the way things are now (I think she means mostly in terms of racism still being perpetuated).

I'll give it a rest, but in a few days I'll send along the link about the Homegrown Terrorism Act. I think it's very sad that most Americans don't see how very dangerous that Act is! And she may be one of them, unfortunately...

I don't want to be too pushy, like I'm trying to force my opinions on her; I'd rather have her see the facts & be swayed by what Obama really represents.
I keep in mind, also, that there are another 30 people on the group list who may be reading our email exchanges. (One of whom agrees that Ron Paul is the only answer, the rest of the people have been silent...)

Thanks much!

 

[jmdrake]

Well don't feel bad. I wasn't able to convince my own wife to drop Obama for Ron Paul. She agrees with me (grudgingly) that Ron Paul is better on the issues, but somehow she's convinced that Barack will "do the right thing" once elected. She talks about his speeches and how "inspiring" he sounds. I could care less about speeches. I'm all about policy. And yes I've heard the cognative dissonance where people THINK that Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton are "anti war". When I was working the precinct on election day a Hillary supporter (white woman if that matters) said she "liked Ron Paul" but "thought he was a distraction" and "hoped Hillary would find a place for him in her administration." And what about all of the republicans in New Hampshire that said they wanted the Iraq war to end but then turned around and voted for McCain?

Regards,

John M. Drake

 

[rockwell]

*groan* I'll quote the statistics FROM RON PAUL FOR YOU!

For instance, Blacks make up 14 percent of those who use drugs, yet 36 percent of those arrested are Blacks and it ends up that 63 percent of those who finally end up in prison are Blacks. This has to change.

Get it through your THICK skull! ACCORDING TO RON PAUL BLACKS DO NOT USE DRUGS AT A HIGHER RATE THAN WHITES! Blacks make up 14 percent of drug users and THAT IS ABOUT THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACKS AS A PART OF THE U.S. POPULATION!

I've quoted these statistics to you MULTIPLE times! The ONLY reason you get this wrong is that you are so full of hate that you can't think straight!



Liar. You are only interested in your own world view. I quoted you the stats that showed Louisville KY has lower crime rates than most other cities in the nation (yes that includes rape) even though Louisville is almost 50 percent black. You are really a disgusting individual. Yes I really mean that. I don't care if you "respect" me or not. I don't know how many times I have to give you the truth before you quit coming back with the same BS. I'm tired of playing nice with you jerk. I don't mind you being a racist. I do mind having to repeat myself because you can't be honest with your own statistics. Have a nice life.

Regards,

John M. Drake

You sound angry and hateful John. Must be that implse control issue I was addressing earlier.

And the fact that Black males rape at a rate 14 times that of all other males combined is a fact whether you like it or not, go see for yourself, but don't get all bent out of shape about it. Men commit 98% of all rapes and I'm a man, but I wouldn't call someone a liar for pointing it out, nor would I take it personally simply because it isn't a flattering thing to say about men. The truth is what the truth is John, and I already agreed with you about drug laws being wrong, I'm not sure why you're all bent out of shape and keep bringing it up like I defend it, I don't.

 

[PeacefulHorizons]

Well don't feel bad. I wasn't able to convince my own wife to drop Obama for Ron Paul. She agrees with me (grudgingly) that Ron Paul is better on the issues, but somehow she's convinced that Barack will "do the right thing" once elected. She talks about his speeches and how "inspiring" he sounds. I could care less about speeches. I'm all about policy. And yes I've heard the cognative dissonance where people THINK that Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton are "anti war". When I was working the precinct on election day a Hillary supporter (white woman if that matters) said she "liked Ron Paul" but "thought he was a distraction" and "hoped Hillary would find a place for him in her administration." And what about all of the republicans in New Hampshire that said they wanted the Iraq war to end but then turned around and voted for McCain?

Oh, wow that must be hard ... it is so frustrating to see intelligent people who are not quite able to see what's wrong with Obama's policies....There is a reason for the expression "beware the eloquent tongue"; it's hard for people to understand the impact of rhetoric versus ACTIONS.

Re NH voting McCain - did you hear what Ron Paul said about that? They did exit polling & discovered a lot of people voted for McCain because they thought he was ANTI-WAR!! So some of the problem is just helping get voters informed. (I wonder how many still didn't know about Ron Paul? given the media blackout)

What I'm curious about (suppose I might be able to find it on Google, but I'm tired of Googling for now...), is whether Obama (or even Hillary) use the term "anti-war" when referring to themselves/their positions??
(And I have a very liberal friend, who went thru the chaos & protests of the 60s, & who liked Ron Paul -- but said she is voting for Hillary because "we need a woman's perspective" in the White House !! and said Obama would be her next choice)

I found some articles online discussing Obama's connection to the Illuminati, and this friend of mine did make comments about the Founders being Illuminati members (one of the reasons she believes the Constitution is defective & should not be held up as the ideal framework to follow). So if I can find some "credible" sources I will eventually send that along to her too (our primaries are over, so we have time now.)

I wish I had some good articles to give her, from an African-American perspective, about the Constitution being a "good thing" since she thinks it was racist in its inception, and how a return to small federal govt, following the Constitution, and a non-interventionist foreign policy would benefit ALL Americans, including African-Americans.