What we're up against...good God

apropos said:
It's kind of incredible that people still take Marx (much less communism) seriously after we have seen the so-called "Great Experiment" tried time and time again in the 20th Century. And time and again, on a variety of continents and a wide berth of cultures, Marxism and Communism has failed - collapsed under its own weight.

It will not work because it cannot work. I had hoped tens of millions of deaths and decades of squandered effort would prove that.
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They just went underground into the AGW crusade.
 
ask them if they ever tried to start a business.'

And if so, ask them if regulations impeded the
growth and success of it!

And if they haven't, ask them if regulations have
kept them from trying to start one.
 
apropos said:
It's kind of incredible that people still take Marx (much less communism) seriously after we have seen the so-called "Great Experiment" tried time and time again in the 20th Century. And time and again, on a variety of continents and in a wide berth of cultures, Marxism and Communism has failed - collapsed under its own weight.

It will not work because it cannot work. I had hoped tens of millions of deaths and decades of squandered effort would prove that.
Click to expand...

Are you a bunny? Maybe you are a part of the "Great Experiment."

Think about it.
 
Catatonic said:
This is from another forum. Luckily there are quite a few Ron Paul supporters on this forum, and this is from a discussion of the parallels between Obama's policies and Marxism.

The nay-sayers were quickly forced to admit that while Obama doesn't openly support Marxism, his campaign platform is much more similar to the communist manifesto than the constitution.

Anyway, I just wanted to share this with you all. This is a post I made, the parts in bold are the comments that were added by the Obama people.

"I gotta disagree on some points.

Most of the things you're pointing your finger at capitalism for are a result of socialism. Do you really think we live in a capitalist country?

Yes, we do.

Most people aren't greedy, but they want to be able to take care of themselves. Even if you consider the average person to be greedy, which probably isn't inaccurate, you can't force them to stop being greedy and wanting more out of life.

"Human nature" isn't fixed, according to Marx. Our essence is our capacity for production for a means to live, but our nature is tied to that and our nature changes with how we produce. You're right to say you can't force people to change which is why Marx doesn't see communism as something that can be forced. Communism arises at the right time when the material conditions are right.

Capitalism doesn't force you to do anything. If we were truely capitalist you wouldn't see mega corporations dominating everything and treating people like slaves. The basis of capitalism is competition, if you don't want more from life enough to go the extra step to fight for it, then you won't get it. If you do, then you probably will. Real capitalism opens the door for a lot more entrepreneurship. The only way to kill competition and turn employees into quasi slaves is with over regulation, which is not an aspect of free market capitalism.

By definition working for wage labor is quasi slavery. The capitalist, the one who owns the means of production, must exploit your labor to receive some surplus capital. You do not receive that which is equal to what you produce. Not only that, you are alienated from your product- you do not own what you produce and you have no rights to say what happens to your product or where it goes.

Capitalism treats everyone equally in the respect that everyone has an equal opportunity to make something of themselves. The result of that is some will have more and some will have less. Without big brother to quash competition you'll have to fight to maintain any leverage.

Its kind of foolish to think everyone is equal under capitalism. Oppurtunities are highly contingent including what color or sex you are born. Why have this fetish for competition?

Marx is right, this will lead to division, but most people will fall somewhere in the middle of richness and poverty, and no one's position will be set in stone. The opportunity to change will always be there, for everyone.

How can you argue that capitalism turns you into a commodity? I think you're referring to the way things are currently in this country, which is somewhere between fascism and socialism.

You sell you[r labor.]

People can lose themselves in greed and become tools, but its not forced upon them the way it is with socialism. Robots work for free, people work based on incentive. Take that incentive away and you take the person out of the picture.

I think you are more pro socialist than I had expected, I was hoping for more of an unbiased opinion.

In a feudal state serfs do the work they're told to do, and in return they get protection, food, shelter. How is this so far from communism?"

Wage earning is slavery, forced equal distribution is freedom to these people. At least I got them to quit the charade and admit they support communism.

I didn't realize Americans had progressed this far to the left. :(
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doesn't this guy realize that the most crucial pillar in this system is central economic planning? Free market capitalism does not have a central banking model. So, how can he say we are a capitalistic society, when we have soviet style central economic planning?
 
aravoth said:
doesn't this guy realize that the most crucial pillar in this system is central economic planning? Free market capitalism does not have a central banking model. So, how can he say we are a capitalistic society, when we have soviet style central economic planning?
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The income tax is a plank in the manifesto too. To collect the interest payments for the central bank, I guess. :D
 
One Important Thing

aravoth said:
doesn't this guy realize that the most crucial pillar in this system is central economic planning? Free market capitalism does not have a central banking model. So, how can he say we are a capitalistic society, when we have soviet style central economic planning?
Click to expand...

These Marxist apologists for Obama also are missing a very important tenet of any free society--the right to have private property. The elimination of central economic planning isn't enough; the central government must not assume that it owns the means of production in any wise, which means that individuals and families are free heirs to pursue and own their own property that they may produce as much as they are willing and able to in order to meet and increase their surpluses in a fair, competitive economy, based on supply and demand of goods and services.
 
Theocrat said:
These Marxist apologists for Obama also are missing a very important tenet of any free society--the right to have private property. The elimination of central economic planning isn't enough; the central government must not assume that it owns the means of production in any wise, which means that individuals and families are free heirs to pursue and own their own property that they may produce as much as they are willing and able to in order to meet and increase their surpluses in a fair, competitive economy, based on supply and demand of goods and services.
Click to expand...

They can try and take it.
 
Good Point

aravoth said:
They can try and take it.
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True, and in a democracy, the majority can simply vote to take away the private property of others. That's usually what happens in nations with a strong Communist base.
 
I am reaching the conclusion that Government, and the administration of it, is proportional to the population.

Central planning does not work in a Country of 280 million, but it may work in Australia with a population of 18 million.

State by State. It makes sense.
 
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