Who disagrees with Paul that life beings at conception?

There are a lot of problems that libertarians like myself have with the 14th Amendment.

1. It was not the original intent. If it had been, it would have been in the original Constitution or Bill of Rights.

2. It does not talk about God-given rights, it talks about government-granted "privileges." This turns the concept of liberty as discussed in the Declaration of Independence upside down.

I would recommend you do some research on scholarly critiques of the 14th Amendment. I am completely in favor of the abolition of slavery, but the 14th Amendment is not as simple as that. I would prefer getting rid of the 14th Amendment, and adding a new Amendment which simply says, "Human slavery is prohibited," or something like that.

All of the above notwithstanding, Dr. Paul says that the Federal government does not have the Constitutional authority to create a federal ban on (or regulation of) abortions.

Here the research I did:
Congress Has Power to Prohibit Elective Abortions
Monday, July 23, 2007 3:05 PM



Congress Has Power to Prohibit Elective Abortions
Wednesday, May 09, 2007 8:10 PM


Congress Has Power to Prohibit Elective Abortions


5TH, 9TH AND 14TH AMENDMENTS OF THE CONSTITUTION PROTECT UNBORN LIFE

(2nd Edition [change in title and format only]-Humbly submitted)

1. A Fetus is a Life and a Person

1.1. We start with the proposition that the “fetus” is a life and therefore a person, both biologically and colloquially. I’ll skip the biological for which there is vast material readers can find for themselves. Instead I’ll rest on the colloquial argument: as Ann Coulter once said, no one gives “a fetal shower” or says “My fetus is due next May”, or “My fetus’s tiny legs are kicking my ribs.”

1.2. I have assumed that, despite the claims of some, the 14th Amendment [see below para. 2.9.-2.10. ] is actually valid.

1.3. What then are the federal constitutional provisions that apply to the protection of life?

2. Pertinent Federal Constitutional and Other Provisions

2.1. Article 1, §8, Cl. 1. Federal Legislative Powers: “The Congress shall have Power * * *”

2.2. Article 1, §8, Cl. 17: District of Columbia and Federal Properties: “To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square), as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be for the [building] of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings . . . .”

2.3. Article 4, §3: Federal Territory Power: “The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States . . . .”

2.4. Article 1, §8, Cl. 1 and Cl. 18: Necessary and Proper Laws: [1] “The Congress shall have Power * * * [18] “To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.”

2.5. Article 3, §2: Federal Judicial Power: “The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under . . . the Laws of the United States . . . .”

2.6. Amendment 5: Federal Due Process: “No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law . . . .”

2.7. Amendment 9: Unenumerated Rights: “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

2.8. Declaration of Independence: Rights to Life, Liberty, and Property; Government’s Duties to Secure Those Rights: “. . . We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed . . . .”[1]

2.9. Amendment 14, §1: Protections of persons from unlawful state action. “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

2.10. Amendment 14, §5: Enforcement Power: “The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of [Amendment 14].”

3. Reasoning and Conclusions

A: Federal Locale Cases

3.1. There are two types of cases in which the question of federal power over abortion arises: federal locale cases and state locale cases. Federal locale cases arise from the federal government’s power to legislate for federal enclaves. Because of its exclusive federal legislative power over the District of Columbia, federal properties, and federal territories, congress has power to adopt statutes governing those locales, just as state legislatures have power to enact legislation that is proper under the state’s constitution.

3.2 Those statutes could rightly include one that would prohibit all abortions in those locales except when the mother established that the mother’s life was or would be endangered by the continuation of the pregnancy. In cases of imminent danger to the mother—i.e. cases where any delay in the abortion would likely be fatal—no due process for the infant could rightly be required. The mother’s life exception would be both “necessary” and “proper” because of the mother’s right of self-preservation.[2]

3.3. In non-emergency cases arising in federal enclaves, however, congress’s statute could rightly mandate pre-abortion notice, hearing, and an opportunity to be heard. That is to say, where there was medical doubt about whether the abortion was really necessary, no life-threatening emergency pending, and time permitting, the court could appoint a guardian ad litem both to represent the unborn infant and to ensure there was adequate proof that the intended abortion was really necessary. In all cases where the mother alleged that the pregnancy was life-threatening, the cases would have to be given the top court calendar priority (as with death penalty cases).

