What makes so many Republican voters pro-war?

[cheapseats]

So, a list of effective ways to combat (uh oh, a war term) the pro-war stance?
If those, particularly evangelical, persons can see that they are being co-opted by powerful groups to support wars...groups which in no way adhere to their belief systems, they may "wake up" and resent it...could create some blowback.
With two of the four GOP candidates being Catholic, I think Ron Paul's use of the tradition of the "just war theory" is a pretty good idea along this line. What is Rick Santorum's thoughts on this? Has he even thought about it?

It is hideous but nevertheless true, drone "efficiencies" antiquate conventional warfare.

"We" spent EIGHTY BILLION DOLLARS on "Intelligence" in 2010 ALONE, and it meant fuck-all in Tucson...with a Shooter with a PAPER TRAIL of mental instability.

NO AMOUNT OF MONEY can protect us from Wild Cards.

I mightily disapprove of IT'S THE ECONOMY, STUPID -- I believe IT'S ETHICS, STUPID -- but who am I to persuade hundreds of millions of people that Righteousness trumps an economic uptick?

We cannot AFFORD more war. It's a pity, considering we like it so well and are getting so "good" at lingering at war, but we simply cannot AFFORD it.

China does NOT intend to forgive our indebtedness to them. What DO we have to give them, if we don't have cash?

REAL ESTATE, that's what. And the corner on a couple of Emerging Markets, it would appear.

 

[GraniteHills]

Critical thinking is not taught in public schools. When teachers are coerced into "teaching toward tests" not only do students become roboticized, un-creative, stultified, and bored, but they don't think to look beneath surfaces of issues.

Even some colleges and universities, supposedly billing themselves as "teaching-oriented" or "liberal arts oriented," have shifted away from critical thinking and creative expression toward vocationalization. In the name of cash flow, they ignore their missions and thus churn out ill-prepared students.

I submit this is the biggest social problem facing our country, and leads to the kind of mentalities discussed in this thread. For what it's worth, I would re-title the thread to more accurately read "What makes so many Republican and Democrat voters pro-war?" R's might wear, generally speaking, their hawkishness more proudly on their sleeves, but let's not kid ourselves: D voters love themselves "interventions," "missions," and "operations."

The American robot, R or D, is so far divorced from the reality of violence -- and so far removed from being able to appreciate there are alternatives to violence -- that the violent status quo continues unchecked.

 

[cheapseats]

Critical thinking is not taught in public schools. When teachers are coerced into "teaching toward tests" not only do students become roboticized, un-creative, stultified, and bored, but they don't think to look beneath surfaces of issues.

Even some colleges and universities, supposedly billing themselves as "teaching-oriented" or "liberal arts oriented," have shifted away from critical thinking and creative expression toward vocationalization. In the name of cash flow, they ignore their missions and thus churn out ill-prepared students.

There is nothing wrong with vocationally-applied education. America NEEDS more people with PRODUCTIVE vocations. I believe TRADE SCHOOLS should have proper campuses, that Young 'Uns who are NOT going for "Liberal Arts" or MBA's and JD's and PhD's still have the transitional living experience of BEING IN COLLEGE.

Critical thinking is not so much taught as ALLOWED AND ENCOURAGED vs. DISCOURAGED OR PROHIBITED.

Critical Thinking DOES identify premises steeped in illogic. That simply won't DO.

I submit this is the biggest social problem facing our country, and leads to the kind of mentalities discussed in this thread.

The Prime Minister of super-successful Singapore makes a compelling case for excellent Public Education.

For what it's worth, I would re-title the thread to more accurately read "What makes so many Republican and Democrat voters pro-war?" R's might wear, generally speaking, their hawkishness more proudly on their sleeves, but let's not kid ourselves: D voters love themselves "interventions," "missions," and "operations."

The American robot, R or D, is so far divorced from the reality of violence -- and so far removed from being able to appreciate there are alternatives to violence -- that the violent status quo continues unchecked.

It IS both "sides". Which is why ANTI WAR plays so well in the Middle.

People either believe that one "side" or the other prevails at any given time, or they realize that NEITHER "side" runs the show. Big Money runs the show. ALWAYS. Those birds of a feather are totally BIPARTISAN and extremely FOCUSED and incomprehensibly POWERFUL.

And unless it is an orderly passing of the baton, NO ONE gives up power without a fight.

 

[GraniteHills]

There is nothing wrong with vocationally-applied education.

I wasn't arguing against vocational education; far from it. I was pointing out that colleges with particular liberal missions are moving away from those missions and producing the type of student (not prepared critically or creatively) they didn't initially set out to produce.

 

[cheapseats]

I wasn't arguing against vocational education; far from it. I was pointing out that colleges with particular liberal missions are moving away from those missions and producing the type of student (not prepared critically or creatively) they didn't initially set out to produce.

Sorry, agreed.

