Who are the greatest expounders and defenders of liberty?

Who are the greatest expounders and defenders of liberty?


  • Total voters
    75
Alex Jones website www.infowars.com has more web traffic now than politico.com, dailykos.com, and rushlimbaugh.com.

It has 2/3 the traffic of cbsnews.com

www.alexa.com

So??

Typical. Instead of admitting and coming clean you digg the hole you`re in deeper.

You are just full of shit. Rotbard doesn`t have enough of a following for the poll, but you include how many of his followers on the very poll? Jeez....

Just say you don`t like him, don`t bullshit.
 
Rothbard doesn't have ennough of a following to merit being on this list. Most people have never heard of him.

What the fuck are you talking about? Who the fuck follows Grover Cleveland? Your poll phails.


You included people from LRC. Who the fuck do you think influenced them more; Grover Cleveland or Alex Jones? Fail. It's a trick question. The answer is Rothbard. Anyone who follows Woods, DiLorenzo, Lew Rockwell, or Ron Paul, is indirectly influenced by Rothbard and is indirectly a follower of Rothbard.

I see a blatant omission from this poll. Some guy who ran for President in the sixties and inspired every libertarian for 30 years.

Goldwater?
 
What the fuck are you talking about? Who the fuck follows Grover Cleveland? Your poll phails.


You included people from LRC. Who the fuck do you think influenced them more; Grover Cleveland or Alex Jones? Fail. It's a trick question. The answer is Rothbard. Anyone who follows Woods, DiLorenzo, Lew Rockwell, or Ron Paul, is indirectly influenced by Rothbard and is indirectly a follower of Rothbard.



Goldwater?

I'm sorry, the poll only allowed 20 people in it.
 
So??

Typical. Instead of admitting and coming clean you digg the hole you`re in deeper.

You are just full of shit. Rotbard doesn`t have enough of a following for the poll, but you include how many of his followers on the very poll? Jeez....

Just say you don`t like him, don`t bullshit.

I read an article by Rothbard back in the early 1990s, where he suggested that we (the United Stated government) repudiate all the debt.

I thought that was a good idea.

He said that the South never paid back all theri debt after the Civil War, so why should we have to pay back all our today?
 
WOW! Ron Paul, Tommy J, and J.C. topping the list. Jefferson is probably the best example, but Paul has got my heart. He is so honest, fair, reasonable, and principled (Jefferson fudges his own opinions sometimes). I have more man love for that guy than I think I have ever had for anyone. He is a genius in my mind and someone I admire beyond what I previously thought possible.

Goldwater should surely be on there though. Closest victory liberty has had in the 20th century. Despite his more aggressive foreign policy (I see it more as being overly prepared in his case), he definitely deserves a spot with the rest of these guys. No Mises or Rothbard either? Probably better than Socrates and Voltaire.
 
WOW! Ron Paul, Tommy J, and J.C. topping the list. Jefferson is probably the best example, but Paul has got my heart. He is so honest, fair, reasonable, and principled (Jefferson fudges his own opinions sometimes). I have more man love for that guy than I think I have ever had for anyone. He is a genius in my mind and someone I admire beyond what I previously thought possible.

Goldwater should surely be on there though. Closest victory liberty has had in the 20th century. Despite his more aggressive foreign policy (I see it more as being overly prepared in his case), he definitely deserves a spot with the rest of these guys. No Mises or Rothbard either? Probably better than Socrates and Voltaire.

Are you aware that Voltaire had his first best-seller in 1718 and keep printing best-sellers for liberty for 60 years, until he died in 1778.

His collected works fill 104 volumes.

Voltaire is by far the greatest prophet of the Enlightenment. Few in history have had his impact.
 
You need to judge people in the context of their time. For Adam Smith's time, he was a Libertarian, and the most influential economist who has ever lived.

You need to consider the state of economics at the time, which was basically whatever the Kings of each country allowed (mercantilism).

Rothbard fails to grasp that concept in his writings.

Rothbard doesn't have ennough of a following to merit being on this list. Most people have never heard of him.

You didn't read the link did you?

Smith = MARXISTS LOVE HIM AND HOLD HIM UP AS THEIR OWN. LTV mther fcker :eek:
 
You didn't read the link did you?

Smith = MARXISTS LOVE HIM AND HOLD HIM UP AS THEIR OWN. LTV mther fcker :eek:

When Smith wrote, there were no such thing as Marxists.

