When educating people on Libertarianism, I usually lose them on the Civil Rights Act

There are three main arguments against the Civil Rights Act:
  1. Employers that discriminate based on race, religion, or gender are likely losing good candidates to other businesses that do not practice the same discrimination in hiring.
  2. We give our money to racists and bigots all the time, but because they aren't allowed to discriminate in hiring or patronage we can't tell the difference.
  3. I can keep who ever I want out of my house for any reason, but as soon as I run a business out of my house it becomes illegal. How does it make sense that I give up my right to decide who can step on my property by simply offering goods for sale?
 
It is actually as simple as competition. If businesses don't cater to negroes (I'm all for resurrecting that term, johngr) then there is economic incentive to create your own store that does.

I mean no offense using such word, but since it's a descriptive and non-connotative word, I don't care if anyone takes offense at it. I use "Negro" (the same word used on US census forms and in the name of the racially targeted scholarship fund) in order to distinguish among sub-Saharan Africans and their diaspore, Dravidians and Australoids, the latter two of which are often as "black" as the blackest Africans and as a counterpoint to those who would say or imply that racial difference is a matter of "skin color" alone.
 
By the way, it's still possible to run a business that discriminates on the basis of race. For instance, up until the 1980s the Shoal Creek country club near Birmingham Alabama was whites only. Then Shoal Creek landed the PGA golf tournament. When it came out that no blacks were allowed, groups threatened to boycott the sponsors of the PGA tour. Shoal Creek quickly changed its policy and found a "token" to join. After that the PGA officially changed its rules not to use country clubs that discriminated on the basis of race. (That's an answer to a question of how do you boycott a business that already doesn't allow blacks. You boycott the people who patronize the business).

Can anyone make this clear for me? Are bussiness allowed to decide who they want to serve or not? If they dont, how this club got away with it? and if they do what does the law does exactly and what is wrong with it?
 
Who are these people using the word "negro" in this thread? What is this? Harry Reid forums?
 
Compare it to something they can relate too. The Local Country club implement the same bias, if you aren't rich or come from a certain family, your not allowed to play on their golf courses, and restaurants. Would you be happier if someone forced them to allow you in? Or would you rather play on golf courses that already accept you for who you are?

I would also say that, if laws were never passed to allow peopel of color into restaurants, the only thing that would happen would be the free market would allow white people to eat at black diners, and therefore the non-white only places would be able to serve everyone which would enable them to serve guests cheaper, and the white only places would probably have to raise prices to stay in business and compete with the other places, and therefore most would simply go out of business becuase most White people can't afford to pay a premium for their burger.

That's the beauty of the free market. The more people you can serve, the more business you can do, which will drive down your costs, and have the better edge in business.
 
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=DT2YET6sg5I&client=mv-google

A company which discriminates will sink itself in a true free market. While company A only hires whites, companyB does not discriminate. Company A's talent pool will consist of only whites, while company B will draw talent from the white pool PLUS the black pool PLUS the Asian pool PLUS the Hispanic pool...you get the point. Understanding that race has no bearing on intelligence and talent, hiring is a numbers game, the more numbers you have to draw from the more premium talent you will get. We can clearly see that in a market free from government regulation discrimination will simply not be feasible or profitable. This doesn't begin to cover the unintended consequences. For more see th BS video above on government disability legislation.
 
The buses, if operated by the government, shouldn't be allowed to discriminate. But the private businesses should be allowed to.
 
My question is, what would have been the libertarian solution?>

Oh man I wish I could remember his name. Tom Woods (in an online video somewhere?) talked about a Black gentlemen who did all kinds of awesome fancy things such as making a business and products.

Setting the stage so in the eyes of the government everyone is treated equal under the law is fine. However couldn't an argument be made that had segregation and desegregation not been forcefully imposed the black people would be much better off? Let me see if I can make that argument.

