Who disagrees with Paul that life beings at conception?

"A human zygote is a human being" Try not to bust a gut after reading that bit of nonsense. Does she even know the definitions of the words she is using? A zygote has no brain, no lungs, no heart, and no organ systems. It has nothing that comes close to what defines a human being.

Human being: a person
Person: a self conscious or rational being.

It sure is not a human being by any stretch of the imagination.

"A human zygote is a human being. It is not a "potential" or a "possible" human being."

She just contradicted herself with the next sentence.

"It's an actual human being — with the potential to grow bigger and develop its capacities."
 
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"A human zygote is a human being" Try not to bust a gut after reading that bit of nonsense. Does she even know the definitions of the words she is using? A zygote has no brain, no lungs, no heart, and no organ systems. It has nothing that comes close to what defines a human being.

Human being: a person
Person: a self conscious or rational being.

It sure is not a human being by any stretch of the imagination.

"A human zygote is a human being. It is not a "potential" or a "possible" human being."

She just contradicted herself with the next sentence.

"It's an actual human being — with the potential to grow bigger and develop its capacities."

Guess you like your myths better than scientific fact. You act like there was no cites..or you completely ignored them..that is if you are referring to the link inbo posted. It is as correct a scientific interpretation as any I have read. I have always been a human being from day one. What about you.. What were you prior to being a human being?


Randy
 
No amount of sources will make, "A human zygote is a human being", credible.

"What were you prior to being a human being?" A lump of genetic material stuck inside a bilipid membrane. The same thing you were at some moment in the past.
 
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Guess you like your myths better than scientific fact. You act like there was no cites..or you completely ignored them..that is if you are referring to the link inbo posted. It is as correct a scientific interpretation as any I have read. I have always been a human being from day one. What about you.. What were you prior to being a human being?


Randy
I was soul waiting for a transdimensional vehicle I could reside in on the 3 dimension earth plane.:D

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This is nothing but a wedge issue. Once the dollar takes its final dive the last thing you would care about is abortions.

Where I come from, politics has only 3 issues: Guns, Abortion, and Taxes.

Guns are good because that's how we got free from that damned King of England. Abortion is bad because God says it is. And if you give us any more Taxes... well whaddya think the guns are for?
 
Unanswerable and irrelevant

As far as what the Bible says - "Thou shalt not kill."

The problem with this quote is that it's incomplete: Thou shalt not kill what? It's pretty clear from the context that at the time it was written it meant "Thou shalt not kill fellow tribesmen": anyone who was not a member of the tribe in whose holy book this was written, was fair game. As were slaves, I suppose, as well as females. Nowadays there seems to be a consensus, though I've never actually seen it stated, that it means "Thou shalt not kill a human being" -- though quite a few people who claim to follow this teaching seem to be rather enthusiastic about killing human beings whom, again, they regard as members of other tribes.

Thus the endless argument over abortion in our culture: Is a fetus, or zygote, or whatever other name is applied to the pre-birth being whom most everyone seems to agree will be a human being after birth, human? If yes, then abortion must be prohibited by the commandment quoted above; if no, then it's not a problem. Endless energy, and endless trees and electrons, have been devoted by partisans on both sides to "proving" their preformed, and hardly disinterested, opinions on the matter.

The very title of this now 20+ page thread is an example of the (sometimes deliberate) lack of precision in many discussions of the issue: What is really being asked is "Who disagrees with Paul that human life begins at conception?" In so many of these arguments, what I find most interesting is what is unstated: premises and assumptions.

Here's an alternative look at the subject: When I became formally a Buddhist, I took on the Five Precepts which all Buddhists, lay and monastic, commit to follow. The first of those is commonly stated as "Do not kill." Literally (in the original Pali language) it reads "I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying life." Note that it does not say that the precept applies only to "human life" or any other definable type of life. Just "life".

As for "when life begins" -- or began -- that's one of the questions the Buddha famously refused to answer (along with others like "How big is the universe?"), stating only that the answer is inconceivable to the ordinary human mind. And, he said, it was irrelevant to his work, which was to share and teach the methods he had found which enable one to reduce, prevent and eliminate suffering.

In addition, for a Buddhist the question of "When did life (human or otherwise) begin?" is irrelevant to the First Precept, because it's not about whether or what kind of life is being destroyed, it's about the actor's intention, which determines the character of the act. There is no "sin" in Buddhism, but there is a distinction between what the Buddha called "skillful" and "unskillful" acts: the former tend toward reducing, preventing and eliminating suffering, while the latter tend toward increasing, creating and proliferating suffering -- which is exactly the opposite of what the Buddha, and those who follow his Path, want to accomplish.

While it is true that destroying life, in any form, causes the life destroyed to suffer, this again is not the real point of the Buddha's teaching. If it were, then, like Christians (and even non-Christian members of this culture), Buddhists would be drawn into endless arguments over whether or how much different forms of life are capable of experiencing suffering. For a sincere Buddhist, the Dalai Lama's observation that all creatures have in common the desire to avoid suffering and seek happiness is sufficient.

