When They Come For Your Guns . . . You Will Turn Them Over

Though I agree that there will be a mixture of groups,, and some communication between. I doubt that any would hold cities..
Not until you control the air space,, Any "civilian population" that was known to give aid would be targeted.
(you need to understand evil)

You would need to protect them by drawing attention away from them.

Controlling air space may actually be easier than people think.

Imagine all the free hackers in the world, at once, trying to disable the world's military satellites? What would our military do without their precious satellites?

They'd be fucked, and the air battle would be considerably easier.

If such a situation were to arise I would hope anonymous would pour all their resources into disabling all the military satellites and hijacking drones.
 
Normally, I would say "Over my dead body" and expect the response to be "Your Terms are Acceptable".

However, I dont own a gun. I dont have a job. Im sponging off my family, feel like shit for it, and have practically lost hope. Do you think that when they come for MY guns, I should ask if I can borrow one from them so I can tell them to go fuck themselves when they want it back?

I believe that as soon as they step within arms reach, you should do your best to take his weapon, and immediately use it on him and any others near by.
You may fail. (but what do you have to lose at that point) However,, you may very well succeed.
The element of surprise is a great advantage.
 
When war against dictator started in my country (ex-Yugoslavia) CIA predicted that dictator will win in 10 days. Communist dictatorship was overthrown. When I saw Libya and CIA predictions on CNN and BBC that Gaddafi will win "soon" I had my doubts. Syria now is following same scenario. Price is high and I dont wish anyone to pay it so you better get involved in politics. Prevent things to go that far. You know what they say:
You better deal with politics or politics will deal with you.
also

politics
poli= many
tics=blood sucking parasites
 
When war against dictator started in my country (ex-Yugoslavia) CIA predicted that dictator will win in 10 days. Communist dictatorship was overthrown. When I saw Libya and CIA predictions on CNN and BBC that Gaddafi will win "soon" I had my doubts. Syria now is following same scenario. Price is high and I dont wish anyone to pay it so you better get involved in politics. Prevent things to go that far. You know what they say:
You better deal with politics or politics will deal with you.
also

politics
poli= many
tics=blood sucking parasites

none of those countries have a 2nd Amendment and an estimated 300,000,000 guns of many sizes and calibers.

Live Free or Die.
 
I'm so pissed off right now, not only is this topic something that I have spent a lot of time thinking about what I would do but also because I just recently saw an excellent video that compared stories of resistance vs stories of compliance and the different results and now I can't find it. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
 
The local police force will turn tail and run when confronted with even a small band of ready and willing riflemen. Not because they are cowards but because they are not trained for it, new military tools not withstanding. They virtually NEVER face aimed rifle fire. They concern me not at all if things really get going.

The armed forces, on the other hand, is a different story all together. A full scale deployment of the US armed forces against the people would be a blood bath indeed. However, I think it is likely that there would be mass desertion with MANY soldiers standing by the people. Hard to say how that would play out.

Will a substantial number of the "cold dead hands" boys submit when the going gets rough? Sure. But it would only take a few percent of America's gun owners resisting to make it a for real civil war.

All of that having been said, I am hoping for a Soviet style collapse where the union breaks up with nary a shot being fired. And the fact that the people are well-armed makes that MORE likely in the USA.


Basically this.

And for the Feds reading along - keep this in mind. When we left active duty, we did not forget how to fight wars, we just preferred not to. Whether we do so again will be your choice, not ours. We currently obey your regulations about automatic weapons, machine guns, destructive devices, explosives, etc, as the price in freedom we pay for being left alone with our semi autos. If you no longer let us keep that bone, we then don't have any incentive to obey any of your rules, do we?

Heretofore, the ROE were set by the guys in the 5 sided rat cage. If your actions require us to once again take the field, we will operate under our ROE, and an oath breaker taken under arms against his fellow citizens will have made a very bad career choice.
 
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When the government tries this we MUST fight and we MUST win. Technology makes this far different from any other similar situation in history. If they succeed the human race may never ever be free again. More than any other time in history, we cannot afford to lose.
 
none of those countries have a 2nd Amendment and an estimated 300,000,000 guns of many sizes and calibers.