Instead of using the heavy hand of government to force equality in society what if Blacks used economic means? If blacks had joined together instead to make competing businesses and competing communities and prove they were equal if not better than whites would that not have had a greater impact on the economic and educational well being of blacks? Blacks could have created grocery stores, banks, schools, mechanic shops, you name it. Then they could have hired blacks to run them. Then other blacks would make sure to use the products and services offered in these places. And you know they would try so hard to show their strengths compared to whites. So from all the economic activity blacks would have wealth, education, and status proving to the white man they are just as capable. When this is finally proven whites would look at blacks differently. As the Blacks and Whites mingled together more and more racial tensions would become practically non existent. There wouldn't be nearly as many poor blacks with less education, problems finding jobs and less would be in jail for crimes.
 
Discrimination as to who can use your services, or buy your goods, should be your right as a business owner. Of course, as others have pointed out, you're going to be shooting yourself in the foot if you're too heavy-handed about it. Forcing people to mingle based on some sense of "promoting diversity" is one of the silliest things that has ever happened to the world. If we are to promote diversity, then why stop at color (or, well, perceived color... there's a big group of "tan people" that the world seems to forget about in its rush to mend fences between "blacks" and "whites"...)?

Why not make sure that schools are representative of gender ratios in the community? In fact, why not make the classes in those schools precisely color/gender/religion/height/weight representative? Diversity was touted to help us learn from one another, so the argument could be made that inclusion of both obese and non-obese students in every class would help the obese ones learn healthy habits, and the non-obese ones might learn to be more sensitive to people "of size" :rolleyes:

Doesn't it get silly, the further you go into it?

Now, the Civil Rights movement did intersect with a lot of violence directed at people based on the color of their skin (or their family's skin, if the two didn't entirely match). This doesn't require new laws, or a new Act. This simply requires that the laws on the books be applied without prejudice. If an assault occurs, it should not matter whether the victim is white or black, nor if the guilty party is white or black. The law's already there.

I would have supported the Civil Rights Act if that had been the scope of the entire thing (a symbolic piece of legislation ensuring that the existing laws apply to everyone). To that effect, Title I. is okay. Title II. is silly, though it allowed for exemptions for "private" businesses (which is probably how that golf course mentioned earlier got by). Title III. makes some sense in that, without it, I'm not sure whether or not someone could be brought up on charges and then denied access to the courtroom where their case was being heard, or similar things along those lines. Title IV. had a place at the time... I guess... but I don't see the point of it. I have been to schools with extremely varied levels of "diversity" and the real differences were seen when you factored in economics and parental involvement, not skin color.

Title V. is just bad, because the Government doesn't need to grow. Title VI. makes sense in that, if you're going to accept money from a source, the source has the right to put restrictions and conditions on it, in my opinion. If you're going to accept Government money, then they can wag their finger at you and tell you not to discriminate. The obvious solution is to just not accept Government money.

Title VII. is the most insulting on various levels. First off, as discussed, an employer should be able to do what they like with very little restriction. If that means they want to hire only smooth-skinned black girls with big boobs and open a place called "The Chocolate Bar" or something, they should be able to. The second reason Title VII. is stupid is that when it was originally enacted, the Federal Government was exempt! Lastly, this section created lots of departments to police employers and, again, extra Government sucks.

Title VIII.... I don't remember learning much about this one. Anything that compiles data for the Government, though, always makes me paranoid.

Title IX. seems redundant, and outdated. It seems like it could be abused to high heaven nowadays.

Title X., again, seems redundant as "private" organizations (even though I dislike them) sprang up to serve this role of representation anyhow.

* * *

Overall, this doesn't strike me as a great piece of legislation. It's just another thing people are taught to love, even though it's a long list of things to treat symptoms rather than the disease. Make people equal under the law, and all the rest of it really becomes redundant at best... dangerous at worst.
 
This is one of the places theory meets reality.

Jim Crow laws had to be eliminated and should have been as an affront to the liberty of some of our citizens. The main problem as I see it (I was a kid as this was ending) is the use of state and local government as a tool of oppression against ethnic groups. The first step to freedom is equal protection of the laws. Basically you could start with disarming blacks so they could not defend themselves from violence which would seldom be prosecuted, and the situation is sure to go bad in all other areas.

The difficulty is that you can not force people to be good or like other people. The Civil Rights Act went too far in not limiting itself to protecting the basic rights of all citizens from government oppression.

When someone else does not like you, applying force to try to change an attitude seldom works, whether it be the deep south or Iraq.
 
