What is your main issue?

[LibertyEagle]

So a chemical reaction between cells=life. Thank you for the clarification .

That is not what I said, but whatever floats your boat. Perhaps you should go purchase a book on human reproduction.

 

[surf]

back on topic: war

my second issue is getting godamn Comcast to provide Fox Soccer Channel in HD

all of you discussing issues about conception of life or whatever the hell your discussing should all go to the chat room right now and let this thread go back to what is the most important issue.

 

[Vessol]

I cut it off at the beginning. Before the egg is fertilized it is not and cannot be a chicken.
The seed/tree is a little more iffy though. It makes me think of implantation vs fertilization, so maybe it should be considered a tree even unplanted.

It isn't about potential or not, but about what it is. A fertilized egg, chicken or human, IS chicken or human. It isn't potentially that, it already is that just at the earliest stage of development.

An unfertilized egg may have the potential, but until it is fertilized it isn't human life anymore than semen on its own is. That unique DNA must be created. Which of course is why yeah, I support the seed of the tree should be considered a tree planted or not, just at the earliest stage.

But there's still a chance that the unfertilized egg could be fertilized, right?

Just because an egg is fertilized does not guarantee life, all sorts of things could happen. 50% of human pregnancies end up in spontaneous natural abortions, usually very early on.

 

[Vessol]

Well, Vessol, I sincerely hope you put a cap on it if and when Ron Paul runs again. Because personally, I always found it pretty disgusting to see people who claimed to support Ron Paul so strongly and then go stab him in the back by pushing arguments that ran contrary to his platform all over these forums and elsewhere. We lost more than a few people because of it.

Why all the hostility? I recognize common goals, but I have doubts?

Am I allowed to have doubts or are those not allowed in your viewpoint?

I know many people have doubts about my own ideas, but I don't attack them, rather I debate them civilly.

That is not what I said, but whatever floats your boat. Perhaps you should go purchase a book on human reproduction.

I'm no expert on the subject, but it is a chemical reaction. Basically when one spermatozoa interacts with the egg and penetrates it, the egg gives off an electrical charge that doesn't allow other spermatozoa to enter.

I'd consider this a chemical reaction.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Why all the hostility? I recognize common goals, but I have doubts?

Am I allowed to have doubts or are those not allowed in your viewpoint?

I know many people have doubts about my own ideas, but I don't attack them, rather I debate them civilly.

Sure you are, Vessol. I guess I've just been around here a long time and saw a bunch of things happen during the last election and a variety of things, since. Go ahead and debate it all you want. But, please understand if I don't partake. I've seen that topic debated ad nauseum. Also, please understand that when most of the rest of the country is having trouble even understanding why they would be better off with far less government and keeping them within the bounds of the Constitution, it often confuses them when they see Ron Paul supporters advocating for tossing out the Constitution and a variety of other things. Anyway, that is where my frustration lies.

I apologize though, if it seemed to you like I was biting your head off.

I'm no expert on the subject, but it is a chemical reaction. Basically when one spermatozoa interacts with the egg and penetrates it, the egg gives off an electrical charge that doesn't allow other spermatozoa to enter.

I'd consider this a chemical reaction.

Okey dokey. But, the key ingredient is the sperm and that is what differentiates the fertilized egg from an unfertilized egg.

 

[FrankRep]

So a chemical reaction between cells=life. Thank you for the clarification .

Just remember, Ron Paul supports the idea that Life begins at conception.

Ron Paul, CPAC 2011 Straw Poll Winner


H.R.1094 - Sanctity of Life Act of 2007

Sponsor: Ron Paul

(1) human life shall be deemed to exist from conception, without regard to race, sex, age, health, defect, or condition of dependency; and
(2) the term "person" shall include all such human life. Recognizes that each state has authority to protect the lives of unborn children residing in the jurisdiction of that state . Amends the federal judicial code to remove Supreme Court and district court jurisdiction to review cases arising out of any statute, ordinance, rule, regulation, or practice, or any act interpreting such a measure, on the grounds that such measure:

(1) protects the rights of human persons between conception and birth; or
(2) prohibits, limits, or regulates the performance of abortions or the provision of public funds, facilities, personnel, or other assistance for abortions. Makes this Act applicable to any case pending on the date of enactment.

 

[ChaosControl]

But there's still a chance that the unfertilized egg could be fertilized, right?

Just because an egg is fertilized does not guarantee life, all sorts of things could happen. 50% of human pregnancies end up in spontaneous natural abortions, usually very early on.