Live Free or Die.
Dont be that confident. If worst case scenario happens there will be blood on the streets and lots of it. Your government got most sophisticated military in entire world. Air superiority was/is always biggest problem for "underdogs". With 18,000+ of US military aircrafts (and pilots that they will find or pay) they will easily control mass movements...

Bottom line: All this talk is "interesting" but reality will be completely different and way more brutal than you can imagine. Something that no amount of preparation will prepare you for it.
 
Dont be that confident. If worst case scenario happens there will be blood on the streets and lots of it. Your government got most sophisticated military in entire world. Air superiority was/is always biggest problem for "underdogs". With 18,000+ of US military aircrafts (and pilots that they will find or pay) they will easily control mass movements...

Bottom line: All this talk is "interesting" but reality will be completely different and way more brutal than you can imagine. Something that no amount of preparation will prepare you for it.

AC-130 gunships are frightening but are extremely vulnerable with their slow movement. There are tradeoffs for employing a strategy like that.
 
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Guns are sold constantly from person to person, not all have to be registered. they don't know all the guns I have and they have no way to find out. I'm sure there are many like me.
 
Does anyone know about a video where some guy talks about historical examples of resisting vs complying?
 
Based on my understanding, most of the genuine militia went underground after OKC, fully understanding the ramifications of that event. So the feds are truly dealing with a variable despite all their intel.
 
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."
-- Patrick Henry

I'm so pissed off right now, not only is this topic something that I have spent a lot of time thinking about what I would do but also because I just recently saw an excellent video that compared stories of resistance vs stories of compliance and the different results and now I can't find it. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

How long ago was it? Might it still be in your browser history? I want to see it!
 
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Does anyone know about a video where some guy talks about historical examples of resisting vs complying?

FKING FOUND IT! It wasn't a video but an essay:

http://whitelocust.wordpress.com/2012/01/08/resist-always-resist/

Resist. Always resist.

“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense”……..Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

I do not know the author of the following article but he has a point. Surrender is not an option and this article make a good case for that position.

The Phases of Surrender

The first phase of surrender is failing to be armed, trained and committed to fight. We are prepared to surrender when we are unprepared to resist.

The second phase of surrender is failing to be alert. You must see trouble coming in order to have time to respond. The warning may be less than one second but it will be there and it must be recognized and acted upon immediately.

The Third phase of surrender is giving up your weapons.

The last phase of surrender is up to the monsters who have taken control of your life and perhaps the lives of your loved ones. The last phase of surrender is out of your hands.

Surrender during war

During the American Revolution 12,000 Colonists captured by the British died in captivity on prison ships, while only 8,000 died in battle. Had the 12,000 who surrendered continued to fight many would have survived and they could have done great damage to the British and likely shortened the war.

Civil War prisoners were treated so badly that some 50,000 died in captivity. More Americans have been killed by Americans than by any foreign army in any war. Six hundred eighteen thousand (618,000) Americans died in the Civil War.

As many as 18,000 captured American and Filipino prisoners died or were murdered at the hands of the Japanese during the six days of the “Bataan Death March.” Had most of these soldiers slipped into the jungle and fought as guerrillas they could have tied up elements of the Japanese Army for months or years and perhaps more of them would have survived the war.

Of the Americans who actually reached Japanese prison camps during the war, nearly 50,000 died in captivity. That is more than 10 percent of all the American military deaths in the entire war in both the Pacific and European theaters combined.

In addition to the 50,000 captured Americans who died in Japanese prison camps an additional 20,000 were murdered before reaching a prison camp. If those 70,000 Americans had continued to fight, they could have provided time for the United States to build and maneuver its forces, perhaps shortening the war and saving even more lives. Some of them would have likely survived the war. If they had all died in battle their fate would have been no worse.

During the early stages of the Battle of the Bulge American soldiers were massacred by the German troops who captured them.