The Jim Crow laws were a response from an angry south against blacks. The same blacks, that once they had voting rights, were bought out by the northern republicans by those politicians promising to take from the white man and give to the black man in the south. This was explained in Thomas DiLorenzo's book The Real Lincoln. While it certainly would not have been peachy race relations in the south, not buying the black man's vote with the white man's property would have certainly helped a lot.
 
The Jim Crow laws were a response from an angry south against blacks. The same blacks, that once they had voting rights, were bought out by the northern republicans by those politicians promising to take from the white man and give to the black man in the south. This was explained in Thomas DiLorenzo's book The Real Lincoln. While it certainly would not have been peachy race relations in the south, not buying the black man's vote with the white man's property would have certainly helped a lot.

Because God forbid slaves get any compensation for a lifetime of uncompensated forced labor :rolleyes:
 
robbing middle and poor whites who never owned slaves was just another injustice.......

Meh. Sounds like more crap trying to justify Jim Crow.

I would never be for taking property from non-slave owners, but slave-owners? I would have no problem with.
 
Oh man I wish I could remember his name. Tom Woods (in an online video somewhere?) talked about a Black gentlemen who did all kinds of awesome fancy things such as making a business and products.

Setting the stage so in the eyes of the government everyone is treated equal under the law is fine. However couldn't an argument be made that had segregation and desegregation not been forcefully imposed the black people would be much better off? Let me see if I can make that argument.

Instead of using the heavy hand of government to force equality in society what if Blacks used economic means? If blacks had joined together instead to make competing businesses and competing communities and prove they were equal if not better than whites would that not have had a greater impact on the economic and educational well being of blacks? Blacks could have created grocery stores, banks, schools, mechanic shops, you name it. Then they could have hired blacks to run them. Then other blacks would make sure to use the products and services offered in these places. And you know they would try so hard to show their strengths compared to whites. So from all the economic activity blacks would have wealth, education, and status proving to the white man they are just as capable. When this is finally proven whites would look at blacks differently. As the Blacks and Whites mingled together more and more racial tensions would become practically non existent. There wouldn't be nearly as many poor blacks with less education, problems finding jobs and less would be in jail for crimes.

Yeah, this was what Booker T Washington was striving for. The black liberals and elites ridiculed him for it.
 
Because God forbid slaves get any compensation for a lifetime of uncompensated forced labor :rolleyes:

I'm not justifying them, I'm just providing perspective as to why they came about. Also, I would not lament the plantations being taken away from slave owners and being parceled out to the slaves as a reparation. That's not what happened though, as usual when it comes to justice, the ones who weren't wealthy enough to buy it got hit with it.
 
Yeah, this was what Booker T Washington was striving for. The black liberals and elites ridiculed him for it.

hmmm I think I was thinking of another guy. I'll look around for a few minutes to see if I can find it.

I FOUND IT! S. B. Fuller is the name. It wasn't a video I heard about him in. He was question 32 "Who Was S. B. Fuller?" in Thomas Woods book I have sitting here on my desk titled "33 questions About American History You're Not Supposed to Ask"

Here is an exert from the book. Page 248
In his controversial speech Fuller argued that even if blacks did suffer under legal disabilities, there was much they could do to improve their condition here and now. Fuller did not claim that blacks faced no obstacles; he was all too aware of them. His point was that blacks themselves consittuted a market, and that the black entrepreneur could enrich himself, employ his fellow blacks, and build up his community by launching business catering to the black community."
Later on Woods quoted Fuller (same page)
Fuller argued that much of what ailed blacks could be traced to lack of entrepreneurial energy and imagination:

"If the Negro had the amount of initiative, courage, and imagination required, he could control the retail selling in his own community. Since he represents ten percent of the population of America today, he would be able to employ 1,065,000 people. There are 1,788,325 retail establishments in America and yet in New York City, where there are over 1,000,000 Negroes, they do not own over fifteen businesses which employ over ten people."

Woods also mentioned on page 249 that a Half century before Fuller, Booker T. Washington "had said essentially the same thing".
 