And if it is fertilized, it will be life. As that is when the unique DNA is set.
And yes a fertilized egg DOES guarantee life, it may end early in development, but it is life at that point on.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Just remember, Ron Paul supports the idea that Life begins at conception.

Just remember, it's important to think for yourself, before drawing conclusions.

 

[ClayTrainor]

And if it is fertilized, it will be life. As that is when the unique DNA is set.
And yes a fertilized egg DOES guarantee life, it may end early in development, but it is life at that point on.

So, if someone artificially inseminated and egg in a petri dish in a lab, would you claim what's in that petri dish has the same rights as a full grown human?

If they accidentally drop the petri dish and kill the embryo, are they guilty of killing a human being, and should be tried in the same way as if they accidently killed me?

 

[ChaosControl]

So, if someone artificially inseminated and egg in a petri dish in a lab, would you claim what's in that petri dish has the same rights as a full grown human?

If they accidentally drop the petri dish and kill the embryo, are they guilty of killing a human being?

Yes. It is unique life at that point.
Although I oppose artificial insemination. If you cannot reproduce naturally, I think you should adopt instead of finding other ways to get pregnany.

 

[LibertyEagle]

So, if someone artificially inseminated and egg in a petri dish in a lab, would you claim what's in that petri dish has the same rights as a full grown human?

Now, it's a "full grown human"? Do you really want to lay this opportunity at the feet of the government for them to decide who is and who is not, worthy of life and liberty?

That is what it is coming to, you know.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Just remember, it's important to think for yourself, before drawing conclusions.

Since this is Ron Paul Forums, I think he was just making sure that all the people viewing this thread understand Ron Paul's view on the subject.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Yes. It is unique life at that point.

It's unique life, sure (so is a cockroach), but that's not the point of my question. Is what's in that petri dish equivalent to a human being, like myself? If someone accidentally drops the petri dish, you think that's equivalent to someone accidentally killing me?

Although I oppose artificial insemination. If you cannot reproduce naturally, I think you should adopt instead of finding other ways to get pregnany.

And do you want the state to enforce that opinion as well?

 

[ClayTrainor]

Now, it's a "full grown human"? Do you really want to lay this opportunity at the feet of the government for them to decide who is and who is not, worthy of life and liberty?

Of course not, how could you possibly get that from what I'm saying? It's the anti-abortionists who advocate state intervention in these decisions, I want the state OUT of it.

I also don't want the state deciding what women can do with their own bodies.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Since this is Ron Paul Forums, I think he was just making sure that all the people viewing this thread understand Ron Paul's view on the subject.

That's fine, and I'm making the point that it's important to think things through yourself, before coming to a conclusion because of someone elses opinion.

 

[Vessol]

That's fine, and I'm making the point that it's important to think things through yourself, before coming to a conclusion because of someone elses opinion.

Yup, otherwise it's a logical fallacy called "appeal to authority".

I don't let Ron Paul shape what I believe, I like Ron Paul because he shares and he pushes for the things I believe.

 

[erowe1]

It's unique life, sure (so is a cockroach), but that's not the point of my question. Is what's in that petri dish equivalent to a human being, like myself? If someone accidentally drops the petri dish, you think that's equivalent to someone accidentally killing me?

Yes.

But I can understand why some people are unsure about a case like that. And if someone is unsure, then they should treat that embryo the same way they would treat something else whose humanity they're not sure of, like if they're hunting and the see something move, but can't tell if it's a man or a deer.

 

[Vessol]

While I lean pro-life, my main issue is this:

How are you going to enforce any ban on abortions? What's stopping a black market that cater to the demand that some will continue to have for abortions?

 

[ChaosControl]

It's unique life, sure (so is a cockroach), but that's not the point of my question. Is what's in that petri dish equivalent to a human being, like myself? If someone accidentally drops the petri dish, you think that's equivalent to someone accidentally killing me?

It is the same. A fertilize human egg is a unique human life at its earliest stage of development and should receive full rights and recognize the same as an infant or adult receives.

And do you want the state to enforce that opinion as well?

I'm not sure, but I definitely would prefer it not existing. I can see the potential need to prevent it since it can result in frozen embryos that are eventually discarded.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Yes.

But I can understand why some people are unsure about a case like that.

I'll admit that it makes no sense to me. I do not view a freshly planted seed as a tree. And I do not view a bunch of sexual discharge in a petri dish, as a human being. Maybe i'm crazy.