However, since it is the Buddha's understanding that everything we do comes back to us, one way or another (this is called the Law of Karma), the point of his teaching in the First Precept is this: If we believe we can reduce, prevent, or eliminate our own suffering by destroying life, in any form, we are committing an unskillful act, whose consequences we must eventually experience ourselves. Not because some stern deity will see to it, but as impersonally and inexorably as stepping on a rake and being hit on the forehead by the handle. If you do not wish to suffer, do not cause suffering.

Of course, this view depends on the assumption that destroying life causes suffering. Does it? Well, if I destroy your life, will you experience that as suffering, i.e. an experience you'd rather avoid? Q.E.D.

Having to deal responsibly with the consequences of our actions when we'd rather not is one form of suffering. From the Buddha's point of view, to avoid this "suffering" by destroying life, especially considering that this life was created by our own act, is certainly unskillful. Thus, in nearly all cases, a woman who commits an abortion (or hires it done) is morally no different than a burglar who is caught in the act and kills the witness. "See, I was forced to do it!" doesn't cut it. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

As I wrote above, I do not know of any abortion promoter who was aborted emself. (Though I do know of several abortion survivors who are vocal in their opposition to the practice -- which I find somehow unsurprising.) However, by simple logic, I find the conclusion unavoidable that anyone who commits an abortion, as a deliberate, intended act, must emself experience the consequences -- i.e. be the abortee next time around.

So for me, the issue is simple: just another instance of the Golden Rule. When "human" life begins is not the issue; the issue is whether one is behaving responsibly or not. We may believe we can escape suffering by "externalizing" it onto another creature, but ultimately this is a delusion.
 
Whoever posted this...I agree with RP's position, but I sure don't see what the point of the thread is.

Possibility 1: We are going to change RP's mind. Probability 0.00000000001%.
Possibility 2: We are going to cause friction among the group, and/or convince some people that maybe RP is not their candidate. Probability unknown.
Possibility 3: No minds are changed no one either comes to support RP or leaves.

So the only real possibilities are no change or negative change, at least regarding getting RP elected.
 
it is bad debate skill to argue something over evidence that doesn't exist.

this is the problem with the abortion debate, its an argument over something unproven.

do you think life starts at conception? who cares what you think, how would you know, do you remember? are you a scientist? have you found a foolproof way to tell?

we can't know, and theres no scientific concensus. if you want to argue either the pro life or pro choice side you can't say that life either does or doesn't begin at conception, because its not scientifically proven either way.

i personally, oppose abortion because i don't know when life starts, and id prefer to err on the safe side, and not risk it. but thats an argument that is fair to both sides, it doesn't force anyone to accept an unproven fact.
 
Where I come from, politics has only 3 issues: Guns, Abortion, and Taxes.

Guns are good because that's how we got free from that damned King of England. Abortion is bad because God says it is. And if you give us any more Taxes... well whaddya think the guns are for?

We should make laws based on the bible? Or what god said? Government should be devoid of religion. Laws should be based on reason and not religion. If the laws went the way of the bible than slavery would be legal. http://www.atheistresource.co.uk/jesusandslavery.html
 
No amount of sources will make, "A human zygote is a human being", credible.

"What were you prior to being a human being?" A lump of genetic material stuck inside a bilipid membrane. The same thing you were at some moment in the past.

You may view yourself as swampslime protoplasm. I am a divine being and the moment of conception my spirit chose my mother, due to morphological confluence of the coilings given rise to by the joining of sperm and egg of her and my father to create the separate entity as the best template for me to generate my projection into the 3D Universe via her pregancy, nourishment and subsequent birthing.

Energetically the moment the egg and sperm combine it is a receptacle for a divine soul to enter to give momentum, force and form to the vehicle of life and when that divine being is developed enough to deal with the intensity of the 3D experience it is born to it.

Best Regards
Randy
 
You may view yourself as swampslime protoplasm. I am a divine being and the moment of conception my spirit chose my mother, due to morphological confluence of the coilings given rise to by the joining of sperm and egg of her and my father to create the separate entity as the best template for me to generate my projection into the 3D Universe via her pregancy, nourishment and subsequent birthing.

Energetically the moment the egg and sperm combine it is a receptacle for a divine soul to enter to give momentum, force and form to the vehicle of life and when that divine being is developed enough to deal with the intensity of the 3D experience it is born to it.

Best Regards
Randy
I'm a divine being driving around in that swampslime photoplasm.:D

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I don't disagree with him at all and as for your father - he is entitled to his opinion and may vote for whom he pleases. No candidate can win over ALL the voters. The constitution should be enough. Personally, I would explain it to him this way - each state would have the right, and the opportunity, to decide what is in the best interst of THAT state and that means he would have more of a say in what happens.
 
Funny thing is - once the police state and martial law are in place all the people so worried about gay marriage, abortion and all the other non-issues won't have a choice since the commissariat will tell them what they can and cannot do.

Average Americans are simply mindless cattle chewing their cud, arguing about gay marriage or pro-choice and waiting for slaughter.


I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE IT!!!

Who cares if gays can marry, a few people you don't know and will never meet can have abortions, children recite or don't recite a pledge in a classroom, etc.

None of this shit matters when we don't have jobs, or country is going further into debt, our monetary system is edging towards collapse, our troops are overseas and being killed, etc.
 
There are far more important issues like the falling dollar, debt, deficit, war, and unchecked forth amendment violations. Ron's stance on the issue is a constitutional one. At least he has respect for the 10th amendment.
 
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