What is Your Position on Global Warming / Climate Change?

So now they have settled on climate change so now any movement in either direction can be blamed on CO2 and we need those carbon credits that Al Gore has been saving up to sell us.

First of all, no, we do not need anybody's carbon credits, or taxes, for the matter. Whether you accept the scientific conclusions do not mean you must accept regulations as a result.

Next,
Please refrain from posting PRATT http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Point_r...thousand_times


1. No, the scientific consensus in 70s was NOT forecasting a mini ice age (it was media sensationalism)
http://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-...s-in-1970s.htm


2. Climate change was not a recent Orwellian change in terms, what do you think IPCC founded in 1988 stands for?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/clim...al-warming.htm
 
Who said that?

Lorenz

In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependency on initial conditions in which a small change at one place in a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state. The name of the effect, coined by Edward Lorenz, is derived from the theoretical example of the details of a hurricane (exact time of formation, exact path taken) being influenced by minor perturbations equating to the flapping of the wings of a distant butterfly several weeks earlier. Lorenz discovered the effect when he observed that runs of his weather model with initial condition data that was rounded in a seemingly inconsequential manner would fail to reproduce the results of runs with the unrounded initial condition data. A very small change in initial conditions had created a significantly different outcome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect
 
If our impact is significant, I'm pretty sure the government will do all the wrong things about it. They will not, for example, stop using afterburners every weekend training weekend warriors to fly obsolete fighter jets (jet engines not only burning a hell of a lot of fuel, but dumping their exhaust high in the atmosphere rather than down where the plants are). And they will make the rich richer and the poor poorer in the process. The government plays at developing alternatives, subsidizing corn squeezin' for fuel when there are far better alternatives, and all the while fights (with jet aircraft) all of the Middle East for their oil.

That said, we aren't doing anything that one good eruption from Krakatoa won't more than neutralize, at least for a couple of years.

We like to be arrogant enough to think we are the major impact on the earth. We aren't. But government will play on that desire, and use it to screw us. I don't care to be a party to that. And so long as government is playing this game, I don't think it will be possible to know what our net effect is.

We need to make intelligent decisions about this. We won't.
 
If our impact is significant, I'm pretty sure the government will do all the wrong things about it. They will not, for example, stop using afterburners every weekend training weekend warriors to fly obsolete fighter jets (jet engines not only burning a hell of a lot of fuel, but dumping their exhaust high in the atmosphere rather than down where the plants are). And they will make the rich richer and the poor poorer in the process. The government plays at developing alternatives, subsidizing corn squeezin' for fuel when there are far better alternatives, and all the while fights (with jet aircraft) all of the Middle East for their oil.

That said, we aren't doing anything that one good eruption from Krakatoa won't more than neutralize, at least for a couple of years.

We like to be arrogant enough to think we are the major impact on the earth. We aren't. But government will play on that desire, and use it to screw us. I don't care to be a party to that. And so long as government is playing this game, I don't think it will be possible to know what our net effect is.

We need to make intelligent decisions about this. We won't.

The government can play the game, but you don't need to.

i can't change the government's mind, but I don't need to lie about the science to reject its regulations.
 
The government can play the game, but you don't need to.

i can't change the government's mind, but I don't need to lie about the science to reject its regulations.

I find it camouflages the science so effectively I can't make head nor tail out of it. If we could drag the government kicking and screaming out of the scientists' wallets, we might be able to figure out what is going on and what to do about it. Until then, we're mushrooms. We're kept in the dark and fed shit.
 
I find it camouflages the science so effectively I can't make head nor tail out of it. If we could drag the government kicking and screaming out of the scientists' wallets, we might be able to figure out what is going on and what to do about it. Until then, we're mushrooms. We're kept in the dark and fed shit.

do you know this skepticism to ALL parts of science? or just climate?
 
do you know this skepticism to ALL parts of science? or just climate?

Do I know this skepticism? I don't even know what you mean by asking if I know this skepticism.

I apply this skepticism to all science and pseudo-science which involves more variables than we can possibly account for (psychology fits that description), and take a very careful look at all science that is seriously overfunded by the government or other entities which have an agenda.

Don't you?
 
We burn ungodly joules of fossilized shit daily,

that would have otherwise been trapped underground for eons.

I don't give a shit about carbon.

If a butterfly can flap its wings and cause a typhoon,

the ongoing fire alone undoubtedly makes the climate different.


The only quick things I can think of that I want my government to do about it:

Deregulate the auto industry.
Stop subsidizing the oil and electric industries.
Stop pissing out fuel on foreign empire building.
Outlaw building codes.
Provide tax breaks to citizens before BP Exxon and Shell
Stop providing government financed indemnification to energy companies
End EPA permits for environmental destruction and allow individuals to sue for damages.
Defund the DOE
End the "emmissions" regulations for wood burning appliances

I guess I could go on and on...

Fires only change temperatures in their immediate environment.

By the way, the butterfly effect is a myth.
 
Please read the following carefully before making any replies.