1776 < 1848

Also, both Smith and Marxists reject monarchies running economies, and organized religion running economies.

Smith made an error regarding pricing, that tends to favor Marxism, but you have to remember that Smith was a pioneer. All pioneers make mistakes.

Smith was the first great economist who promoted the free market.
 
How exactly did you go about calculating who has the bigger audience?

Its not easy, you have to read 1000s of history books to make a fair judgement, which I have done.

You also must distiguish fame in their own time from fame after death.

Most people have an easier time determining who is still famous now than in their own time. But being famous in your own time is more critical in my opinion because once you achieve fame, you have a large audience. Typically, the most creative thinkers in history are those gain a large audience.

Of those on the list who were the most famous in their time, I'd say that Origen of Alexandria (185-254) is number one, the most famous. He was the first famous Christain in history who was known all over the Roman Empire. He was so well regarded that the wife of the Roman Emperor sought him out for personal teaching. This was in time time when Christianity was persecuted.

Origen wrote more books than any other single author in history, about 6000 of them (according to Epiphanius, his enemy), many which still remain. He employed many scribes. He memorized the entire Bible, and wrote multiple books at the same time, much like a chess grandmaster playing games against multiple opponents at once, moving around a circle making one move at a time.

Origen had 8 scribes in a circle. He wrote 8 books at one time, dictating a sentence or paragraph for each scribe for each book as he moved around the circle. He kept this pace up for decades, until the Romans nabbed him and had him tortured.

Origen also was fluent in several languages including Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Syriac, and others. He took different manuscripts of the Bible, and arranged them in parallel columns, 6 to 8, comparing the text by different scribes and in different languages, a gargantuan effort.

In those times, there were not many books. As you can imagine, Origen's books were distributed all over the Roman Empire, flooding the market.

Origen became known as Adamantius, the Man of Steel, and was very popular up until about 400 A.D. when the anti-Liberty, pro-Augustine pro-state forces started to attack Origen in death (even thought they borrowed a large chunk of their stuff from him). Augustine couldn't even read Greek! Then around 550, more anti-Origen forces launched another onslaught against Origen (who had now been dead 300 years).

Frankly, there was a war for liberty raging for 150 years, from the attacks of 400 by Methodius and Augustine, until the Council of Chalcedon in 451, when Justinian clamped down on Origen. Origen's defenders fought vainly for liberty during these times, but then the dark age began.

You won't find any support for the crusades in Origen, but you will in Augustine.

Origen was a man who defended human liberty like no other has done before or since. He promoted the human soul to be free and to think, and to resist government authority. He promoted doctrines that lead to a free society, like mercy. Origen believed that the devil could be saved!

Origen also synthesized Greek philosophy with the Bible, so the ideas of Greek liberty could be learned by Christians.

To get an idea of what he was like, please check out:

Early Opposition to Origen
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd10.html

Origen--Continued
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd11.html

The Eulogists of Origen
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd12.html

Augustine and Origen Contrasted
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd20.html

This is what I mean by fame. Origen was the foremost intellectual in the world, from his time in the early 200s, well into the 500s. He changed world history forever. There has never been a man who ever lived who did what Origen did. We today, are all the better for it.

Even today, the part of Christianity that is good and promotes liberty can be traced back to Origen.

Rothbard is nothing but a pimple on an elephant's ass when come comes to comparing Origen with Rothbard's impact on the history of liberty

PS

Usually, the more famous people get, the less radical they get. Not so with Origen.

Origen said:

"It is not irrational, then, to form associations in opposition to existing laws, if done for the sake of the truth. For as those persons would do well who should enter into a secret association in order to put to death a tyrant who had seized upon the liberties of a state, so Christians also, when tyrannized over by him who is called the devil, and by falsehood, form leagues contrary to the laws of the devil, against his power, and for the safety of those others whom they may succeed in persuading to revolt from a government which is, as it were, "Scythian," and despotic."

Contra Celsus (248 a.d.)
 
So you're saying that Grover Cleveland had a bigger audience than Rothbard AND was a greater expounder and defender of liberty?
 
When Smith wrote, there were no such thing as Marxists.

1776 < 1848

Also, both Smith and Marxists reject monarchies running economies, and organized religion running economies.