During the Vietnam conflict many American Prisoners Of War were tortured daily for years by the Communist North Vietnamese. Many Americans died during the process. Only Officers (Aviators) held in North Vietnam were ever repatriated. Enlisted Americans captured in South Viet Nam were routinely tortured, mutilated and murdered by the Communists. As a combat soldier and knowing my fate should I be captured, I was committed to fighting to the death. I made specific plans to force the enemy to kill me rather than allow myself to be captured.

In recent years, American troops captured by Islamic terrorists groups have virtually all been tortured and murdered in gruesome fashion. If I were fighting in the Middle East, I would make a similar vow and plan to fight to the death. Under no circumstances would I allow myself to be captured by our Islamic enemies.

Death by Government

R.J. Rummel, who wrote the book, “Death by Government” states that prior to the 20th Century; 170 million civilians were murdered by their own governments. Historians tell us that during the 20th Century perhaps as many as 200 million civilians were murdered by their own governments.

Some of the Nations where the mass murder of civilians occurred during the 20th Century include Russia, Ukraine, Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, The Congo, Uganda, Armenia, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Nigeria, Laos, China, Cuba, Manchuria, Iraq, Iran, Biafra, Rwanda and many others. The slaughter of civilians by governments appears to be as common as not.

Most of these slaughters were only made possible by disarming the victims before killing them. Had these people resisted, their fate would have been no worse and perhaps better. Resistance is much more difficult after the government has already taken the means of resistance away from the people. Planned genocide has been the primary reason for weapon confiscation throughout history.

Jews and others who surrendered to the Nazis were murdered in slave labor camps by the millions. Had all the Jews in Europe resisted when the Nazis started rounding them up they could have made the Nazis pay an enormous price for the holocaust. The fact that Hitler confiscated guns in 1936 made resistance far less feasible.

Had the Jews in Germany resisted, the outcome may have been the same but the world would have learned about the holocaust years earlier and may have intervened. Most people would prefer to die fighting and trying to kill their oppressor, than be taken off to a death camp and starved to death or murdered in a gas chamber.

William Ayers, former leader of the Terrorist organization The Weather Underground, and close friend of Barack Obama, told his followers in the Weather Underground, “When we (Communist Revolutionaries) take over the United States, we will have to kill 25 million Americans.” He was referring to those who would never submit to a Communist takeover. Those who would refuse to deny and reject the Constitution would have to be murdered. If this sounds impossible, remember that Genocide by Government was the leading cause of death in the last Century.

Surrendering to Criminals

The Onion Field Murder in California was a wake up call to Law Enforcement Officers everywhere. On March 9, 1963, two Los Angeles Police Department officers were taken prisoner by two criminals. The Officers submitted to capture and gave up their weapons.
They were driven to an onion field outside of Bakersfield.
One Officer was murdered while the other Officer managed to escape in a hail of gunfire. The surviving Officer suffered serious psychological case, having been unable to save his partner. As a result of this incident, the LAPD policy became, “You will fight no matter how bad things are.” “You will never ever surrender your weapons or yourself to a criminal.”

Consider the Ogden, Utah record store murders. Read the book if you do not know the story. The manner in which the criminals murdered their young victims cannot be described here. Resistance might have been futile. Compliance was definitely and absolutely futile.

The courts in this country have ruled that the police have no legal obligation to protect anyone. Why do Law Enforcement Officials always tell civilians not to resist a criminal, while they tell their Officers to always resist and never surrender? Police administrators fear being sued by a civilian victim who gets hurt resisting. Furthermore, the police, like all government agencies derive their power by fostering dependence.

According to Professor John Lott’s study on the relationship between guns and crime, a victim who resists with a firearm is less likely to be hurt or killed than a victim who cooperates with his attacker. His book is titled “More Guns, Less Crime.”

The Doctor and his family in Connecticut complied and cooperated, meeting every demand of the home invasion robbers to whom they had surrendered. The Doctors wife and daughters were tortured, raped, doused with gasoline and burned alive. How did surrender and cooperation work out for them?

In another home invasion robbery, a kindly couple with 9 “adopted, special needs children,” surrendered to the robbers. The victims opened their safe and did not resist in any way. When the robbers where finished ransacking the home and terrifying the children, they shot both parents in the head several times before leaving. How did surrender and complete cooperation work out for them?