3.4. For non-emergency cases in those federal enclaves, congress would be bound to make the legislation comport with the 5th Amendment Due Process Clause (which applies only to the federal government). The 5th says, “No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law . . . .” That command would require a judicial hearing in all non-emergency cases where an abortion was sought; for due process requires notice, a judicial hearing for one whose life, liberty, or property is imperiled, and also a fair opportunity to be heard. [3]

3.5. In non-emergency, federal enclave cases, only federal courts (or perhaps federally-established local courts) would have jurisdiction to hear the cases, because no state would have the territorial jurisdiction to hear them.

3.6. Another ground for establishing a federal enclave abortion restriction law is the concept of equal protection of the laws. Unlike the 14th Amendment, the 5th Amendment does not have an Equal Protection Clause. However, the 9th Amendment (which binds only the federal government) is undergirded by the Declaration of Independence’s proclamations that “all men are created equal” and “to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men”. Those provisions in effect supply federal equal protection guarantee; and that guarantee would also constitute a foundation for a federal enclave abortion restriction statute.

B. State Locale Cases

3.7. In state locale cases, we have a different set of constitutional rules, but the same result—Congress can restrict the states from enacting laws allowing elective or medically unnecessary abortions on two grounds.

3.8. First via the 14th Amendment Due Process Clause (applicable only to states). The 14th says in part, “[N]or shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; and goes on to give congress power to “enforce” those provisions. Therefore Congress has the power (and maybe the constitutional duty) to enact due process protections for the unborn, measures that would override any and all state laws that permit elective abortions in non-life threatening cases.

3.9. As a matter of enforcing 14th Amendment due process requirements, congress could rightly enact the type of restricting statute referred to in Para. 1 above, except that here the federal courts and the state courts would have, as a matter of constitutional law, a concurrent jurisdiction; for state courts appear to have concurrent jurisdiction over “Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under . . . the Laws of the United States . . . .”

3.10. Note that in state situs cases, there is another 14th Amendment ground upon which a federal abortion restriction could stand: “[no state may] deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

3.11. How does 14th ‘s Equal Protection Clause fit in with the other Amendment 14, §1 provisions? The citizenship clause was designed to give natural born and naturalized persons state and U.S. citizenship; the Privileges and Immunities clause to put all U.S. citizens, including newly-citizenized blacks, within a state on equal footing with the other citizens of that state in order to prevent legislative discriminations and to prevent 2nd class citizenship; and the Due Process Clause to insure that all persons, citizens or not, were afforded notice and an opportunity to be heard in judicial proceedings against them.

3.12. Conventional wisdom seems to be that the Equal Protection Clause is a guarantee both against discriminatory legislation and discriminatory administration or application of law; and legions of cases have used equal protection to strike down discriminatory legislation.[4] However, that “wisdom” is misguided, for it ignores the word “protection”, makes the Privileges and Immunities clause redundant, and disregards the contextual backdrop of the 14th Amendment. The word “protection” and the history of enactment show that equal protection was designed not to get at discriminatory legislation in matters of civil rights (that was the job of privileges and immunities), but only at discriminatory enforcement, administration, or application of existing law.[5]

3.13. At the time the 14th was adopted, blacks were being regularly brutalized by gangs of thugs and killed by lynch mobs. Their properties were being destroyed. The “abysmal failure of the South to protect blacks” was an American disgrace that needed to be quickly remedied.[6] The remedy the framers devised was the Equal Protection Clause, which by its terms required states to protect blacks by enforcing laws against mayhem, murder, and so on.