Smith made an error regarding pricing, that tends to favor Marxism, but you have to remember that Smith was a pioneer. All pioneers make mistakes.

Smith was the first great economist who promoted the free market.

Not surprisingly you completely misunderstood my point.

Smith wasn't a pioneer. Smith was not the first great economist who promoted the free market.

Mistakes - he made and compounded on, when there right stuff was already available. Turgot.

On the other hand, Marxists, with somewhat more justice, hail Smith as the ultimate inspiration of their own Founding Father, Karl Marx. Indeed, if the average person were asked to name two economists in history whom he has heard of, Smith and Marx would probably be the runaway winners of the poll.

As we have already seen, Smith was scarcely the founder of economic science, a science which existed since the medieval scholastics and, in its modern form, since Richard Cantillon. But what the German economists used to call, in a narrower connection, Das AdamSmithProblem, is much more severe than that. For the problem is not simply that Smith was not the founder of economics.

The problem is that he originated nothing that was true, and that whatever he originated was wrong; that, even in an age that had fewer citations or footnotes than our own, Adam Smith was a shameless plagiarist, acknowledging little or nothing and stealing large chunks, for example, from Cantillon. Far worse was Smith's complete failure to cite or acknowledge his beloved mentor Francis Hutcheson, from whom he derived most of his ideas as well as the organization of his economic and moral philosophy lectures. Smith indeed wrote in a private letter to the University of Glasgow of the 'never-to-be-forgotten Dr. Hutcheson,' but apparently amnesia conveniently struck Adam Smith when it came time to writing the Wealth of Nations for the general public.[ii]


But if Smith had an undue appreciation of the importance of the division of labour, he paradoxically sowed great problems for the future by introducing the chronic modern sociological complaint about specialization that was picked up quickly by Karl Marx and has been advanced to a high art by socialist gripers about 'alienation'.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard104.html

Smith never defended liberty. His "works" helped Marxism and set back 'economics' hundreds of years.
 
So you're saying that Grover Cleveland had a bigger audience than Rothbard AND was a greater expounder and defender of liberty?

Cleveland had a much bigger audience. He was president you know. He was more a a defender becasue he set the record for most bills vetoed. He vetoed more bills than all the presidents precedign him combined. He defended the gold standard, even during the Panic of 1893. He expounded liberty and the Constitution in his veto messages.
 
Not surprisingly you completely misunderstood my point.

Smith wasn't a pioneer. Smith was not the first great economist who promoted the free market.

Mistakes - he made and compounded on, when there right stuff was already available. Turgot.

On the other hand, Marxists, with somewhat more justice, hail Smith as the ultimate inspiration of their own Founding Father, Karl Marx. Indeed, if the average person were asked to name two economists in history whom he has heard of, Smith and Marx would probably be the runaway winners of the poll.

As we have already seen, Smith was scarcely the founder of economic science, a science which existed since the medieval scholastics and, in its modern form, since Richard Cantillon. But what the German economists used to call, in a narrower connection, Das AdamSmithProblem, is much more severe than that. For the problem is not simply that Smith was not the founder of economics.

The problem is that he originated nothing that was true, and that whatever he originated was wrong; that, even in an age that had fewer citations or footnotes than our own, Adam Smith was a shameless plagiarist, acknowledging little or nothing and stealing large chunks, for example, from Cantillon. Far worse was Smith's complete failure to cite or acknowledge his beloved mentor Francis Hutcheson, from whom he derived most of his ideas as well as the organization of his economic and moral philosophy lectures. Smith indeed wrote in a private letter to the University of Glasgow of the 'never-to-be-forgotten Dr. Hutcheson,' but apparently amnesia conveniently struck Adam Smith when it came time to writing the Wealth of Nations for the general public.[ii]



http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard104.html

Smith never defended liberty. His "works" helped Marxism and set back 'economics' hundreds of years.


That's Rothbard's opinion. Rothbard is very loose with the facts, and he stole most of his ideas from Smith anyway. He is no different than Augustine stealing ideas from Origen and then attacking him.

Hutcheson was a great man, but he did not have the impact of Smith.
 
Gotta add Andrew Jackson!...He not only killed the Central Bank...but he PERSONALLY beat up their hired assassin with his walking stick after his revolver misfired!!


Irwin Schiff too (Peter's dada)...he is in prison for his brave fight
 
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