I am curious to know the positions of those active on the forum with respect to Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) (otherwise known as Climate Change). I am interested to know largely because I've found that there exists ambiguity surrounding the issue, and this includes a general vagueness in the terms used to describe the (alleged) phenomenon. Therefore, I provide definitions in the hope of achieving clarity. Please try to operate within these definitions.

AGW is the phenomenon by which the green house gas (GHG) emissions associated with human activities (including but not limited to CO2 derived from the combustion of fossil fuels) is increasing the net concentration of GHG's in the atmosphere. The resulting dynamic acts to increase average global temperatures to levels higher than they would achieve otherwise (i.e. without the emissions). In any case, the climate is affected by the process. Note that this definition does not imply that our GHG emissions will necessarily cause a warming trend. Rather, it implies that it could cause a warming trend, merely contribute to a warming trend, or perhaps it might only mitigate a cooling trend.

By this definition, it's possible for many to accept the AGW position, yet take widely disparate views. For example, one proponent of AGW might take the position that climate science is young and incomplete. Therefore, we do not yet have the understanding nor the tools with which to make accurate forecasts. Those on this end of the AGW spectrum advise against any interventions (governmental or otherwise) designed to alleviate the AGW dynamic. Conversely, those on the other end of the AGW spectrum might argue that the science is settled, and that it indicates GHG emissions derived from human activities to be affecting climate in ways that will prove detrimental to ecosystems and life on Earth in general. Among these AGW proponents include those who advocate for aggressive governmental interventions including all manner of taxes and regulations, as well as those who do not advocate for such interventions by considering them unlikely to have a net benefit. At the far end of the spectrum are those who argue that it's too late - our GHG emissions to date will cause the imminent extinction of the human race along with other species.

Now, I realize this is a broad definition. However, I selected it because I've come to understand that the oft-cited "consensus" among scientists on the AGW issue can include individuals with positions that lie anywhere along this spectrum. By contrast, there are those who deny emphatically that GHG emissions by humans can have any effect whatever on climate.

So, what position do you take:
(1) Do you accept the AGW position, or
(2) Do you deny it categorically.

... furthermore, if (1), then where on the spectrum does your position lie? Also, if (2), then what evidence might convince you otherwise (if any)?

NOTE: Please refrain from engaging in dialog during the course of this thread as I hope to limit its scope.

Excellent post.

I would answer #1. I DO believe that science has shown that measurable increases in GHG has the potential to impact the global climate in significant ways. Venus is a good example of the extremes of GHG accumulation. I DO believe that humanity's vast consumption of fossil fuels adds significantly to increases in GHG in the atmosphere. I do NOT believe, however, that science (or scientists) has (have) been able to present convincing evidence to show that there has been a measurable increase in global temperatures, increases in 'extreme' weather, hurricanes, ice melts, etc. The increase in GHG has the potential, but has not yet.
 
Fires only change temperatures in their immediate environment.

By the way, the butterfly effect is a myth.
Under chaos theory there is a critical dependence on initial conditions (mathematically out to several decimal digits). Hence the butterfly effect. Minor differences in initial conditions often produce major differences later.
 
Last edited:
By the way, the butterfly effect is a myth.

Its hardly a myth; it is the very reason why meteorologist create "ensemble forecasts" to provide probabilities of rain. If you've ever done any computer programming you run into instances where small changes in code which one would expect to have negligible effect actually skew results in totally unexpected ways. In building bitcoin trading bots I run into these types of things all the time. I have a good friend that works for NWS building climate models; butterfly effect is a very real thing that is very well studied by people in the "forecasting" fields.
 
I do believe it's happening like the scientists say it is. But unless you live in a cabin in the woods with no electricity or modern technology then you shouldn't lambast anyone for promoting global warming because you drive a pickup or whatever.
 
We burn ungodly joules of fossilized shit daily,

that would have otherwise been trapped underground for eons.

I don't give a shit about carbon.

If a butterfly can flap its wings and cause a typhoon,

the ongoing fire alone undoubtedly makes the climate different.


The only quick things I can think of that I want my government to do about it:

Deregulate the auto industry.
Stop subsidizing the oil and electric industries.
Stop pissing out fuel on foreign empire building.
Outlaw building codes.
Provide tax breaks to citizens before BP Exxon and Shell
Stop providing government financed indemnification to energy companies
End EPA permits for environmental destruction and allow individuals to sue for damages.
Defund the DOE
End the "emmissions" regulations for wood burning appliances

I guess I could go on and on...

You made many points that I would have made.
 
And the Hockey Stick algorithm is a scam.

so is the "fossil" fuel theory. imo.

it is now clear to me, that these substances are not "special" to life or former living life forms.
coal being the obvious exception. (and peat,etc.)
 
so is the "fossil" fuel theory. imo.

it is now clear to me, that these substances are not "special" to life or former living life forms.
coal being the obvious exception. (and peat,etc.)

it doesn't need to be special to life for it to be limited in quantity though, right?
 
Back
Top