3.14. Professor Raoul Berger makes the point well:

What then is the substantive content of the words "equal protection of the laws"? The almost exclusive focus on "equal" has obscured the significance of the word "protection." Yet it is "protection" that is the subject of discourse; "equal" is the modifier. Whatever "protection" is furnished must be "equal." What, it needs to be asked, was to be protected? The abysmal failure of the South to protect the "person and property" of blacks against violence and murder, to safeguard the means whereby they could exist, furnishes the answer. That approach can rescue analysis from treating the word "equal" as if it were a crystal ball. "Protection," if given, must be impartial.[7]

3.15. That conclusion is not only supported by the word “protection” and by the context, but also by the fact that the privileges or immunities clause[8] was the “legislative equality clause”, the clause by which legislative discrimination against resident blacks and migrating blacks was prohibited. The problem equal protection addressed was how to guarantee that every person, citizen or otherwise, within a state was entitled to the same law enforcement protection, and the immediate effect was that blacks could legally insist, for example, on the same police protection as whites.

3.16. The same rationale applies to unborn persons: state law enforcement must guarantee the same police protection to unborn babies as it does for all other persons.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Found in the United States Statutes at Large, p.1 @ http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=001/llsl001.db&recNum=124


[2] I realize that the unborn child also has rights of self-preservation (through a proxy), but I’ll skip that issue for now.

[3] “The fundamental requiste of due process of law is the opportunity to be heard. Louisville & N. R. Co. v. Schmidt, 177 U.S. 230, 236, 44 S. L. ed. 747, 750, 20 Sup. Ct. Rep. 620; Simon v. Craft, 182 U.S. 427, 436, 45 S. L. ed. 1165, 1170, 21 Sup. Ct. Rep. 836. And it is to this end, of course, that summons or equivalent notice is employed.” Grannis v. Ordean, 234 U.S. 385, 394 (1914) @ http://supreme.justia.com/us/234/385/case.html



[4] E.g.: Shapiro v. Thompson, 394 U.S. 618 (1969) (welfare residency requirements); Mississippi University for Women v. Hogan, 458 U.S. 718 (1982) (gender segregation in schools); Califano v. Goldfarb, 430 U.S. 199 (1977) (discrimination in social security benefits for women); Phyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982) (statute barring children of illegal aliens from public schools).

[5] See, for example, Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356 (1886) (unequal administration of law).

[6] Berger, The Fourteenth Amendment and the Bill of Rights, p. 123. Senator Wilson stated, "Thousands and tens of thousands of harmless black men . . . have been wronged and outraged by violence, and hundreds upon hundreds have been murdered." Id. at 111.

[7] The Fourteenth Amendment and the Bill of Rights, pp. 122-123.
 
If anything, Ron Paul GAINED supporters because of his strident Pro-Life stance. I know that many libertarians and supporters of Ron Paul are Pro-Choice, but keep in mind, we are trying to get him nominated as a REPUBLICAN. Emphasizing his Pro-Lifeness will help Ron Paul with a majority of Republicans.

To the point, I think the abortion issue is very important. The main point is "What is it?" If there is any question, we don't kill it, because life is worthy of preserving. If it is not alive, then there is no debating it as there is no harm in killing something that isn't alive.
 
I disagree with him but it's not a big issue for me. I feel that he'll make the morning after pill and plan B more available so abortion isn't really necessary in my view... unless the mother’s life is at risk of course.

Something that not a lot of women know is that a "morning after pill" of sorts has long been available. Taking a double or triple dose of regular ol' birth control pills the day after has a remarkably impressive effectiveness rate. But because women aren't supposed to have sex, the clinics and doctors were forbidden from discussing that with patients.

I think that letting a pharma company come out with a product that only does what other products can already do is just a scam. (Imagine that.)

I hate abortion arguments. Banning abortion is just as stupid as making drugs illegal. The bottom line is that women who want to have abortions are going to have abortions. Rich women can go out of the country, poor women get stuck in back alley dirty clinics. Yes it's ugly, and I wish that the world was emotionally mature enough to truly to embrace all life, but people, largely the Christian right, all too often reduce pregnancy to some bizarre penance for having sex. That's the very condescending attitude that drives thousands of women to the point of shame, embarassment, and pregnancy termination.

Yes, I'm pro-choice and I don't give a fff about when life begins. But I also think that there is no Constitutional right to an abortion.