Along your same line, I will suggest that Americans need to get GOOD & PISSED at Mercenaries masquerading as Educators, who accept Foreign Students (who pay sky-high tuition, in cash) over solid "B" American Students who CANNOT pay full fare or who pay "only" in-state tuition.

But that is secondary to Americans needing to get good & pissed, PERIOD. At The Deciders. Academicians are NOT The Deciders. Democrats & Republicans are Implementers & Enforcers, NOT Deciders.

 

[Captain Shays]

We can blame the neocons and Democrats all we want and despite the fact that Obama definitely wasn't the peace candidate, he sold himself as such and was bought as such which was a big reason of how he got nominated.

It was 9/11. Even some green party voters and libertarians turned into hawks the moment that happened. The media sold it as an attack of islam on free and propserous America which the people just ate up. And because a Republican president felt he needed to go war at the time, it was considered to be 'the Republican thing to do', especially when Iraq happened too.

Also keep in mind that after 9/11, people were blood thirsty and the government was obliged to go along. Which they and the military industrial complex gleefully did.

Blind partisan allegiance over rational thought is to blame.

Sorry man. It ain't "blood thirsty" to want justice for an attack on our country.
Outside any conspiracy theories, or the influence of the military industrial complex the fact is that we were attacked and a lot of innocent people died and justice was called for.



Rev9

 

[cheapseats]

Sorry man. It ain't "blood thirsty" to want justice for an attack on our country.
Outside any conspiracy theories, or the influence of the military industrial complex the fact is that we were attacked and a lot of innocent people died and justice was called for.

Beggin' yer pardon, BLOOD-THIRST was absolutely evident when our tanks rumbled across that desert to pummel Baghdad...which was NOT the culprit behind 9/11. Embedded journalists, prime-time extravaganza...yippy-ai-oh-kye-aye, motherfuckers!

GENERIC PAYBACK was forefront in people's minds, NOT Justice.

 

[Captain Shays]

Yes there are neocons and the neocon influence on radio and TV (Fox). Yes there is a misconception among a lot of Christians about our role in the world, foreign policy, social programs etc.

The argument that I have found to be very effective however against the arguments of Republicans, neocons, anti Bush war Democrats/liberals is simply pointing out the history of our foreign policy and the Constitution.

FACT--Democrats were the original war party. The police the world party. The interventionist party. The one world government party.

FACT--Democrats were the party in power during the start of the Indian War and Jackson sent the Cherokee on the trail of tears.
During the start of the 1st & 2nd Mexican Wars.
Half the Civil War and they were on the side that wanted to keep slavery in place
Bolivia
WWI,
WWII--It was a Democrat who was the first and ONLY time in world history who nuked civilian populations in two different cities.
Korea our first undeclared war against a country that didn't attack us or threaten us with the use of our UN treaty as Truman's authority to circumvent Congress and the Constitution.
Vitenam
Bosnia, Somalia, Serbia, Kosovo, Albania.
Bill Clinton had 30,000 covert troops in Columbia for 6 years. Have you ever seen what our country did to the U'Wa tribe for the sake of Al Gore's Occidental Petroleum? Have you ever heard of Fusarin a biological defoilant developed in our weapons labs a cousin to Agent Orange? These events demolish the "Bush is a war monger" meme
Then Clinton kept us in Iraq for 8 years maintaining the no fly zones and the sanctions that killed 500,000 Iraqi's. If or when Democrats doubt you, just direct them to the youtube video "Albright Says It Was Worth It" where MAD Mad Albright admitted the sanctions killed 500,000 on 60 Minutes with Leslie Stahl.
Then we have Uganda, Libya, Somalia, Suden and Pakistan under Obama.

Democrats were the party who pushed through the League of Nations and the United Nations.
That argument is effective with Evangelical Christians who are concerned about the prophesies about a one world government at the end of the age.

Then there are these quotes from our founding fathers that the old style conservatives adhered to but the progressives embraced. I like to equate progr4essives with neoconservatives because they are progressives at least in foreign policy. Modern Republicans reject Ron Paul and the founding fathers yet embrace Woodrow Wilson's foreign policy.

By showing these quotes and pointing out this history you may not convince them right away to change their minds but you will plant seeds even if you embarrass them which you WILL by this argument because the FACT Is, that the modern GOP so called "conservatives" are NOT following the foreign policy of the old style conservatives or the founding fathers but they are following the foreign policy of progressive Democrats like Woodrow Wilson



Rev9

 

[Captain Shays]

Beggin' yer pardon, BLOOD-THIRST was absolutely evident when our tanks rumbled across that desert to pummel Baghdad...which was NOT the culprit behind 9/11. Embedded journalists, prime-time extravaganza...yippy-ai-oh-kye-aye, motherfuckers!

GENERIC PAYBACK was forefront in people's minds, NOT Justice.

When we're attacked payback IS justice. Tanks going into Bagdad didn't happen until later and that wasn't justice. I am not advocating for war in Iraq but I sure as hell wanted the heads of the people behind the attacks on 911





Rev9

 

[Captain Shays]

from an adamant dispensationalist website:




from Laurence Vance:






notice the parallels to the dispensationalist's rant and Vance's checklist. i suggest visiting Lew Rockwell .com and reading Vance. he has a very good grasp on the subject.