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We aren't here to be diverse

Discrimination as to who can use your services, or buy your goods, should be your right as a business owner. Of course, as others have pointed out, you're going to be shooting yourself in the foot if you're too heavy-handed about it. Forcing people to mingle based on some sense of "promoting diversity" is one of the silliest things that has ever happened to the world. If we are to promote diversity, then why stop at color (or, well, perceived color... there's a big group of "tan people" that the world seems to forget about in its rush to mend fences between "blacks" and "whites"...)?

Why not make sure that schools are representative of gender ratios in the community? In fact, why not make the classes in those schools precisely color/gender/religion/height/weight representative? Diversity was touted to help us learn from one another, so the argument could be made that inclusion of both obese and non-obese students in every class would help the obese ones learn healthy habits, and the non-obese ones might learn to be more sensitive to people "of size" :rolleyes:

Doesn't it get silly, the further you go into it?

Now, the Civil Rights movement did intersect with a lot of violence directed at people based on the color of their skin (or their family's skin, if the two didn't entirely match). This doesn't require new laws, or a new Act. This simply requires that the laws on the books be applied without prejudice. If an assault occurs, it should not matter whether the victim is white or black, nor if the guilty party is white or black. The law's already there.

I would have supported the Civil Rights Act if that had been the scope of the entire thing (a symbolic piece of legislation ensuring that the existing laws apply to everyone). To that effect, Title I. is okay. Title II. is silly, though it allowed for exemptions for "private" businesses (which is probably how that golf course mentioned earlier got by). Title III. makes some sense in that, without it, I'm not sure whether or not someone could be brought up on charges and then denied access to the courtroom where their case was being heard, or similar things along those lines. Title IV. had a place at the time... I guess... but I don't see the point of it. I have been to schools with extremely varied levels of "diversity" and the real differences were seen when you factored in economics and parental involvement, not skin color.

Title V. is just bad, because the Government doesn't need to grow. Title VI. makes sense in that, if you're going to accept money from a source, the source has the right to put restrictions and conditions on it, in my opinion. If you're going to accept Government money, then they can wag their finger at you and tell you not to discriminate. The obvious solution is to just not accept Government money.

Title VII. is the most insulting on various levels. First off, as discussed, an employer should be able to do what they like with very little restriction. If that means they want to hire only smooth-skinned black girls with big boobs and open a place called "The Chocolate Bar" or something, they should be able to. The second reason Title VII. is stupid is that when it was originally enacted, the Federal Government was exempt! Lastly, this section created lots of departments to police employers and, again, extra Government sucks.

Title VIII.... I don't remember learning much about this one. Anything that compiles data for the Government, though, always makes me paranoid.

Title IX. seems redundant, and outdated. It seems like it could be abused to high heaven nowadays.

Title X., again, seems redundant as "private" organizations (even though I dislike them) sprang up to serve this role of representation anyhow.

* * *

Overall, this doesn't strike me as a great piece of legislation. It's just another thing people are taught to love, even though it's a long list of things to treat symptoms rather than the disease. Make people equal under the law, and all the rest of it really becomes redundant at best... dangerous at worst.

The *Truth is not diverse, but requires diverse people to shed their primitive cultures to replace them with a new Formal culture. When our Founding Fathers declared a natural law, one which they formulated while in fellowship, they weren't doing so as members of the commoner community, the lowly people; rather, they were acting on the behalf representing the people. For just consider that they had already advanced their positions in society acheiving the ranking of "gentlemen."
This is the opposite of how modern science works. Modern science claims that it has figured out ontologically what exists in the dark, unknown world by the use of theoretical evidence while our Founding Fathers declared that the unknown Truth is perceived unalienably in our conscience while the cruelty we see directly with our senses in the observable world is deceitful.

*Our Founding Fathers declared a natural law. This ultimate political Truth is a collection of self evident "truths" and unalienable "natural rights." These self evident truths aren't clear outright, but "clear" to the extent that we don't need experts manipulating us towards it as such a reality exists not in the human mind, but in the soul, the conscience, or, what many like to refer to as, the heart. When taken together, this natural law becomes the people's Civil Purpose. This Civil Purpose married the people to "a more perfect union," a "necessary tyranny," while it transferred ownership of property and of the purse (the economy) over from the king to them. While the Truth cannot be altered, it needs no defense. The people's Civil Purpose supercedes all legal precedence, every past traditions, and every future event yet to occur.
 
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