It's my understanding that the whole RvW thing was decided as a privacy issue, with the nature of doctor/patient confidentiality being the key. With the new healthcare database looming, that argument will become a moot point.
 
Last edited:
Doesn't matter what his view is on abortion. Doesn't matter what his view is on jaywalking or drugs or rape. Because he knows those things aren't to be handled at the federal level.

You can go duke it out in your state legislature as to whether rape should be legalized or not. Or jaywalking, or whatever your criminal code issue is today.
 
I agree that life begins at conception but I also am pro-choice. I think it's basically invasive and impractical to actually enforce anti-abortion laws so I'm against them for that primary reason.

But in terms of priority, the abortion issue barely cracks the top 10 in terms of things that are important to me.
 
that logic, taken to it's extreme, argues that forcing all other citizens of your state to abide by your rules is wrong too, and that individuals should decide themselves, which effectively allows abortion. My argument, and i believe this to be the only legally irrefutable argument, is that abortion cases should be treated the same way that any other potential murder case is resolved. And that is by the state legislature, courts, and police, with the federal government only stepping in to loosely enforce the confusing fourteenth amendment

You can swing your fist to the extent that you don't hit my nose. There is disagreement over whether a fetus has a nose. The courts seem to think that is the case when a fetus is harmed or killed outside of abortion. Again, this is just something every state is going to have to decide.

California may decide it will allow abortion up to the age of five. That's their prerogative, as repugnant as most would find that. Iowa could, on the other hand, outlaw birth control. These are the extremes and neither scenario is likely, but those terms would be up to the voters in those states. You can move if you don't like it.
 
Last edited:
I've read all this, but still don't have a good feel for it...at least in terms of how to talk to people about it.

I'm so used to discussing politics with big L-Libertarians...abortion is really a non-issue for us. The liberty to have or not have an abortion. The liberty to have a trial by jury, letting the jury determine guilt or innocence with regard to a fetus. These are the issues. You rarely, if at all hear about a (L) candidate discussing their own abortion issues.

Of course, Ron's an (R), so it has to be discussed...but don't you see that many people 'don't get it', when you explain that it's an issue for the states. They act like the president is a dictator and can determine what we can and cannot do....as if there weren't a couple of other branches of government out there. Is there a better way to say it other than: "RP is pro-life, but believes that the people should decide what they want in place at a local level"?
 
two things. It doesn't matter what RP's personal abortion beliefs are, he only wants to stop funding abortion and thinks its a state issue on its legality.

and you can only agree or disagree if you have seen both sides, join a pro life and a pro choice meetup or activist group and listen to both sides before you decide what you believe or stand for....

the only worse thing than single issue voting is voting without being informed of all sides and aspects
 
Doesn't matter what his view is on abortion. Doesn't matter what his view is on jaywalking or drugs or rape. Because he knows those things aren't to be handled at the federal level.

Okay, Dr. Paul is an ob/gyn, what do you think his personal feelings toward abortion would be?

But it does not matter what his views are on this issue. You are unnecessarily creating division among the Revolutionary ranks. Being divided will only result in our being conquered:( .

We must remain united by continuing to rally behind Ron Paul's national message for freedom, prosperity and peace!
 
I have to add this - Dr. Paul's personal views on abortion are all well and good and I am inclined to agree with him for the most part - however, assuming Dr. Paul was able to win the GOP nomination, the last thing on earth we need him running as is the "pro-life" candidate. I realize he believes the feds have no business dealing with this issue and Roe vs. Wade should be over turned, but if that is the centerpiece of his campaign he is doomed from the start. The fact is most Americans DO believe in "the right to choose" and we don't want this campaign to be about hot button issues - we will lose that way certainly. Keep the message and liberty and taxes and individual responsibility and corporate welfare and shrinking government - that is the stuff that appeals to those on the right as well as on the left. He can not paint himself into a corner with the abortion stuff.
 
Personally, I think that "when does life begin?" is asking the wrong question. As other posters have noted, sperm are alive, yet trillions of them die and nobody sheds a tear.

I think the question we should be asking is: Can the fetus feel pain or not?

If it can *feel* itself being torn apart, then that to me, is an inhumane act, and a murder.