Handing over your life by surrendering to someone who is in the process of committing a violent crime against you is a form of suicide. Some survive but many do not. The monster gets to decide for you.

We have heard brutalized victims say, “The robber said that he would not hurt us if we cooperated.” Why would you believe anything that someone who is committing a crime against you says? He will be lying if he speaks. As we say in law enforcement, “If a criminal’s lips are moving while he is speaking, he is lying.” Criminals by definition are dishonest and should never be trusted or believed.

You have no doubt heard friends say, I would not resist a criminal, after all why would he kill me? This is stupid and naive. In law enforcement, we call these people “Victims by Choice” (VBC). There could be a long list of reasons why a criminal would kill you despite your cooperation.

You may be of a different race, thus a different tribe. Only members of his tribe are actually human in his mind. He may feel hatred toward you because you have more than he does. Gratification from being in a position of total power is reason enough for some.

Criminals are sometimes members of a Satanic Cult who worship death such as the “Night Stalker” in California. Eliminating a potential witness is often cited as a reason to kill a victim. Sometimes criminals simply enjoy causing suffering and death. There are people who are in fact, pure evil. I have heard criminals say, “I killed her just to watch her die.”

A victim who begs for mercy can give his attacker a tremendous feeling of power which many criminals seem to enjoy. You cannot expect mercy from someone who does not know what mercy is.

Resist!

We each have a duty to ourselves, our loved ones, our neighbors, our community, our city, our state and our country to resist criminals. Reasoning with a thug who believes that his failures are because of people just like you is not likely to be helpful. Pleading with a terrorist who has been taught from birth that his salvation depends on murdering people like you is a doomed plan. Resist!

Resist! His gun may not be real. After you are tied up it will not matter. His gun may not be loaded. After you are tied up it will not matter. He may not know how to operate his gun. After you are tied up it will not matter. Resist!

Statistically if you run and your assailant shoots at you he will miss. Statistically if you run and he shoots and hits you, you will not die. Bad guys shooting at the police miss 90 percent of the time. The odds are on your side. Better to die fighting in place than to be tied up, doused with gasoline and burned alive. There are things worse than death. Surrender to a criminal or a terrorist and you will learn what they are. Resist!

If you resist with a commitment to win you may well prevail, especially if you are armed and trained. If you lose it is still better to die fighting in place than to be taken prisoner and have your head cut off with a dull knife while your screams gurgle through your own blood as we have witnessed on numerous videos from the Middle East, brought to us by the “Islamic practitioners of peace.”

Some who have refused to surrender.

History is filled with brave people who refused to surrender. Some of these men and woman have won their battles despite what seemed to be insurmountable odds. Others have gone down fighting and avoided being tortured to death. Some fought to the death to help or save others. Many have fought to the death for an idea or a belief.

When General Santa Ana (also the President of Mexico at the time) ordered 180 “Texacans” to surrender the Alamo, Col. Travis answered with “a cannon shot and a rebel yell.” Eventually General Santa Ana was able to build his troop strength to ten thousand. The Mexicans then swarmed the defenders and killed them all.

The battle of the Alamo delayed the Mexican Army long enough for Sam Houston to build his Texacan Army, which met and defeated the Mexican Army and captured General Santa Ana. General Santa Ana traded Texas for his life and the sacrifices of the Alamo defenders changed history.

Frank Luke was a heroic aviator in WWI. Shot down and wounded he refused to surrender when confronted by a German patrol. He killed 4 German soldiers with his 1911 Pistol before being killed. Luke was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.

When his unit was pinned down by German Machine Guns and all of the Officers and non commissioned officers in his company were killed or wounded, Alvin York never considered surrendering. Instead, he attacked hundreds of German soldiers killing about 25 with his rifle and pistol and then captured 132 others by himself!

Most of the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto (Poland) surrendered to the German Army. They were taken off to death camps and murdered. Between 400 and 1,000 Jews refused to surrender and armed with only a few pistols, revolvers and rifles, they held off the German Army for three months before dying in battle.