Vance's book "Christianity and War" is also a GREAT book




Rev9

 

[flightlesskiwi]

It is hideous but nevertheless true, drone "efficiencies" antiquate conventional warfare.

it's not so much that drones antiquate conventional warfare-- although, the leadership likes to push that (false) idea. sure, they "enhance" it, but i digress. imho, drones solidify and justify the idea of our modern perpetual state of war.

the doubly unnerving part about that is, as everyone knows, the drone AOR is overflowing from Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Libya, East Central Africa, Somalia, the Indian Ocean and quickly spilling into the skies above us here in the US.

and the (self-proclaimed or unknowing) neoconservatives quiver with orgasmic glee.

 

[Matthanuf06]

it's not so much that drones antiquate conventional warfare-- although, the leadership likes to push that (false) idea. sure, they "enhance" it, but i digress. imho, drones solidify and justify the idea of our modern perpetual state of war.

the doubly unnerving part about that is, as everyone knows, the drone AOR is overflowing from Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Libya, East Central Africa, Somalia, the Indian Ocean and quickly spilling into the skies above us here in the US.

and the (self-proclaimed or unknowing) neoconservatives quiver with orgasmic glee.

Drones are great. The issue is whether or not they are being used in a just war. I guess I sort of understand the argument that drones can make it easier for the public to buy into an unjust war. However the issue in that case is the public and the people pushing the message. A drone is just a tool in the tool belt of war. In a just war, I want my side with the most tools. Especially when it saves lives on our side

 

[cheapseats]

When we're attacked payback IS justice. Tanks going into Bagdad didn't happen until later and that wasn't justice. I am not advocating for war in Iraq but I sure as hell wanted the heads of the people behind the attacks on 911

Yeah yeah the latter bold but, as you say, of all the beheading we might logically have done, it wasn't it Iraq.

I resurrect this thread not to quarrel, but as it pertains to the debate.

If I slug YOU, and you haul off and whack GraniteHills, you can lamely claim PAYBACK=JUSTICE in the big/macro picture. You were struck, and you struck. I'm WITH ya, bein' DONE with turning cheeks...but there is the WRONG SMACK-EE thing.

Without going off into the rough or a sand-trap, Ron Paul can play Elder Statesman here, and remind America that -- whatever our FEELINGS about Iran, and however PROVOCATIVE Iran's posturing -- we do NOT need for our safety NOR CAN WE AFFORD to engage Iran. If Iran gets a nuke, Israel with have, WHAT, 300 times as many? The more advanced Iran becomes, as evidenced by building a nuke, the more INVESTED they are in not getting blown to smithereens.

#UnitedNations & #IAEA Inspectors have said that, bluster aside, Iran is NOT presently geared for nuclear weaponry. They can no more retool overnight than WE can. If/when they do, Israel & America will be second and third to know.

As a man who has not varied his exhortations with the political winds, he can LIBERALLY remind American Taxpayers and American Loved Ones about #YellowCakeUranium and #WeaponsOfMassDestruction.

We can keep a careful eye on THEM, the same way "we" keep a careful eye on US. The less we get sucked into anything ANYWHERE, the better able we remain to respond with vigor WHEREVER, WHENEVER.

After everything...our astonishing debt, our embarrassing downgrade...Obama's budget calls for INCREASED spending. I mean, that's just not even getting SERIOUS about whittling down our debt. ANY rationalization exposes the Inflation Hoax.

Do the people with maxed out credit cards who are falling behind in their payments get their credit limit increased? Oh wait, what? They get OTHER cards with which to pay off abused cards?

Okay, do we think maybe Greece and several other European nations could have DONE MORE TO SPEND LESS, SOONER RATHER THAN LATER?

 

[Danke]

Sorry man. It ain't "blood thirsty" to want justice for an attack on our country.
Outside any conspiracy theories, or the influence of the military industrial complex the fact is that we were attacked and a lot of innocent people died and justice was called for.
Rev9

Sure, but what would have been a proper response? Turn the other cheek and deal with the fact there was a reason for the attack? Negotiate? Everyone knows we are strong and could nuke any county off the map if we so chose to.

We lost a lot more by not showing restraint. IMO.

 

[TheCaliforniaLife]

I think a lot of people are pro-war because offensiveness is a perception of strength. People don't want to seem like the weakling in the national sphere. However, what we need to train people to understand is that our national domestic strength is declining. We are closing bases here to open them up in other countries? Really? Even Sun Tzu, the great military strategist, was against protracted wars. That is what we have. We have endless extended wars.

 

[HigherVision]

I honestly think that a lot of so-called "hawkish" people are actually giant pussies in their own lives

There we go. Also the fact that most of their institutions of media and think tanks are run by Zionist Jews who are savvy and know how to use them for their own gain.