Scientists can probably tell us when the brain is capable of feeling pain. However, the easiest line to draw is before/after the brain starts producing detectable brainwaves.

I would be more comfortable with Dr. Paul's position if it was based on this type of rationale, rather than conception, which is just 2 cells getting together.

Agree? Disagree?
 
The fact is most Americans DO believe in "the right to choose" and we don't want this campaign to be about hot button issues - we will lose that way certainly.


That is not a fact. We have never had a national vote on the issue. That is actually part of the reason it is such a hot button issue in this country.

However, I agree we shouldn't make this a big issue in our campaign.
 
I'm pro-choice but agree that life begins at conception.

I think there's good reason not to consider killing a fetus to be murder, at least by secular reasoning.

If we analyze why all successful civilizations have shunned the killing of innocents, I think the only secular conclusion we can draw is that knowledge of the possibility of being assassinated out of the blue, or having a loved one assassinated out of the blue, leads individuals to take such extreme precautions that they cannot contribute fully to a productive society. Essentially, transaction costs go through the roof in civilizations where the killing of innocents is permissable.

In other words, people change their behavior given the prospect of murder.

Since a fetus can't alter it's behavior to reduce its contribution to civilization, and since the only bond a fetus can have formed is with its parents, civilization has no vital interest in respecting its rights if the parents want to abandon it.

Having said that, I'm fine with Dr. Paul's stance on overturning Roe v. Wade as we should not pick and choose which powers not delegated to it by the Constitution the federal government gets to keep.
 
Okay, Dr. Paul is an ob/gyn, what do you think his personal feelings toward abortion would be?

Most abortion doctors are Gynecologists.

Rgardless, the issue for me is shoving it back into the spotlight. If we need a COnstitutional Amendment to protect women's rights to medical care, then let's do it. That way we can quit worrying about how long the current treaty will hold.
 
I do. How do you think the abortion issue will affect support for Paul's campaign? My dad, for example, likes all of Paul's financial policies, but will not vote for him because of his views on abortion.

Ron Paul's thoughts on the matter:
http://www.l4l.org/library/bepro-rp.html

How do you feel that Paul introduced this legislation?:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-776

"SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Sanctity of Life Act of 2005'.

SEC. 2. FINDING AND DECLARATION.

(a) Finding- The Congress finds that present day scientific evidence indicates a significant likelihood that actual human life exists from conception.

(b) Declaration- Upon the basis of this finding, and in the exercise of the powers of the Congress--

(1) the Congress declares that--

(A) human life shall be deemed to exist from conception, without regard to race, sex, age, health, defect, or condition of dependency; and

(B) the term `person' shall include all human life as defined in subparagraph (A); and

(2) the Congress recognizes that each State has the authority to protect lives of unborn children residing in the jurisdiction of that State.

SEC. 3. LIMITATION ON APPELLATE JURISDICTION.

(a) In General- Chapter 81 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new section:

`Sec. 1260. Appellate jurisdiction; limitation

`Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 1253, 1254, and 1257, the Supreme Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of certiorari, or otherwise, any case arising out of any statute, ordinance, rule, regulation, practice, or any part thereof, or arising out of any act interpreting, applying, enforcing, or effecting any statute, ordinance, rule, regulation, or practice, on the grounds that such statute, ordinance, rule, regulation, practice, act, or part thereof--

`(1) protects the rights of human persons between conception and birth; or

`(2) prohibits, limits, or regulates--

`(A) the performance of abortions; or

`(B) the provision of public expense of funds, facilities, personnel, or other assistance for the performance of abortions.'.

(b) Conforming Amendment- The table of sections at the beginning of chapter 81 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new item:

`1260. Appellate jurisdiction; limitation.'."


I happen to agree with him on the fact that life begins at conception. And, if you explain to your father that Ron Paul's position is to return the matter to the states (where it belongs) that there will be states where abortion is perfectly legal and other states where it's not. His bill is nice but won't go anywhere. And, I think the good Dr would tell you - he is not going to pander for a vote. His beliefs are rock solid and THAT is why we support him.
 
Back
Top