During the “Battle of the Bulge,” the 101st Airborne was surrounded by the German Army and ordered to surrender. Faced with overwhelming odds, the Commanding Officer of the 101st sent this reply to the Germans. “Nuts.” The Americans refused to surrender and they stopped the German advance. Most of the Americans troops survived.

On Sept 2, 2010, 40 armed criminals took over and robbed a train in India. Some of the robbers had guns, others used knives and clubs. When they began to disrobe an 18 year old girl for the purpose of gang raping her, one of the passengers decided to fight. He was a 35 year old retired Gurkha soldier. He drew his Khukasri knife and attacked the 40 robbers. He killed three of the robbers and wounded 8 more despite his being wounded in this 20 minute fight. The remaining criminals fled for their lives leaving their stolen loot and eleven comrades dead or wounded on the floor of the train. The eight wounded robbers were arrested.

How does one man defeat 40? How does he summon the courage to fight such odds? He utilized all of the Principles of Personal Defense: Alertness, Decisiveness, Aggressiveness, Speed, Coolness, Ruthlessness, and Surprise. He was skilled in the use of his weapon. Most importantly, He refused to be a victim and allow evil to triumph!

If this one inspirational soldier can defeat 40 opponents using his knife, it would seem that we should all be able to defeat a group of armed criminals by using our firearms if we are professionally trained as was this heroic Gurkha soldier.

Final thoughts

How will you respond if you are confronted by evil as some of us have been in the past and some of us will be in the future? If you have not decided ahead of time what you will do, you will likely do nothing. Those who fight back often win and survive. Those who surrender never win and often die a horrible death. Have you made your decision? Remember, no decision is a decision to do nothing.
 
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Based on my understanding, most of the genuine militia went underground after OKC, fully understanding the ramifications of that event. So the feds are truly dealing with a variable despite all their intel.

Same guys who were surprised when Pak went nuclear back in the 90s... who also seem to be surprised every time the Chinese come out with something new - TV portrayals aside, intelligence agencies are mostly staffed by do-nothing careerists whose main business each day is making sure that no matter what happens his or her personal ass is covered.
 
Dont be that confident. If worst case scenario happens there will be blood on the streets and lots of it. Your government got most sophisticated military in entire world. Air superiority was/is always biggest problem for "underdogs". With 18,000+ of US military aircrafts (and pilots that they will find or pay) they will easily control mass movements...

Bottom line: All this talk is "interesting" but reality will be completely different and way more brutal than you can imagine. Something that no amount of preparation will prepare you for it.

understood...i'm not confident at all, but i will do what i can until i die...if...i die.
 
I believe this article underestimates the potential civilian response to a military crack down.
 
It seems to me that the gov't would do everything in their power to avoid out and out civil war, because of the costs involved. Much of the talk in this thread seems to be about what would happen if there were a clear-cut point at which one decides whether to surrender or fight, but I think the difficult part, the part that the gov't will try to avoid making clear, is in deciding where the decision point occurs.

For example, take Anaheim today. Is that yet at a point where citizens should unite in acting out against the gov't? Or is it a relatively small or isolated incident? Why are not huge crowds of citizens refusing to submit to police orders? When the leader of the march was arrested a couple days ago, why did everyone stand there watching him be hauled off instead of rushing the police and taking the man back? Answer: because they DON'T KNOW if they are at the decision point yet, and the gov't will do everything it can to ensure that the average person can't recognize when the decision has to be made. No one wants to have to say that NOW is the time to act, after all, what if they are premature in acting?

If citizens could and would act as one, this would be quite easy, but when there is no coordination, it is easy to tell oneself that we aren't at the point of having to take action. If we would act as one, any injustice could quickly be redressed, but without, the question of prematurity always looms.

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Alternatively, is there a reason that simple civil disobedience would not work? Overwhelm the system with people who simply will not cooperate? Would civil disobedience have worked in Nazi Germany, given the readiness of so many to go along with the extermination program? Would civil disobedience merely give them an excuse to proceed with Agenda 21 plans for population reduction?
 
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